Reminder - Price increase in 15 days. Details please read...

[dgbrown]

Take shot at answering the question Cody - why should existing customers pay more ? And why should they pay more during a compressed period of time and then closed out ?

Existing customers can certainly choose whether they want to purchase a cheaper controller now' date=' and purchase separate licenses, or wait, and get the licenses included with the higher pricing.

My personal ([b']not company) opinion, as I haven't asked anyone in sales / marketing / management, is that the price was going to increase regardless of licenses, as the HC-800 was underpriced to begin with (i.e. compared with the functionality and price of the HC1000), and manufacturing prices are rising for many manufactured goods right now.

I personally think Control4 just decided that along with that necessary increase, it'd be nice if customers didn't have to be 'nickel and dimed' for licenses on top of that. It simplifies it for dealers, end users, and unfortunately, yes, it makes it *more* complicated for existing customers, and possibly more expensive come upgrade time.

I am sorry about that.

Again, that's just my personal view, not official company policy.

RyanE

[dgbrown]

I get that Ryan - the hc800 was definitely underpriced, no question. But if you catch the proposed math in the edited section of my post at the bottom - why should existing customers pay more ? Why not offer a two license bundle to existing hc800 customers at the same net cost of the "new pricing with licenses" ?

[thecodeman]

Take shot at answering the question Cody - why should existing customers pay more ? And why should they pay more during a compressed period of time and then closed out ?

I think that's what's on the table here. Is there another perspective or position that existing customer should consider ?

Edited to add: in good faith ill answer your question, because the value proposition is questionable - I do own several TP's in case you're wondering. Though the idea of being closed out is a motivator - but not at a premium.

To be clear, take the price of an HC800 today, plus the cost of the intercom license, plus the cost of a MY Home site license - does that cost more or less than $1,500 ?

I'm saying if its something I wanted or needed I would have it already. Of course this affects fence-sitters and people who might change their mind later. However IMO , technology and early adoption are not cheap or forgiving hobbies.

Yes, the 800 and intercom and my home cost more than $1500 today. It's also cheaper and more functionality than the hc-1000 was at $2600, even after the price increase or before with three separate skus.

Again, I don't speak for a dealer or control4. I do have control4 in my home including an 800 and a site license. This announcement doesn't affect me as I'm not interested in intercom and don't have touch panels or door station. If I did, personally I would already have the intercom license. Will the price increase if I add a new controller after June or whenever? Yes. So I take that into consideration and budget accordingly. Everyone's system is different so I was wondering why if you wanted it you didn't have it already.

[cashmoney]

Overpriced? So the dealers were mad that they weren't making enough at 50% margin if they sold at MSRP? Yes my dealer shared his cost with me and at $999 he made a good chunk of change on a computer that's old tech. If you saying his price was to low then shame on C4 for not being able to properly price their products and this would point to poor management.

Also while other sectors are debundiling because the consumer hates it you guys decide to bundle.

The Automation and CI markets are delusional.

[dgbrown]

Take shot at answering the question Cody - why should existing customers pay more ? And why should they pay more during a compressed period of time and then closed out ?

I think that's what's on the table here. Is there another perspective or position that existing customer should consider ?

Edited to add: in good faith ill answer your question' date=' because the value proposition is questionable - I do own several TP's in case you're wondering. Though the idea of being closed out is a motivator - but not at a premium.

To be clear, take the price of an HC800 today, plus the cost of the intercom license, plus the cost of a MY Home site license - does that cost more or less than $1,500 ?[/quote']

I'm saying if its something I wanted or needed I would have it already. Of course this affects fence-sitters and people who might change their mind later. However IMO , technology and early adoption are not cheap or forgiving hobbies.

Yes, the 800 and intercom and my home cost more than $1500 today. It's also cheaper and more functionality than the hc-1000 was at $2600, even after the price increase or before with three separate skus.

Again, I don't speak for a dealer or control4. I do have control4 in my home including an 800 and a site license. This announcement doesn't affect me as I'm not interested in intercom and don't have touch panels or door station. If I did, personally I would already have the intercom license. Will the price increase if I add a new controller after June or whenever? Yes. So I take that into consideration and budget accordingly. Everyone's system is different so I was wondering why if you wanted it you didn't have it already.

To be clear, When I talk about questionable value I have several beefs with these licenses that have led me to have the perspective that they are half baked and or not adequately supported, at a premium price:

My Home

@ there was no unity in the UI and functionality - there should be.

@ installations were left to stand up Vpn's or port forward for remote access

Intercom

@ underutilized in most environments

@ no sip support - locked into proprietary hardware.

[RyanE]

Overpriced? So the dealers were mad that they weren't making enough at 50% margin if they sold at MSRP? Yes my dealer ... made a good chunk of change on a computer that's old tech. If you saying his price was to low then shame on C4 for not being able to properly price their products and this would point to poor management.

