LED Dimming - Control4 Dimmer & Keypad Requirements

[Hammer]

I just replaced 4 BR30 can lights with 4 x Ecosmart 65w dimmable (11w consumption) lights.  After replacing just 1, dimming was ok.  After replace all, dimming no longer work.  I basically get on or off,  no dimming.

 

Is there a minimum wattage requirement for the dimming with my Control4 light switches?  In checking Composer HE (v2.5.2) – the (3 way) light switches are :

 

• LDZ-101

• LSZ-3W1

 

If I do have to replace them would these be the correct replacements:

 

• C4-APD120 (Wireless Adaptive Phase Dimer)

 

• C4-KA (Auxiliary Keypad)

• Or optionally C4-KC120277 (Decora Wireless Configurable Keypad)

 

Thanks,

 

George

 

[Hammer]

Also, I ust remembered that i have the same LDZ-101 switch controlling one sink light in the kitchen with a Cree 65W LED and it dims, although somewhat poorly.  

[WaarrEagle]

It sounds like you already realize that the legacy switches you have are not technically rated for LED dimming.  Regardless, I followed the advice of many on this board and recently installed a variety of Philips LED's around my home on LDZ-102 dimmers.  Although they do not dim as nicely as incandescents at low levels, I am very pleased with the performance.  I'd suggest trying some different bulbs.  I bought these:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00I134ORI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008NNZSI0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Cyknight]

There is indeed a minimal wattage requirement - but if that is the issue you typically see that the lights don't turn off completely or flicker when the dimmer if off.

No dimming means you probably need to either replace the dimmer (adaptive phase, the first one you mentioned is what you'd need, no need to replace other devices, they can mix and match) or get different bulbs.

[drmark12pa]

Same issue on 6 cans in my theater viewing area... I pulled the old Control4 dimmer model DIM1-Z-x and replaced with new multi button pad which works perfectly with the adaptive phase dimming.... upgrade!

[calbear]

Just an FYI -- I just installed 3 GE Reveal BR30 LED lights on a DIM1-Z dimmer circuit without any issues.  Not hearing any buzzing and dimming is working reasonably well.  They dim pretty well though not low enough for locations like the home theater, but for the kitchen or kids playroom I can see these being very useful.  They're brighter than the halogens and the CRI improvement is noticeable too.  They also run completely cool to the touch which is impressive.

[zaphod]

Given this issue are you better off getting higher wattage LEDs to provide more of a load? I am replacing a bunch of MR16s. I think I have 35W halogens today. Am I better off getting 6W LEDs or 3W LEDs or does it matter. There are several pot lights tied to each dimmer.

[Cyknight]

Minimum load on the 'legacy' dimmers is 25W, 7W for the old ELV. I'd assume 30 or even 35 an 10W for error margin in 'real' bulb wattage. Assuming you have proper neutrals everywhare - or you're messing that up completely.

Calculate yourself.

 

On the other hand, I'd stick below 200W on LED bulbs - 120 for ELV. I don't think specific specs were ever released per bulb type for the older units - but LED rush current is FAR higher and the old ratings on the ;legacy; stuff was based purely on incandescent and halogen, to Fluorescent to a smaller degree - LED had not yet entered the market, especially dimmable when those were rated.

[calbear]

As I noted above, I have 3 of the GE BR30s on a C4 Dim1-Z Dimmer with no problems.  Each bulb is 12W max, which would mean 36W on the circuit.  But since I'm getting very good relative dimming, it must be working well below a 25W min load threshhold.  Otherwise, that would imply only ~30% dimming.  And I think my minimum dim is about 10% of full, which would suggest only 3.6W load... and no issues at all.  Is there any risk of damaging the dimmer??

[Cyknight]

You're misunderstanding the minimum wattage requirement - it is based on the minimum bulb rating required, not the minimum load it can output.

 

And no being too low in wattage isn't going to damage the dimmer - it can make the lights flicker at low levels (or off) or leave them on at a steady glod when 'off'. The first may damage the bulb over time, the latter would use up more of the bulb lifespan.

[calbear]

Thanks for the clarification.  So what you're saying is that with 36W of bulbs on the circuit, I'm above the 25W minimum, regardless of how much dimming I might be doing.  By that logic, is it correct to say that having only two bulbs (24W) might work but would be cutting it close, and having only one bulb on a standard (25W min, non-ELV) dimmer would be to low?

[Cyknight]

Yes - if the two bulb will work depends a bit on the bulb itself - ie, if they are 12.6W they may be fine, if they are 11.4 they may not.

 

In such scenario's it's likely better to get a higher wattage bulb and just use the lights at a lower level.

 

Or get the newr adaptive phase dimmers - of the top of my heat their minimium is 1W if it has a true neutral, even the current forward phase dimmer is around 5W or so I think.

[zaphod]

Can you mix LED and halogen? I bought four Jacky MR16 dimmable LEDs on Amazon to try out. I have older C4 dimmers - these are about 7-8 years old.

These are 6W bulbs which are equivalent to 55W. The existing halogens are 20W or some may be 35 W. So far I have put in two LEDs that are mixed with four halogen bulbs. When I turn on the lights the halogens start very low and ramp up. But the LEDs come on pretty quickly and seem to be pretty much full brightness when the halogens are very dim. Is it likely that this is the nature of these bulbs? Or is this because of the mixture of halogen and LEDs. Or is it because these bulbs are a much higher wattage?

[Cyknight]

Heh. No, yes, yes, yes

 

No - you shouldn't mix any load types on a circuit - indeed you shouldn't even mix different wattage bulbs of the same type. Might me that nothing happens  but at the least your ruining lifespan.

 

Yes - LEDs tend to have a higher starting point than incendescent and halogen - that is, to some degree, the nature of it.

 

Yes - mixing different bulb types is liable to mess with all bulbs' dimmability.

 

Yes - the big difference you see may well be (partially) due to the huge difference in wattage across them.

[zaphod]

Ok so I have now replaced 4 of the 6 bulbs in my office with 6W MR16 bulbs. For now the other two bulbs are disconnected They do dim somewhat, but they seem to want to ramp up to full power first - but they will then ramp down to dim. In other words they don't seem to ramp up if you hold down the on button of a dimmer. But if you tap the button to put them on 100% and then press and hold the button to ramp down then they dim, at least partially. Is that typical?

Any issue with using LEDs outside? The temperature here ranges from (Celsius) -20 to +30.

Edit: when dimming the LEDs I geta 60Hz hum. Any way to alleviate that?

[Cyknight]

Not sure I'd call it typical - but i've seen it happen with: non-dimmable bulbs, dimming in the wrong phase, just poor quality bulbs

 

LEDs outside depends on the LED/LED bulb more than it does with incandescents.

But it can certainly be done just fine. I can beat that low temperature by a further 10 degrees with the same top temperature (unless you're talking extreme exceptions, where I can widen that range quite a bit). Yes that's Celsius.

I have several lights outside, plus I have plenty of LED RGB lights on exteriors at clients - they've all been fine since install without a failure. Just don't cheap out and check their ratings - some will say not for outdoor use/indoor only. Keep those indoors

 

If you're getting a hum, most likely you have the wrong phase (foreward phase/reverse phase) dimmers for the bulbs.

This can sometimes be alleviated by changing the max range to something like 98%.