How Many Networks Do You Have in Your House?

[csmpez]

When I first started with the Control4 integration, all I had was my old Verizon router and a small 8 port netgear switch.  However, we realized that a single router handling our everyday Internet usage and the Control4 project was inefficient.  Many days/nights, I was finding myself rebooting our system because it either crashed/locked up.  One of our dealers from the past recommended to have the Control4 project on a separate router which would handle all network traffic for the Control4 project and leave the everyday Internet and streaming stuff to the Verizon FiOS router.  Basically, from what I gather the FiOS router acted more like a modem to the Control4 router. 

 

Just wondering how many networks w/various routers, switches, etc., do you have running your everyday Control4 project, Internet, streaming, Movie servers, etc...  Basically, what really is a bullet proof and properly set up network for residential clients (one router, two routers, switches, midspans, etc...) with Control4?

 

Also, sorry in advance if this is elsewhere on the forum. 

 

Scott

 

 

[RAV]

The right router is all it takes.

The $99 big box stuff, doesn't cut it at this level.

The ISP gateway's can't handle it either.

 

Put the FIOS in a bridge mode, buy good networking gear (everybody has their opinion) and configure it properly.

[ILoveC4]

I agree with RAV. I have a ton of devices at my house, numerous "networks" (VLAN's) to limit what devices can and can't see certain things/devices, VPN, captive portal for guests, etc... All done with PFSense and a couple of UniFi access points.

Having more than one router is trouble. Just get a good one.

[Snaffle8]

Gave up my Cisco RV042 for a Ubiquity edgerouter as my project grew and works flawless now. RAV is right, can't say more about having the right router.

[csmpez]

I agree with you, which is why I posed the question. I completly redid my rack with all new C4 gear, receivers, etc., along with a new Planet switch with POE ports, but didn't do anythind with the routers (duh!) I do have the FIOS router bridged with a Linksys E2500 router, but that thing is like 6 years old. Everybody always says to have a solid network, but you really don't see much discussion on what it takes (new topics have popped up recently on static ip, etc). It's just interesting what people use these days for hardware and how they set up a rock solid network. Thanks!

Scott

[qVAMPIREp]

1) Bridged Cable Modem

2) Asus RT-N66U running Merlin and OpenVPN for "FREE" C4 remote access

3) NetGear ProSafe GS752TP

K.I.S.S. is the best way to go with Networking. I had 3 switches before and a WAP and NEVER got anywhere near the performance I currently have. Never a dropped WiFi or stalled connection.

[Ramorous]

1) Bridged Cable Modem

2) Asus RT-N66U running Merlin and OpenVPN for "FREE" C4 remote access

3) NetGear ProSafe GS752TP

K.I.S.S. is the best way to go with Networking. I had 3 switches before and a WAP and NEVER got anywhere near the performance I currently have. Never a dropped WiFi or stalled connection.

I agree with this. I have similar setup and it just works great. All wired devices go off my switch instead of router. No issues and I have about 30 or so devices with IPs and no issues when relatives use WiFi either.

Sent from my Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk

[LSDave]

I have an Asus RT-N16 running tomatoe firmware with the wireless disabled, I have not had to reboot it due to lock up ever. And it is on a UPS.

Everything wired to a luxul 24 port switch and using the new planet high power WAP.

[Cyknight]

My Watchguard XTM-530 has been running my 3 full networks (not VLANs) and numerous VPN tunnels perfect for many years now - not got the faint of heart in setup, let alone cost though

 

On a serious note, the most important thing is planning (and planning ahead).

While I certainly will not state going cheap is the way to go (quite the opposite!) - keep in mind your budget, your needs and your capabilities (assuming you're setting this part up yourself).

 

-Managed switches are best avoided unless you understand their limitations/proper setup in a C4 environment (in it's most basic you're dumbing it down to a non-managed switch for all intends and purposes to make it work with C4)

-Routers, some Asus higher - end models, Cisco's are good bets form many situations, Luxul, higher up Cisco and others mentioned here and elswhere are a premium that may not be a requirement for your system now or in a few years at least (at which point we'll be 2-3 generations further as far as electronics go)

-Wireless needes to be balanced, but a hefty-price Ruckus setup is often overkill for the 'normal' home.

