Jump to content
C4 Forums | Control4

Will Control4 follow what Crestron did with Pyng?


therockhr

Recommended Posts

No one correlates stock prices with actual product/company performance. Stock analysts know about as much about home automation as my grandmother does so stop posting stock price FUD. It isn't productive or relevant to any conversation here.

 

Pyng is not much more than a gateway drug into having a real Crestron system. To top it off *every single* Crestron dealer I talked to at CEDIA said they would not be selling Pyng or were very hesitant to buy in given Crestron's previous downmarket product offerings. I think Crestron has a tougher sell on their hands than you might think. 

 

That said I agree 100% that C4 should have a 'hub' that only does automation (no AV). AV is too difficult and too problematic when it comes to troubleshooting and tech support. Leave that to dealers until it gets easier -- heck even DIY Revolv figured that out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Replies 73
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Pyng is not much more than a gateway drug into having a real Crestron system. To top it off *every single* Crestron dealer I talked to at CEDIA said they would not be selling Pyng or were very hesitant to buy in given Crestron's previous downmarket product offerings. I think Crestron has a tougher sell on their hands than you might think. 

 

 

I think everything you said here, hits the nail on the head. This is all so true.

The problem is, the dealers that will be selling PYNG and pushing other entry level home automation options won't be the smaller CI dealers/installers.

It is going to be big box pushing it. BB will have sheltered sku's from independents. Nearly every market in CEI have gone through route at some point. Home Automation will be the next. Independents build brands and BB reaps the rewards.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Once apple get more involved AV will be a DIY solution but will require new equipment. In 5 years all AV will be automated out if he box IMO.

People have only been saying that exact thing for a few decades. I suspect in 5 years you'll be able to say the same thing.

 

Also Apple's approach is very hands off relatively speaking. They are providing the ability for others to make the interface but not the brains. I think they are hanging back to see what happens. Then, like everything else they do, they will jump in if there is a problem or market to make money on. Let others do the dirty work.

 

I think everything you said here, hits the nail on the head. This is all so true.

The problem is, the dealers that will be selling PYNG and pushing other entry level home automation options won't be the smaller CI dealers/installers.

It is going to be big box pushing it. BB will have sheltered sku's from independents. Nearly every market in CEI have gone through route at some point. Home Automation will be the next. Independents build brands and BB reaps the rewards.  

Feels like the right product by the wrong company. If C4 had come out with this it would be a home run in so many ways. Crestron dealers don't have the business model to support Pyng. I'm curious to see how this all goes down.

 

I would be willing to wager Crestron will not be appearing in big box stores in any way. Maybe Magnolia.. but thats more like a CI dealership with retail.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Feels like the right product by the wrong company. If C4 had come out with this it would be a home run in so many ways. Crestron dealers don't have the business model to support Pyng. I'm curious to see how this all goes down.

 

I would be willing to wager Crestron will not be appearing in big box stores in any way. Maybe Magnolia.. but thats more like a CI dealership with retail.  

 

I'm curious about what the future holds for Crestron Pyng as well. Like you mentioned, Crestron would have been the last company I would have thought would have made that product. Also as you mentioned, Control4 seemed to be in the best position to deliver a solution like that. I do think it seems C4 is headed in that direction with Composer Express but it doesn't look near as polished as Pyng right now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What does Pyng offer that Control4 does not? Just curious here.

 

Nothing more in terms of features, it is just packaged up better. You configure everything in the same app that you use to control the system. No need to buy and install an application, like Composer HE or Pro, on your windows computer.

 

They are also heavily marketing it as "user configurable" which is not normal for Crestron.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

According to the interview with Julie Jacobsen's interview with Crestron, you can only configure a small subset of a Crestron system with Pyng.

 

i.e. InfiNet (ZigBee) devices and door locks.  With Control4, you can adjust / add lighting scenes from any app or touchscreen.  The difference is you can then use ComposerHE to do most *anything* with most *any* device in the Control4 system.

 

If you add Pyng to a full Crestron system, you add a Pyng object to the Crestron project, and that allows you to do Pyng on touchscreens.  You still can't use that Pyng UI to adjust / program A/V devices, just the same ones you can with the iPad app.  You still must be a Crestron dealer to do anything with A/V, etc.