Dealers didn't push Control4 for a price increase. Not sure where that idea came from.

I'm also not sure what you're talking about as being 'old tech'. That may have been a somewhat valid argument with the HC-1000, which was mostly commodity hardware (PC motherboard and HD), it's certainly not the case with the HC-800 or HC-250, which are custom hardware and designs, from the 'ground up', as are most if not all of Control4's products.

Control4 may have properly priced the HC800 from the start, but from what I've seen, costs for this type of custom, comparitively small volume manufacturing have been going up, and Control4 correcting for current market/production conditions points to good management.

As far as dealer margin, dealers do need margin to stay in business, although your quoted margin is not even close to accurate across Control4's product line.

Also while other sectors are debundiling because the consumer hates it you guys decide to bundle.

I don't really see the point of arguing that the MyHome / Intercom licenses are overpriced, and then also arguing that including them with a controller is a bad idea... I think it's a nice thing to do, with unfortunate timing (with the controller price going up).

As far as customers liking or not liking 'bundling', this isn't really 'bundling', IMHO, it's simplification of the product line and sales pitch. If licenses were never sold separately (i.e. were just included in the cost of the controller from the beginning), there would not be this argument.

The Automation and CI markets are delusional.

Delusional or not, it all comes down to whether it is worth it to you or not. If it isn't, why are you in here complaining about it?

If it *is* worth it to you, there's definitely a price to being 'cutting edge'.

RyanE

P.S. As stated previously, these are *my* views, and I most definitely don't run the company or make pricing decisions.

[RyanE]

@ there was no unity in the UI and functionality - there should be.

Yes, unity of the UI between the Flash Navigator, the iOS and Android apps is certainly something that is currently lacking, and is something that Control4 has been working on. This makes more sense when you remember that the iOS and Android apps were developed by 3rd parties (ControlUI). The consistency of the platform is something that will continue to improve over time.

@ installations were left to stand up Vpn's or port forward for remote access

Yes, this is lacking at the moment, and has been a top request since the apps were released.

@ Intercom underutilized in most environments ... no sip support - locked into proprietary hardware

Yes, but with the Intercom license included, it may be something that will get more traction.

SIP support is something that we have mentioned at CEDIA and other shows as something Control4 is working towards with the Intercom implementation.

RyanE

[dgbrown]

@ there was no unity in the UI and functionality - there should be.

Yes' date=' unity of the UI between the Flash Navigator, the iOS and Android apps is certainly something that is currently lacking, and is something that Control4 has been working on. This makes more sense when you remember that the iOS and Android apps were developed by 3rd parties (ControlUI). The consistency of the platform is something that will continue to improve over time.

@ installations were left to stand up Vpn's or port forward for remote access

Yes, this is lacking at the moment, and has been a top request since the apps were released.

@ Intercom underutilized in most environments ... no sip support - locked into proprietary hardware

Yes, but with the Intercom license included, it may be something that will get more traction.

SIP support is something that we have mentioned at CEDIA and other shows as something Control4 is working towards with the Intercom implementation.

RyanE

Thanks for the response Ryan.

I still remain hopeful product marketing will come to terms with the price discrepancy for existing HC800 owners during the transition period. And now that I think of it, I assume this same issue may have implications for dealers that have hc800 inventory.

[str1der]

So if I understand this correctly even though I have an HC-800 I won't be able to buy a MY Home license if I decide I want to? This doesn't make any sense if true.

[neil12011]

If I understand correctly, the individual licenses by themselves will not be available after the mentioned date. They are still available but only with the purchase of a new controller. So basically, if you have an 800, now is the time to buy the licenses before they "come with" new controllers.

[qVAMPIREp]

Curiously' date=' If you wanted intercom and or site license why havent you purchased already or plan to do so before the period ends?

Are people really planning to rip out Control4 investments over $500 or $1000 of licenses?[/quote']

WHEN home automation has some standardization I'll most definitely be throwing out all of my C4 investment. I do not like how the company is run, but for now it's the best solution for what I want.

Unfortunately, I would have to agree with BlueWater84.

[ILoveC4]

If I understand correctly, the individual licenses by themselves will not be available after the mentioned date. They are still available but only with the purchase of a new controller. So basically, if you have an 800, now is the time to buy the licenses before they "come with" new controllers.

Why? If you buy a new controller in August you're paying for the licenses whether you have them or not.

That's where the existing customers get the screws. If anything, hold off on buying them UNTIL you need a new controller, because at that point you're going to be buying them either way.

[CFUG]

The price for MyHome site license / intercom license has not changed, they will just not be available after June 1 for purchase separate from a controller that has it included in the updated pricing.

RyanE

Slightly confusing from a logistic standpoint but I think I read that I cannot buy discrete licensing for my existing 800 after that date. So, it would makes sense to purchase a site licence NOW if I ever want this capability in the future (not including replacing my main controller). What's not to understand?? I'm not agreeing with this crap at all, I'm just taking what I'm reading and drawing some conclusion...