 

Go what fits best in your budget - just make sure you set aside enough of your budget relative to your system.

 

Avoid consumer routers and switches in general. Use proper APs - not wireless extenders or routers set to function as AP. Also avoid using a Router's own wireless - use dedicated units proeprly placed.

Use a good switch - as most of the communication remains INSIDE your network, this is more important than the router on many levels - avoid Managed units if you don't know how to use them right - they are generally not needed anyway. Avoid cascading/daisy chaning lswitches to get the ports you need.

 

You can boost both your system and house networking if you have a good number of devices both by simply getting two seperate good quality unmanaged switches and dividing the two up, do the same with some seperate wifi to spread the load. This already keeps the two off of each other's backbone without going into VLAN setups and unified wireless setups.

 

There's getting the best of the best vs getting what you need.

[dougw246]

I highly recommend MikroTik routers.  I have a MikroTik 2011UAS running my system and it has been bulletproof.  Their equipment is rock solid and not very expensive.  They will run out of the box.  If you want to do anything from the simple to the complex, the router can do it.  However, if you are not technical, the setup of the various features can be challenging.

[WillEV]

<snip>

 

You can boost both your system and house networking if you have a good number of devices both by simply getting two seperate good quality unmanaged switches and dividing the two up, do the same with some seperate wifi to spread the load. This already keeps the two off of each other's backbone without going into VLAN setups and unified wireless setups.

 

</snip>

 

Also, if you're dividing devices across switches, for the love of all that is good:

- Put devices that are likely to communicate with each other a lot on the same switch

- Connect only one of the switches to the router, and that should be the switch with the most traffic on.  Connect the other switch to the first switch.  Switches in routers are nearly always godawful and you don't want any cross-switch network traffic going across a $2 afterthought switch.  Home routers should have two ethernet ports: LAN and WAN.  

[Cyknight]

Also, if you're dividing devices across switches, for the love of all that is good:

- Put devices that are likely to communicate with each other a lot on the same switch

- Connect only one of the switches to the router, and that should be the switch with the most traffic on.  Connect the other switch to the first switch.  Switches in routers are nearly always godawful and you don't want any cross-switch network traffic going across a $2 afterthought switch.  Home routers should have two ethernet ports: LAN and WAN.  

Indeed

[zaphod]

I have one computer network but I guess technically the C4 is a separate network and then my three Philips Hue bulbs are on a network as well.  My LAN has about 70 IP addresses taken between all of my geeky devices including IP cams, PCs, tablets, phones, SageTV extenders, game consoles, "smart" TVs/AVRs, etc.

 

Like qVAmpirep I have an Asus RT-N66U running Merlin with OpenVPN.  I also have four other routers acting as WAPs throughout my house.  I have a 24 port switch beside my router and several other 5 and 8 port switches scattered around the house. 

[Cyknight]

I also have four other routers acting as WAPs throughout my house.  I have a 24 port switch beside my router and several other 5 and 8 port switches scattered around the house. 

 

Several bad boo-boos in there - router as AP, cascading switches (the worse one that)

[zaphod]

The additional routers are not acting as routers they are acting as WAPs/Switches.  Many routers have an option for this in the UI or you can shut off unneeded/unwanted functionality like DHCP.

 

And what is wrong with cascading switches as long as you don't overload the network?  Isn't the internet essentially a whole bunch of cascading switches, albeit more sophisticated devices than an unmanaged D-Link/Netgear/Linksys or whatever that people have in their homes.  In my instance the devices connected to second level switches are not generally pulling really heavy data loads - I may have an IP camera, a SageTV extender and a Hue or Hunter Douglas bridge.  Everything running full out probably wouldn't even use up 25 Mbps - the bulk of that being MPEG-2 at 19 Mbps for OTA video.

[Cyknight]

The additional routers are not acting as routers they are acting as WAPs/Switches.  Many routers have an option for this in the UI or you can shut off unneeded/unwanted functionality like DHCP.