 

RyanE

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

http://www.ravepubs.com/rave-video/ise-2016-crestron-electronics-feature-pyng-home-automation-system/

Old thread but interesting to see where Pyng has progressed. It looks to be that Crestron wants any home control system to be based on Pyng no matter what the size. Seems they want to leave the traditional custom programmed Crestron systems to the commercial space (which totally makes sense). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, therockhr said:

http://www.ravepubs.com/rave-video/ise-2016-crestron-electronics-feature-pyng-home-automation-system/

Old thread but interesting to see where Pyng has progressed. It looks to be that Crestron wants any home control system to be based on Pyng no matter what the size. Seems they want to leave the traditional custom programmed Crestron systems to the commercial space (which totally makes sense). 

And yet they pulled out of CEDIA2016 show, THE place to be for residential custom install. They'd probably have pulled out of ISE too if they could have without incurring costs.

 

Pyng is a failure, Crestron dealers didn't want it, other dealers aren't interested because it's still a pain compared to the others. This is just a push to try and salvage it.

 

Of course, these are merely my personal opinions :rolleyes::ph34r:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

And yet they pulled out of CEDIA2016 show, THE place to be for residential custom install. They'd probably have pulled out of ISE too if they could have without incurring costs.

 

Pyng is a failure, Crestron dealers didn't want it, other dealers aren't interested because it's still a pain compared to the others. This is just a push to try and salvage it.

 

Of course, these are merely my personal opinions :rolleyes::ph34r:

So Crestron dealers want to keep doing custom programming for residential homes? There is just no reason in the world to keep doing that when 99% of the use cases for a residential install have been figured out. Pyng seemed to be following in the footsteps of what made Control4 successful but with the added bonus of having the user configurable stuff build into the same app used for controlling the system. I have heard Crestron's residential installs is only 20% of their business, which is not insignificant. Do you think they scrap the product and somewhat abandon the residential market?

From reading this board and watching the moves the existing home automation companies (Crestron, C4, etc) have been making it is obvious that the proliferation of the automated home to the middle class won't be coming from them. I would have thought with C4 going public and the investors wanting the product in the hands of more people that they would have started to find a way to bring some products to retail.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, therockhr said:

From reading this board and watching the moves the existing home automation companies (Crestron, C4, etc) have been making it is obvious that the proliferation of the automated home to the middle class won't be coming from them. 

 

Makes you wonder why C4 wanted to go public.  Without finding a way to make C4 accessible to the middle class, there doesn't seem to be a way to achieve significant growth.   The dealer centric model is outdated and very hit or miss for the customer.

The company that pivots to a dealer-assist model will win the space and profits.  Locking the customer out of their own systems (the HE vs. Pro issue) provides no long term benefit to the companies.  No one who starts with DIY is going to want to upgrade to a system that takes control of what they can do away from them.  (Whether they would/could it themselves is a different story).

 

When I think of high end automation, I think of Crestron.  But the entry point was more than I was comfortable with, so I went with Control4.  But sadly, C4 doesn't seem to know where they don't want to go or understand they need to support customers not rich enough to just say to a dealer "make it do what I want".  There are plenty of customers that would have a dealer supply the equipment and install if they could do other work themselves (what I call "dealer-assist").   But Control4 apparently doesn't want that market or have any idea how to target it.

 

Either Creston or Control4 is going to figure out how to serve all market segments with clearly defined upgrade paths.  Whoever does will eventually leave the other behind as an also ran.   You would think Cestron had the right idea with Pyng, but they seem to have stumbled.  C4 can't figure out what they want to be when they grow up.  Whoever gets their act together first will control the non-DIY HA market.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, therockhr said:

So Crestron dealers want to keep doing custom programming for residential homes? There is just no reason in the world to keep doing that when 99% of the use cases for a residential install have been figured out. Pyng seemed to be following in the footsteps of what made Control4 successful but with the added bonus of having the user configurable stuff build into the same app used for controlling the system. I have heard Crestron's residential installs is only 20% of their business, which is not insignificant. Do you think they scrap the product and somewhat abandon the residential market?

