Dirty Power Not Allowing Video Picture To Come On

[FLA]

My equipment is basically:

1 Control4 HC800 System Controller 

1 Control4 16x16 audio matrix

1 Control4 4 zone amp

1 Control4 8 zone amp

1 Control4 8 Music bridge

1 Control4 IO Extender

1 SnapAV B100 8x8 video matrix 

2 Apple TV’s

2 Sonos connect bridges

2 BluRay players

1 Marantz AV7005 surround sound pre/processor.

1 Sunfire Theater Grand Amp

12 Audio Zones (4 outdoor, 8 indoor including 1 home theater). indoor = 8” episode 700 ceiling speakers. Home Theater = 5 Episode HT 700 LCR in wall speakers. Outdoor Zones = Episode outdoor speakers

8 Video Zones all Samsung TV's

7 RC250

1 7" Touch Screen

 

There are times that most of my TV's will not fully turn on. They have audio in the ceiling speakers but no video picture and the IR emitters do not blink. I have found that if I turn off either all or most items in the house that are on when the TV pictures fail to turn on such as pool motors lights and room fans pugged into room outlets the TV's will then turn on. 

 

My dealer says it's being caused by "dirty power". He says that it has nothing to do with his installation or wiring and probably nothing to do with the electricians wiring from my remodel. He says it's probably dirty power from the electric company. 

 

I have lived in this house for over 30 years and never had any electrical problems with TV's, computers or anything for that matter in the past. None of my neighbors have had any problems like the ones that I am experiencing or for that matter none have ever mentioned anything about"dirty power". I have never read or heard anything about dirty power.

 

If dirty power can in fact stop my TV's from turning on wouldn't it be more likely something that has happened recently like something to do with the new wiring in the house?

 

Is it even likely that "dirty power" can stop my TV's from turning on. If dirty power can stop the TV's from turning on then when the problem happens why do the tv's work after turning everything everything that is being powered off? I would think that the power is still dirty. I'm baffled.

[Cyknight]

Mhh.

Interference?

While 'dirty power' (I hate that term by the way) can be a partial source of interference - it's rarely the sole or main cause of consistent issues.

Some of the issues you've previously reported on certainly indicate potential interference issues in the wiring - somewhere at least.

 

Electrical rewire: Were C4 lighting devices installed? Did they tie neutral to ground? (Bad, bad electrician/dealer!) - even if not C4, were there new dimmers installed? Were TV locations wired to any light circuits, especially those with dimmers/fans on it?

 

System side: What cable is used - is is CAT5(e) or CAT6(a)? Is it shielded cable, and if it is were shielded ends used?

 

One thing that COULD help and is something relatively easily to do (and can be done yourself) is to add ferrite cores (also called ferrite beads - indeed, technically the proper name) to all the cables. You could try it on the central equipment, but I'd start a test with all the cables in one area local (do the IR too, and maybe add the power cable of the controller sending the IR). Shop around and you should be able to find them for under two buck a pop (I've seen them for under $10 for 10 of them at times). Hardly a guarantee, they can help eliminate/mitigate AC interference, high frequency noise and oscillation.

[alanchow]

If you use the original remotes for the TV's do they turn on/off?  Can you switch to the right input manually?  Need to isolate the issue first to see if it is Control4, the TV, the switcher or whatever.

 

'dirty power' isn't really a technical term so you might want to clarify what they mean by that.

[Cyknight]

PS 'dirty power' is a capture-all for a number of potential issues, ranging from voltage drops to RF interference and back via phase differential to ground loops/trace.

 

Which is part of why I dislike the term - together with the fact that 90% of the people that use the term to 'explain' issues have not a single clue what it means.

[Cyknight]

PPS the fact that it seems to work when everything else is off may actually be an indication of parasitic oscillation - so as such is not that crazy at all.

[lippavisual]

You've kind of answered your own question.  Especially from your previous posts concerning all the issues you've had.

 

To me, sounds like a bad electrical system design or the contractor just cut corners.

 

Around my parts, this is how the electrical is typically laid out. (Provided we get in on time before the build or the builder uses a competent contractor)

 

1. All lights/ceiling fans to each individual room on 1 dedicated 15A circuit.

2. All convenience receptacle outlets to each individual room on 1 dedicated 15A circuit (does not include AV outlets).

3. All receptacle outlets for AV purposes will be dedicated 15A circuits and will originate from the same phase of power.

4. All receptacle outlets in the AV closet will be dedicated 20A circuits and will originate from the same phase of power. 

 

Hope this helps.

[FLA]

Mhh.