[dogdvr]

Well your conclusions are correct, buy in the next 65 days, or upgrade a controller. My opinion of this is just as stinky as everyone else's.

It is happening, so we must deal with it.

(or as some people have said, wait for that perfect system to come out and sell your Control4)

[CFUG]

^No, I'm not switching. Take it from me, any system is bound to frustrate. It just so happens that Control4 frustrates me far less than, say, AMX. I own an Intercom license but not a "fruit" license. I guess I'll pass on all this- just not into iAnything...

[RyanE]

Just to be clear, the license included with new controllers after the date is not just for iFruit, but for all portable devices, as well as MyHomePC, as many as you want to run. i.e. MyHome Site License.

As we've hashed over the pros and cons and my opinion, I don't think I need to go into it again.

I'm sorry that it will affect many of you who want to either get a new controller in the future, and/or have already purchased licenses.

RyanE

[CFUG]

Doesn't impact me hardly at all. I am fine with 4Sight and don't use iPad or any other mobile devices. My reference to "crap" merely applies to the reactionary posts that seem to appear every time Control4 zigs when some thought they should have zagged.

[Tokead]

There's a lot of noise being made over this, but I think it's a little out of proportion.

I'm not disagreeing that it would be reasonable for Control 4 to continue offering licenses to existing customers, especially those who purchased 250 or 800 in the last year, but it's not much different than the top end plasma tv you bought last year only to see it on sale or being cleared out several months later when the new, improved, model came out. Or the new car that comes standard with all the features that you paid for as options the year previously. It's progress and someone always gets a better deal than you.

When I got my system, the only option was device licenses, and I bought two for $400. Two months later site licenses were available:-(. Last December, I bought the site license. Now it's bundled. I could have put that money towards a new 800:-(. So I know exactly how people feel.

This is a great opportunity for the company to create some goodwill with its customers. Will it happen? Not likely

Toke

[neil12011]

If I understand correctly' date=' the individual licenses by themselves will not be available after the mentioned date. They are still available but only with the purchase of a new controller. So basically, if you have an 800, now is the time to buy the licenses before they "come with" new controllers.[/quote']

Why? If you buy a new controller in August you're paying for the licenses whether you have them or not.

That's where the existing customers get the screws. If anything, hold off on buying them UNTIL you need a new controller, because at that point you're going to be buying them either way.

I'm not on any particular side of the argument, just stating what the deal basically is, that's all.

[qVAMPIREp]

Control4 always seems to miss the plot just like RIM "Blackberry" so you expect the same eventual fate.

[RyanE]

Control4 always seems to miss the plot just like RIM "Blackberry" so you expect the same eventual fate.

I respectfully disagree. Yes, Control4 has made some missteps, but I personally feel that Control4 is currently getting many things right, that decisions that will affect Control4's future direction are the right ones, and that the management is in place to continue improving.

RyanE

[pentium77]

Anyone want to buy my HC800 along with any other C4 gear? I too took the recommendation to get onboard with the new faster HC800 now I can't get licensing for it after the fact? I don't need the licenses now but might soon. Might as well get out now and look at other options I guess. BAD decision to screw customers over. You should have decided to not offer licenses to older non-supported non-current controllers but your latest and greatest? Bad.

[chesterwilson]

I guess it doesn't bother me that much. I paid $500 for the site license and $1000 on the HC-800. So I basically am getting screwed out of the intercom license. The same license that gives me the privilege of paying for an overpriced door station and overpriced touchscreen, not to mention the delay in bringing up the intercom screen. Perhaps I would feel different if this was offered on my computer's interface (utilizing its webcam).

Actually if C4 was smart (which I have no reason to believe they are given there back and forth on licensing) they would give the intercom license away to try to stimulate some equipment sales.

[Gary Leeds UK]

I`m new to C4 only sorted my system out in Oct last year and still playing with.

I have bought a Site License (Had a single user when I first started) as I have HC250 and that will do until I upgrade me Amp (Sony 5800es) which will give me extra controller.

In my view its a mistake to stop selling the site License, it would do no harm to sell this at £500 or $500 if somebody required it and over time this would just fade out or put time limit on of say Dec 2015

Selling the controllers at a extra cost with a site license does make logic and easier for the end user to understand.

I use ipads and Iphone for everything so I buy into this, I also can not wait for remote access on 2.4.

Just my view

[cashmoney]

Control4 always seems to miss the plot just like RIM "Blackberry" so you expect the same eventual fate.

I respectfully disagree. Yes' date=' Control4 has made some missteps, but I personally feel that Control4 is currently getting many things right, that decisions that will affect Control4's future direction are the right ones, and that the management is in place to continue improving.

RyanE[/quote']

Of course you do, they pay you.