Yes, they do - because they want to charge for it.

What 'user configurable stuff'? What you can do as a user is incredibly over-stated.

Will they scrap it? They'll have to choose - either go into it in full, or let it die off. Which they'll do is up to them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People hate being told they can't do something, especially when they think they actually can.  That creates a big psychological barrier with the more technical C4 users who can't get Pro.   However, in my opinion, the number of people that would actually use Pro to become self supporting is relatively small, and I don't think the change would be as seismic as people think.  My dealer told me that I was the first customer that had ever requested HE, which tells me that their customer base is not that interested in DIY.  In a lot of areas, I would guess that is not unusual.  

By opening up Pro, I think C4 would gain more sales from existing customers like me who feel that they are perfectly capable of setting up their own systems with the right training.  They also would open themselves up to the hardcore DIY market currently playing around with lesser products.  That group won't consider C4 due to the dealer model.  Without question, the business model for some dealers would change, and that make this difficult.  However, in the long run more customers with C4 gear is good for Control4 and the dealer network as a whole.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yup, branding is key.  Apple and Google are the marketing gorillas.  If Apple is "close enough" to Control4, Apple is going to win almost every time.   But Apple isn't any where near as open as Control4 is.   If Control4 can take the take the last step and make their system as accessible and usable as people think Apple is, they have a shot at becoming the brand most except the very high end will associate with HA in spite of Apple's marketing muscle.  No one under 40 comfortable with tech wants anything to do with a restrictive firewalled approach to software control that made sense in the 70s and 80s but now nothing more than a method to control the customer base rather than expand it.   I have been involved in grass roots marketing.  The potential benefits to the business are enormous.  

 

No matter how good a dealer is, there's a limit to how much one can know about a field as expansive as HA (with the obvious Cynight exception).   There's going to be someone out there that is more interested in a particular brand or solution or approach.  Imagine how much we could all learn if this forum had the reach of Avsforum or much of the info restricted to dealers wasn't.   Support those people.  Find a way to have them complement what the dealer network does.  Help them build your brand.  98% of potential Control4 customers would still voluntarily tether to their dealer.  But the 2% could be evangelists that would generate interest and longevity that C4 can only dream of now.  

 

I am the go to tech guy for my family, extended family and many friends.  I've been asked to recommend HA solutions.  I no longer recommend C4 as an option.  My Dad would probably put me in a system with all the bells and whistles if he knew I could manage it for him.   He'd probably spend over $100k just on the initial install and he would want a dealer to provide the equipment and installation.  But tell him he can't make changes (even though he never would) and that I couldn't help - no deal.  My daughter is the same way (although she put it more bluntly - I was stupid to to buy into a closed system approach).    She is looking to buy a new house and would like HA, but won't even consider C4.  Even my wife has gotten into the game.  I want an EA5, some T3 screens and a door station.  I want to look at swapping out video gear to support 4K.  But I've been told I can't buy any of it if I  am forced to have others do the software changes she knows I'm perfectly capable of doing.  (Part of that is related to my dealers backload and that any request seems to take weeks when she wants it done in hours or days).

 

C4 absolutely needs to open up, even if it is just used as a marketing item.  People don't mind proprietary as long as they think it's open.  Make it seem open and you eliminate the the proprietary tag.  C4 probably doesn't want to go there because of the initial costs of changing the support structure to handle non-dealer support and/or pushback from existing dealers that think being open will hurt, rather than help, their businesses.   Control4 needs to become the name associated with HA, not Apple or Google or "Internet of Things".   But they aren't going to be able to do it without some of their passionate user base (like many here) spreading the word to friends and family and interested parties on the Internet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Google and Apple are already in the smarthome market with their TV and audio devices. Apple even more so with HomeKit. Although they have nowhere near the features and ability as C4 or Crestron. You could argue that C4 is far superior than Apple with home automation, but in the average consumers eyes, they will want Apple if it has similar features due to brand recognition and a familiar UX.