Interference?

While 'dirty power' (I hate that term by the way) can be a partial source of interference - it's rarely the sole or main cause of consistent issues.

Some of the issues you've previously reported on certainly indicate potential interference issues in the wiring - somewhere at least.

 

Electrical rewire: Were C4 lighting devices installed? Did they tie neutral to ground? (Bad, bad electrician/dealer!) - even if not C4, were there new dimmers installed? Were TV locations wired to any light circuits, especially those with dimmers/fans on it?

 

System side: What cable is used - is is CAT5(e) or CAT6(a)? Is it shielded cable, and if it is were shielded ends used?

 

One thing that COULD help and is something relatively easily to do (and can be done yourself) is to add ferrite cores (also called ferrite beads - indeed, technically the proper name) to all the cables. You could try it on the central equipment, but I'd start a test with all the cables in one area local (do the IR too, and maybe add the power cable of the controller sending the IR). Shop around and you should be able to find them for under two buck a pop (I've seen them for under $10 for 10 of them at times). Hardly a guarantee, they can help eliminate/mitigate AC interference, high frequency noise and oscillation.

 

 

PS 'dirty power' is a capture-all for a number of potential issues, ranging from voltage drops to RF interference and back via phase differential to ground loops/trace.

 

Which is part of why I dislike the term - together with the fact that 90% of the people that use the term to 'explain' issues have not a single clue what it means.

 

 

PPS the fact that it seems to work when everything else is off may actually be an indication of parasitic oscillation - so as such is not that crazy at all.

Hi Cyknight, Thanks again for your replies. Electrical wiring. My C4 dealer was on board while the walls were ripped out and when the electrician started the work. As a matter of fact my C4 dealer is a partner in the electrical company. We have had Lutron Maestro dimmers installed for every led light that is dimmable except for the outside led's that are dimmable which are on C4 dimmers. All of the outside LEDs that are not dimmable are on C4 on/off switches. There are only a couple of fixtures in the house that are not LED's. All of the outside lights are LED. I have no clue if they ran neutral to ground. Some if not all of the TV's definitely are on the same circuits as light dimmers. There are no permanent fans. When my system has the last episode of the TV pictures not working in all of the TV's except for one there was a fan plugged into a receptacle in one of the bedrooms. I know he ran one CAT6 and at least one CAT5 to each TV. He says they are not shielded. 

 

There is no way I can run the ferrite beads but I will pay my dealer or someone else to do them for me. I don't know if they can work with the type of connectors I have. do the go on the CAT wire or the wires that have the planet connectors?

 

The funny thing is that it seems to be so intermittent and if the problem arrises after the TV picture starts working I can turn anything on and they continue to work fine. 

[FLA]

If you use the original remotes for the TV's do they turn on/off?  Can you switch to the right input manually?  Need to isolate the issue first to see if it is Control4, the TV, the switcher or whatever.

 

'dirty power' isn't really a technical term so you might want to clarify what they mean by that.

Hi Alanchow, When the problem happened several days ago I started running around like a chicken without a head. My wife was hoping to watch a little TV. I didn't think of trying the Samsung remotes but I have a feeling that wouldn't of mattered since the IR was not blinking but I will definitely try that first next time. I will try to pin my installer down on what he meant by dirty power. He had the electrician call me today and he asked think they are both baffled and they both realize that they should have run separate circuits and shielded wire.

[FLA]

You've kind of answered your own question.  Especially from your previous posts concerning all the issues you've had.

 

To me, sounds like a bad electrical system design or the contractor just cut corners.

 

Around my parts, this is how the electrical is typically laid out. (Provided we get in on time before the build or the builder uses a competent contractor

 

1. All lights/ceiling fans to each individual room on 1 dedicated 15A circuit.

2. All convenience receptacle outlets to each individual room on 1 dedicated 15A circuit (does not include AV outlets).

3. All receptacle outlets for AV purposes will be dedicated 15A circuits and will originate from the same phase of power.

4. All receptacle outlets in the AV closet will be dedicated 20A circuits and will originate from the same phase of power. 

 

Hope this helps.

Yes I believe you are right on all counts. Like I told Alanchow both the electrician and dealer realize that they should have run separate circuits and shielded wire.

It is too late for that now. The remodel consisted of Board and Baton, VGroove, moldings, wood work and several coats of paint on all interior walls. It is not economically feasible to rip into walls. At this point I unfortunately have to settle for the best band aids possible. It's a shame because this is the last house my wife and I will be in and it was our dream project. 