 

And what is wrong with cascading switches as long as you don't overload the network?  Isn't the internet essentially a whole bunch of cascading switches, albeit more sophisticated devices than an unmanaged D-Link/Netgear/Linksys or whatever that people have in their homes.  In my instance the devices connected to second level switches are not generally pulling really heavy data loads - I may have an IP camera, a SageTV extender and a Hue or Hunter Douglas bridge.  Everything running full out probably wouldn't even use up 25 Mbps - the bulk of that being MPEG-2 at 19 Mbps for OTA video.

 

Yes, and why are you using a router (which should act as a gateway only) as anything but it's intended use. Routers are notoriously poor as switches, and generally not much better as APs in comparison to a equal cost, or less, dedicated unit. The option may be there in the UI, but that doesn't mean it's a proper usage scenario.

 

What is wrong with cascading switches? First that 'second level' switch is likely a cheap unit with little backplane, so if there's talk among them they're limiting bandwith ability back to the main switch. Second, no matter how good the backplane, if you're communicating port to port the lowest port speed is the limiting point, or the wire if it's below specs. You're essentially creating a bottleneck. Third, you're increasing the chance of communication errors. There's more too, but this illustrates the point.

In some scenarios it may not have (visible) consequences, but as guideline it's strongly discouraged. I realize one can be stuck with it as a solution at times, but planning to go this route is planning to create issues down the road.

 

What you're suggesting is a typical scenario where people are trying to save time/money - nothing against that but be aware what you're saving money on - a decent network is often underestimated and under appreciated.

But without it your computers, smart-home systems and streaming devices are useless. I'm dazzled by the fact that people want to save a hundred dollars when potentially tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment is reliant on that one piece to function.

 

Describing the internet as 'essentially a bunch of cascading switches' is off the mark. "the internet" is a network of interconnected NETWORKS, not devices.

I suppose it makes a neat visual, but it's a lot like saying a space-shuttle ,or the mars rover, is essentially just a honda civic except a little more advanced.

[Tokead]

I have one computer network but I guess technically the C4 is a separate network and then my three Philips Hue bulbs are on a network as well. My LAN has about 70 IP addresses taken between all of my geeky devices including IP cams, PCs, tablets, phones, SageTV extenders, game consoles, "smart" TVs/AVRs, etc.

Like qVAmpirep I have an Asus RT-N66U running Merlin with OpenVPN. I also have four other routers acting as WAPs throughout my house. I have a 24 port switch beside my router and several other 5 and 8 port switches scattered around the house.

I have similar. An Asus acting as router and access point. An Engenius WAP. A 24 port luxul. Two 4 port luxul's cascading off it for camera and rooms where I forgot to run enough wires.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[zaphod]

When I moved into my house and put in CAT-6 wiring 8 years ago I understated the number of LAN drops that I would need. Fixing this is not a case of $100 as running several LAN drops to each of several rooms is well into four figures. But why do this when my current network topology works flawlessly?

Maybe I am doing things that aren't recommended but the other option without spending a lot of money is to use more wireless or power line networking. In my personal experience of trying these options that is far less reliable than using cascaded switches or older routers configured to acts as WAPs/switches.

[Cyknight]

As I said in my original reply, I understand that you're stuck in having to make it work, just pointing out hat if you're PLANNING, don't mmake the intentional choice.

[csmpez]

So, as an example... I have a Verizon FiOS router, which is in bridge mode w/a Linksys router that handles my Control4 project (HC800, HC250, 8 Zone Amp/Matrix Switch) and is connected to a FS105 5 port switch where I have the Wireless Music Bridge and three mini touch screens connected to via POE injectors.  However, I just received a new 16 port switch from Planet (FGSW 1828PS) to take the place of the FS105 and give some expandability to my project.  Unfortunately, the Cat5e for the touch screens is too short coming out of the wall, so I'm either going to have to keep using the POE injectors or terminate them with keystone blocks and wall plate for the touch screens to extend the Cat5e to reach the front of the Planet switch.  Plus, I have the other AV hardware that are on multiple floors, like the Yamaha Receivers (2), Roku 3 players (3), Bluray players (2), XBOX ONE, PS4, etc. that will also have Ethernet connections.  I'd like to try and limit the amount of wifi devices if possible.  My questions are:

 

Do I put as much as I can on the Planet switch?

Do I use any of the ports on the Verizon router for various devices or leave these vacant?

Do I keep the HC800, HC250 and 8 Zone Amp/Matrix Switch on the Cisco/Linsys E2500 router?