I believe C4 will need to open Composer to consumers giving them the ability to totally control their home and purchase and add devices if they want to continue to compete in the market in the future. The ZigBee device market could become huge with this move. C4 has a fantastic UI and even Composer is built with a simple interface and programming isn't even really programming, its so straight forward. But the biggest advantage of opening Composer up is it will continue to build a loyal following among owners as they will be more involved with their projects and communicate on forums like this for advice. That is what C4 really needs to compete is brand ambassadors like the 'Apple fanboys'. I think the dealer network is the wrong approach for C4.

But Apple is not totally user configurable. If you want that choose android.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, jreinardy said:

People hate being told they can't do something, especially when they think they actually can.  That creates a big psychological barrier with the more technical C4 users who can't get Pro.   However, in my opinion, the number of people that would actually use Pro to become self supporting is relatively small, and I don't think the change would be as seismic as people think.  My dealer told me that I was the first customer that had ever requested HE, which tells me that their customer base is not that interested in DIY.  In a lot of areas, I would guess that is not unusual.  

By opening up Pro, I think C4 would gain more sales from existing customers like me who feel that they are perfectly capable of setting up their own systems with the right training.  They also would open themselves up to the hardcore DIY market currently playing around with lesser products.  That group won't consider C4 due to the dealer model.  Without question, the business model for some dealers would change, and that make this difficult.  However, in the long run more customers with C4 gear is good for Control4 and the dealer network as a whole.

Looks like we were writing about the same time.  You are exactly right.  The lead tech on my project said that very few of their customers have HE and he thought maybe one other customer was doing the kinds of things I was (he made it sound like anything other than basic lighting and AV control was unusual, but that's a different issue).   It's not that people WOULD use HE or Pro, it's that they COULD that would be the difference, just another marketing bullet. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I would love for Control4 to open up Composer Pro to existing owners of a system (kind of like Lutron) it is not going to help them move that many more units. If they opened up the software then I think it would put a major dent in some of the existing solutions that can be done DIY like Homeseer, HAI, CQC, Insteon, Verde, etc.

The investors want to get the product in the hands of about 4 times as many as they have now. The only way to do that is to allow for some sort of retail, direct to consumer option. The existing platform is not ready for retail. An automation only retail hub (no AV or just whole home audio) that could be configured and installed through the C4 app along with card access sensors, motion, c4 wireless thermostat and a subset of C4 wireless lighting would fill this void.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, if C4 can only grow by a factor of 4, they are toast as a public company.  10x, 20x should be the initial target, not 4x.

 

By one estimate I heard there are maybe only two dozen C4 driver developers.  License Pro and open up driver development/support and that problem fixes itself.  License Pro and you get a small army of free marketing drones regardless of the incremental sales growth (and I think you seriously underestimate the hardware drag).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

Funny how a question on whether or not C4 is going to 'follow' CRESTRON (and the arguable lack of Crestron doing ANYTHING in reality) becomes a mud-toss on ComposerPro licensing and C4 corporate policy?

How would C4 follow Crestron if there was nothing to follow? :)

 

Isn't the bottom line "What needs to be done to grow (or become the dominant player in) the HA market?"  

Unless they are satisfied with being a niche market, they can't just rely on the stereotypical high-end market.  The money and volumes in the middle class will drive growth, not the existing target customer set.  To really grow you have to develop new markets.  Sitting back and waiting for the market to come to you may be a sustainable model, but it is not a model for growth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

How would C4 follow Crestron if there was nothing to follow? :)

Yeshhhhh....that would be MY point.

Quote

Isn't the bottom line "What needs to be done to grow (or become the dominant player in) the HA market?"  

No, the bottom line is whether or not C4 will/should(/really has anything to) follow Crestron with. Or perhaps the argument that PYNG is somehow in the same line of device as the Iris et al..

 

You're free to argue for C4 'DIY' all day long (including on these forums) - doesn't bother me as at all, but the constant apparent need to change half the threads on here INTO that discussion is getting old.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honestly, if you have composer home edition and have any dealer drop in some drivers, then for the most part c4 is diy! If "diy complainers" on this forum, spent as much time on their own projects within composer home edition and perfecting their own infrustructure, I think they would be much happier, and realize that for the most part we are already there. I used Vera the other day to integrate an z-wave rgb strip controller, and the programming is no where near as straight forward as composer. Just saying.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.