[FLA]

Tonight I turned on the TV in the master and no picture. As it turns out my problem several days ago was reversed. There was no picture on any TV in the house except for the master that worked. Now the master is not working and every other TV is working. I turned off every light in the house and every fan or electrical devise plugged into receptacles except for the refrigerator and  built in kitchen appliances. This did not help. I then turned everything back on and the picture did not work. My dealer says the IR on this TV does not blink and that the TV light behind it blinks. In any event the C4 remote was not making the light blink along with not turning the TV on. Per Alanchow's suggestion I found my Samsung remote and YES it turned on the TV and made the light blink. After the TV was on the C4 remote switched channels and the volume worked and it would turn the TV off, it just would not turn it on. The Samsung continued to turn the TV on. Any ideas? My dealer says the Balun was locked up due to bad power. If that was the case why would the Samsung remote work???

[alanchow]

Hard to say what the problem is without full information about your system. Your issue is definitely infra-red based. Most likely poor programming based upon the fact that you can still use the control4 remote to change channels, etc after turning it on manually however this is just speculation based upon the limited information you've given.

[Cyknight]

small note: if the Balun is used to also send IR signals, an issue with the balun WOULD explain control issues of the TV

[lippavisual]

small note: if the Balun is used to also send IR signals, an issue with the balun WOULD explain control issues of the TV

 

I think I even mentioned this in one of the other threads that FLA started.  If the installer is using the built-in ports for IR on the HDMI baluns, get him to change the pathway for IR using a separate cable.  If CAT5/6 is the only available spare wire, so be it, it should work no problem.

 

I've used several manufacturers over the years for HDMI baluns and a few of them were notorious for having intermittent IR problems.  Learned my lesson and will always use a separate cable for now on.  Some manufacturers even supply some adapters needed for using the IR ports with a control system, ae your baluns like this?

 

Try that out and see if it makes your system more stable.  You shouldn't be charged a dime for these pesky issues.

[SMHarman]

You've kind of answered your own question. Especially from your previous posts concerning all the issues you've had.

To me, sounds like a bad electrical system design or the contractor just cut corners.

Around my parts, this is how the electrical is typically laid out. (Provided we get in on time before the build or the builder uses a competent contractor)

1. All lights/ceiling fans to each individual room on 1 dedicated 15A circuit.

2. All convenience receptacle outlets to each individual room on 1 dedicated 15A circuit (does not include AV outlets).

3. All receptacle outlets for AV purposes will be dedicated 15A circuits and will originate from the same phase of power.

4. All receptacle outlets in the AV closet will be dedicated 20A circuits and will originate from the same phase of power.

Hope this helps.

How would 208v supply be connected here? They span both phases and would cause inductive noise.

[Alt]

I would find out what model baluns they used as the B-100-HDMATRIX-8x8 is hdmi only output.  I would also recommend battery backup on all control4 gear including the baluns on the TV side.

[lippavisual]

How would 208v supply be connected here? They span both phases and would cause inductive noise.

True, in some cases, but not much.  Obviously, it would be a dedicated circuit for that much load.  As long as its on its own breaker, shouldn't have an issue.  Having all AV equipment powered by the same phase would drastically reduce any ground loops.  Problems arise when AV equipment are on the same circuits as motors (ceiling fans), specialty dimmers, convenience outlets (plugging in a vacuum).  All of these scenarios can cause a dip or spike in voltage, which in turn does drastic things to AV products.

[alanchow]

small note: if the Balun is used to also send IR signals, an issue with the balun WOULD explain control issues of the TV

I don't think this is the cause as the OP says that he can even use the control4 remote to change channels and even turn off the TV.

[Cyknight]

I don't think this is the cause as the OP says that he can even use the control4 remote to change channels and even turn off the TV.

 

Not saying it was - just pointing out that the idea of the balun freezing causing loss of control is possible

[MakeItAMudLight]

I don't think this is the cause as the OP says that he can even use the control4 remote to change channels and even turn off the TV.

I was thinking he could still change the channels because his tuners are in his rack.  This however doesn't explain why it can turn the TV off.  

[FLA]

This morning I sent a text to my dealer with the content that Lippavisual had in his post above. My dealer took offense to it and said that he was not going forward based off advice from users in an online control owners forum and that I was insulting him and not trusting him. I told him nonsense and that everyone needs some help or advice at times.