Do I ditch the Cisco/Linksys router and get a new, more up to date Asus RT-N66U or the Acus RT-N68U for my project router?  Will this be a benefit?

Do I put a switch upstairs (2nd floor) and plug all devices into that and just have one Cat6 cable tied into the router or switch downstairs at the main rack?  I think this was advised against (daisy chaining switches).

 

Thanks!

 

Scott

[Cyknight]

Do I put as much as I can on the Planet switch? Yes - using the poe injectors or extend the wires makes little difference here from network perspective 

Do I use any of the ports on the Verizon router for various devices or leave these vacant? Absolutely do not plug anything in here

Do I keep the HC800, HC250 and 8 Zone Amp/Matrix Switch on the Cisco/Linsys E2500 router? No, let the router be just a router, as Will mentioned the perfect router/gateway/firewall appliance has two ports, one for a separate modem going in, on to go to a network switch, I'll add that it shouldn't even have wireless. If you MUST use the ports, put unimportant stuff on it like a network for occasional internet use only.

Do I ditch the Cisco/Linksys router and get a new, more up to date Asus RT-N66U or the Acus RT-N68U for my project router?  Will this be a benefit? I avoid Linksys - they are the typical consumer grade/budget sub-brand for cisco that they aim to be. But if it works and you see no slow internet/system/general glitches, hey I'm not going to tell you to change it

Do I put a switch upstairs (2nd floor) and plug all devices into that and just have one Cat6 cable tied into the router or switch downstairs at the main rack?  I think this was advised against (daisy chaining switches) It is, better to have direct lines to a central switch. Like I said though, it may not be a problem, and sometimes running wires just isn't possible or reasonable. Also depends on what you're doing with it. Example that extra switch is only connecting to a Blu-Ray player for updates/bdlive maybe netflix and a few game systems that are all local for the same reason - you'll never hav more than one running at a time anyway and it really wont matter. Yet if there are controllers, WiFi APs and more on there it's a different matter.

[SMHarman]

Verizon to Linksys to Planet

Everything plugged into planet.

You can buy those two female end Ethernet lead connectors for your short leads.

Switch upstairs would only be advised if you did not have the ability to run everything downstairs. A full conduit Or something.

[csmpez]

Okay, this is good to know.  I'm learning.   So, I'll pull everything off the Verizon and Linksys routers and 5-port switch, place the Verizon Router into bridge mode (which will basically just make it a modem), patch that from Port #1 to the Linksys router's LAN port, port #1 of the Linksys router will go to the Planet 16 port switch and plug everything else into the Planet switch.  Shewwwww, wish I knew this before I did my wire management...LOL!

 

Quick question, all my wireless stuff in the house (tablets, phones, etc...) are configured back to the Verizon router.  Since I'll be putting that into bridge mode, won't I loose that wireless connectivity since it will no longer be functioning as a router?  I take it I would need to connect everything (tablets, phones, etc.) over to the Linksys router?     

 

Scott

[RAV]

Better to have separate access point's that rely on the Linksys router for you're wifi, but yes you'll reconfigure your devices.

 

As to cascading switches or home runs, remember there's only so much bandwith for traffic through that Cat cable. So if you're doing a home theater with a processor, you might have 3 Cat5s to the main switch - 1. C4 Processor, 2. Main Streaming Device, 3. Other for a Switch, where that switch only has devices that need the connection for updates or where only 1 device on that switch will typically be talking at a time.

[csmpez]

Better to have separate access point's that rely on the Linksys router for you're wifi, but yes you'll reconfigure your devices.

As to cascading switches or home runs, remember there's only so much bandwith for traffic through that Cat cable. So if you're doing a home theater with a processor, you might have 3 Cat5s to the main switch - 1. C4 Processor, 2. Main Streaming Device, 3. Other for a Switch, where that switch only has devices that need the connection for updates or where only 1 device on that switch will typically be talking at a time.

When you say access points (AP) you're referring to Ubiquiti Network hardware (as an example)? I have a pretty good amount of Cat6 now all over the house to install some Ubiquiti LR AP models. So better to have this type of set up than rely on the Linksys for wifi... hmmm, okay. Works for me.