 

So here is the latest. I met my dealer at my house and he was with an electrical design guy that works for an electrical company. The design guy had his laptop with an oscilloscope program. I have a 200 amp electrical service where the electrical line comes in and a 200 amp sub panel on the other side of the house. He hooked his oscilloscope up to both electrical panels, my equipment rack. He said I was getting noisy power at my rack even after the power passing through my power conditioner. He could see the interference when each dimmer in the house was turned on. He could also see interference at each power panel. He saw interference coming in from the electric company line at my service. They are going to do some more tests. One being connecting some type of device to determine the time periods I get the most interference. He says that he believes that the fix is a large power conditioner that attaches at my electrical service and another  that attaches to the sub panel. He mentioned an approximate price of $1,200. for each conditioner. I still don't understand why the samsung remote turned the TV on and the C4 remote would not. He said had something to do with the balun and the other end of the rack which didn't make sense to me. 

[Tokead]

Here's an off the wall suggestion (I'm not a dealer). Before spending $2400 on conditioners plus what you've spent in time and money already,

(1) have your dealer add a card access zigbee to IR to your project and see if you can control a tv with it 100%. That could indicate an issue with the balun and/or power source in the rack affecting the balun. I make that assumption based on the fact the TV works with its OEM remote, so it's not an issue with power in the room, and the cable box in the rack works, so it's not an issue with power or driver in the rack. If it still doesn't work, I'd look at the tv driver in the project given they're all the same manufacturer. Or

(2) have someone remote in and look at the programming as it could be a dealer issue (wouldn't be impressed with his defensiveness). or

(3) get C4 engaged to look at the project Or

(4) borrow a TV from a buddy or Costco. Add to the project and see if you have the same issue. If you don't, it could be the programming.

I make these suggestions based on the fact that you don't appear to have any other issues with zigbee or other devices in the house that surely would be affected if it was a power issue. Also because the issue is isolated to the tvs and nothing else.

Hopefully suggestions make sense. Bugger to write on a phone.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FLA]

Here's an off the wall suggestion (I'm not a dealer). Before spending $2400 on conditioners plus what you've spent in time and money already,

(1) have your dealer add a card access zigbee to IR to your project and see if you can control a tv with it 100%. That could indicate an issue with the balun and/or power source in the rack affecting the balun. I make that assumption based on the fact the TV works with its OEM remote, so it's not an issue with power in the room, and the cable box in the rack works, so it's not an issue with power or driver in the rack. If it still doesn't work, I'd look at the tv driver in the project given they're all the same manufacturer. Or

(2) have someone remote in and look at the programming as it could be a dealer issue (wouldn't be impressed with his defensiveness). or

(3) get C4 engaged to look at the project Or

(4) borrow a TV from a buddy or Costco. Add to the project and see if you have the same issue. If you don't, it could be the programming.

I make these suggestions based on the fact that you don't appear to have any other issues with zigbee or other devices in the house that surely would be affected if it was a power issue. Also because the issue is isolated to the tvs and nothing else.

Hopefully suggestions make sense. Bugger to write on a phone.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tokead, please excuse my ignorance but.

1. What is a card access zigbee IR? Its hard for me to suggest to my dealer to do anything at this point because he is so defensive and just discounts it because he thinks he knows much more than anyone on this site. I also have a hard time believing that there is a problem with the power because as you say the TV turns on with its OM remote and the C4 remote can control rack functions. 

2. Cyknight was good enough to look at my programming and he did not see anything wrong with it.

3. In order to get C4 involved I thought it would take a dealer to initiate. Also I don't think it is C4 related I think it's either balun problems, possibly non shielded cable problems or possibly power interference problems.

4. Borrowing a TV especially another brand could be a good idea but of course my dealer would have to install it. 

Keep in mind that I have made other related problem posts that include my living room tv blinking on and off when I turn on two dimmer light switches  on different ends of the house. The picture on my kitchen TV intermittently does not turn on. So there are other issues probably related to the same ultimate problem.

[SMHarman]

Asking because the other's here know more.

Snap av B100 and baluns.

Is that hdbaset?

[SMHarman]

1 cardaccess zigbee to ir is what it says on the box.

It takes a zigbee command from control4 and outputs it as an IR signal.

Toke is suggested you replace the IR commands sent to the tv by the balun with ones sent by z>IR. If it is the balum that is sleeping on the job and not getting that message through then this would fix that.

Also get hold of the install specs for the baluns and matrix. Understand the cable requirements it has. I think it is plain CAT6 but may recommend shielded over a certain length. Something to discuss with the dealer.

Finally have you tried pulling the tv's from the matrix and then adding them back individually to see if one of them connected causes problems with all of them?

[Tokead]

Here's a link. Card Access is part of C4. http://www.cepro.com/article/card_access_zigbee-to-ir_module_facilitates_total_automation/

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk