Houselogix need to be sold to C4!

[Tokead]

I appreciate the fact that someone so inclined is able to make a driver, thanks to C4 being open. Without that, we would be stuck to C4's priorities and limited by their resource constraints.

I think Houselogix is providing a great service, giving many of the programmers a central point of contact to sell their drivers and providing support to their customers. They are, for all intent and purpose, C4's driver store. Why change what works?

As for C4, I'd love for them to step back a couple of years and post on their site what equipment they have drivers for. It made it easy for me to pick an AVR, and I didn't have to bug my dealer.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[LSDave]

"waaah waaah wahhh..... DRIVERS ARE TOO EXPENSIVE.... they dont have drivers for this

they dont have drivers for that."

Sounds like a steak appetite on a bologna budget.   You have to pay to play.

In the end, there are excellent solutions out there for pretty much every product category that Control4 supports with free drivers.

It might not be the nice products that you as a hobbyist want to "play" around with. but majority of users have their system designed, installed and programmed, then they just USE it.

[therockhr]

36 minutes ago, LSDave said:

"waaah waaah wahhh..... DRIVERS ARE TOO EXPENSIVE.... they dont have drivers for this

they dont have drivers for that."

Sounds like a steak appetite on a bologna budget.   You have to pay to play.

In the end, there are excellent solutions out there for pretty much every product category that Control4 supports with free drivers.

It might not be the nice products that you as a hobbyist want to "play" around with. but majority of users have their system designed, installed and programmed, then they just USE it.

"You have to pay to play"

"steak appetite on a bologna budget"

you've pretty much hit all the annoying poster cliches on here  

All around terrible post. Congrats. 

[blub]

I think C4 needs to make drivers or encurage /pay companies to make drivers for their own hardware under some circumstances - I.e. if a new hardware/device class exists which can be a huge benefit/extention for HE systems where no 3rd party dev is in sight.

So for the moment I think that would be house appliances - washer dryer and so on.

I think everything else is served fine the way it is as there is almost no limit as long as there are enough developers.

The only thing I am missing is a sort of central register for drivers to look things up - so that I do not have to browse so many websites :-)

[alex.cytexone]

Hey guys, I've been noticing some pretty not cool posts on this thread. Keep it rad and be excellent to each other or I'll have to lock this out. . 

[prabeau]

10 hours ago, seth_j said:

I've been developing drivers since 1.6 and I have no idea what this post or thread is about.

(Sent from Tapatalk)

Complaining !

[seth_j]

I will say that more often than not when someone approaches me (dealer, manufacturer, or end user) and asks "Why doesn't a driver exist for ProductX?" there's usually a pretty damn good reason.

Either the product does not work, doesn't have a working API, or competes directly with another product in such a way that the effort to write the driver would never make economical sense. In Honeywell's case I've heard the API was a nightmare. So was/is NEST's API... and look now people are realizing what we have been saying for a long time: Its not even the best thermostat it just looks pretty. _{Use Ecobee.}

Real example: This past week or so I was approached by a dealer asking why a particular camera model (by a big manufacturer) didn't work with Control4 even though the specs say RTSP is supported. I opened up a quick testing program I made to check and sure enough RTSP isn't implemented correctly -- which is what Control4 needs. Most NVRs support what the camera does for video but not Control4. One can argue that Control4 should support a million edge cases or that the camera manufacturer needs to update their firmware for the Control4 edge case.

Neither is going to happen though.

The way the real world works the manufacturer will keep putting out OEM products from who knows where that they don't control the firmware on and Control4 will support those systems that meet the real spec since they aren't an NVR manufacturer. Its a bummer but oh well -- you buy a camera that does work and move on.

 

There are also a number of other factors like product availability, support, marketing, websites, maintenance updates, and marketshare that no one ever thinks of when it comes to writing drivers. All of it is work and most of it costs something. 

We aren't 19 year olds typing up code in our parents basement. We have beer and coffee to buy and some of us make our actual living feeding our families developing drivers for Control4 systems. Nothing stops Control4 from plowing over anyone of us and making their own solution.

[msgreenf]

10 minutes ago, seth_j said:

Use Ecobee.

+1

[RyanE]

I disagree about Nest's *API/protocol* being a nightmare, BTW.

Yes, it took them *a year* to release it from when they announced it, and yes, there are *significant* limitations on rate of access, but other than that, it's one of the more well-thought-out protocols I've seen.

... And eventually, they even added 'call for heat' and 'call for cool', without happening to tell us.

RyanE

 

[badjesus]

15 hours ago, Cyknight said:

If you mean AVU - I wouldn't consider that a chain so much as a cooperation. AVU isn't a dealer - there are AVU members that are C4 dealers.

No, not them. 

[badjesus]

Clearly there is a huge disconnect on opinion, but also, look at how fast this thread grew and how many people posted. You don't have a topic that is as hot as this is there isn't an issue. Looking through, this is about 50/50 as well. How quickly this thread grew, and how many people had input clearly shows this is something that is a real issue.

And this is with me including the people that posted last night who clearly didn't read the thread and actually thought this was just about FREE drivers and complaining despite there being about 12 posts reiterating it isn't about FREE drivers. Which honestly means that more people tend to agree that C4 needs to do something better with drivers. Whether it is a voting system, supporting companies better to have them build drivers, offering benefits to third party developers to develop cheaper apps, or a SAS model with monthly fees. It seems most people have at least agreed that SOMETHING should be done, just no consensus on what.

I think that one of the beautiful things about this forum is that C4 employees do actually read this, and that some of our long term members here are involved hands on with C4 to help make change. While some people on here just want to slam us users like we are whiners, despite us being the ones that do put food in their kids mouths, our opinions do matter to the direction of the company. When users no longer have any interest in supporting you company, that tends to hurt a year end income statement. 

We don't all need to agree, but this just shows that clearly there is a huge difference of opinion between dealers and users. You can say that users are just whining and wanting things for free, despite us proving and reiterating over and over that was not what this post was about..... but you can also say the dealers are whining because they are refusing to adapt to the growing needs of the new generation of automation customers. Adapt and grow, or you will lose your customers to people that do care. 

 

[seth_j]

23 minutes ago, RyanE said:

I disagree about Nest's *API/protocol* being a nightmare, BTW.

Yes, it took them *a year* to release it from when they announced it, and yes, there are *significant* limitations on rate of access, but other than that, it's one of the more well-thought-out protocols I've seen.

... And eventually, they even added 'call for heat' and 'call for cool', without happening to tell us.

RyanE

 

I was talking about the quality of the product not the API but I should have been more clear.

[badjesus]

9 hours ago, therockhr said:

"You have to pay to play"

"steak appetite on a bologna budget"

you've pretty much hit all the annoying poster cliches on here  

All around terrible post. Congrats. 

Amen

[seth_j]

8 minutes ago, badjesus said:

Clearly there is a huge disconnect on opinion, but also, look at how fast this thread grew and how many people posted. You don't have a topic that is as hot as this is there isn't an issue. Looking through, this is about 50/50 as well. How quickly this thread grew, and how many people had input clearly shows this is something that is a real issue.

And this is with me including the people that posted last night who clearly didn't read the thread and actually thought this was just about FREE drivers and complaining despite there being about 12 posts reiterating it isn't about FREE drivers. Which honestly means that more people tend to agree that C4 needs to do something better with drivers. Whether it is a voting system, supporting companies better to have them build drivers, offering benefits to third party developers to develop cheaper apps, or a SAS model with monthly fees. It seems most people have at least agreed that SOMETHING should be done, just no consensus on what.

I think that one of the beautiful things about this forum is that C4 employees do actually read this, and that some of our long term members here are involved hands on with C4 to help make change. While some people on here just want to slam us users like we are whiners, despite us being the ones that do put food in their kids mouths, our opinions do matter to the direction of the company. When users no longer have any interest in supporting you company, that tends to hurt a year end income statement. 

We don't all need to agree, but this just shows that clearly there is a huge difference of opinion between dealers and users. You can say that users are just whining and wanting things for free, despite us proving and reiterating over and over that was not what this post was about..... but you can also say the dealers are whining because they are refusing to adapt to the growing needs of the new generation of automation customers. Adapt and grow, or you will lose your customers to people that do care. 

 

I'm still unsure what this thread is actually about. Your post here and the dozen before it saying that this isn't about FREE drivers don't make that case.

• Control4 supports more products out of the box than any other platform hands down. 
• There is a small 3rd party developer for a few of the edge cases.
• There are some drivers and products that don't have support and may have support elsewhere.
• If there is a big enough demand 3rd parties will pick it up and if there is even more Control4 will write one (or buy the 3rd party out) and make it free.

How can they do better than that? I don't know of a way... Bigger companies do the exact same and people don't complain. 

Apple is another software company that makes hardware. They make a Calendar app. It is okay. Fantastical is better. Some people pay for a calendar app (OMG). Apple has started introducing some of Fantastical's features over time and they come free now. How is that any different?

[badjesus]

36 minutes ago, seth_j said:

I'm still unsure what this thread is actually about. Your post here and the dozen before it saying that this isn't about FREE drivers don't make that case.

• Control4 supports more products out of the box than any other platform hands down. 
• There is a small 3rd party developer for a few of the edge cases.
• There are some drivers and products that don't have support and may have support elsewhere.
• If there is a big enough demand 3rd parties will pick it up and if there is even more Control4 will write one (or buy the 3rd party out) and make it free.

How can they do better than that? I don't know of a way... Bigger companies do the exact same and people don't complain. 

Apple is another software company that makes hardware. They make a Calendar app. It is okay. Fantastical is better. Some people pay for a calendar app (OMG). Apple has started introducing some of Fantastical's features over time and they come free now. How is that any different?

It has been mentioned several times that we are talking about very popular "internet of things" devices that third part developers clearly see the value in building drivers (as they are some of the most commonly sold drivers) yet C4 does not. So for simple devices, you have to shell out hundreds for something that IS included in competitors stock. 

Again, it isn't about free. It is about REASONABLE which I have used that exact sentence several times throughout this thread. $150 USD for a $40 USD device is not reasonable in the eyes of the consumer. 

If C4 did a better job of building these relationships (which above, it makes it sound like there is no alternative. Well their growing competition IS doing this) then we would have these drivers available. C4 looks at it like if a third party developer chose to build a $150 USD driver for a $40 unit then that is taken off their list so they don't have to. 

Meanwhile, the consumer is being forced to either shell out the money for hardware that is even more expensive or shell out the money for the driver. 

Again, in my first thread, I personally am FINE with paying the amount. I have no issue with supporting driver developers and my accounts from the old EV and now with HOuselogix proves this. However; I also get that there are A LOT of people turned off by C4 because of this. And... that hurts us ALL. The most people turned away from C4 because of something that could just simply be done better, then the less support we have as a community and the less C4 grows. 

We are just saying there are ways to better the system. The fact that this many people have replied I think is proving this. To your three points above, it is nice to say that, but the consumer isn't really seeing it. It is all around the dealer model, but what about the entire other market? What about all of the self educated home automation guys that is one of the fastest growing electronics retail categories right now (according to companies like NPD). The "Smart Home" industry is rapidly growing, and those customers are going to be turned off from C4. Dealers tend to look at it like DIY'ers aren't their customer base anyways. This is a VERY common misconception because DIY'ers are no longer just looking for something the can tinker with themselves on the weekend. They are looking to do the research on their own, learn about it, and more than fine with paying someone for the install and support to get it in the best way. However; they are going to start with basic items. Like a honeywell WIFI Tstat, or Nest, or Ring, or IFTTT, or Kodi, or whatever. Once they get a taste for the basics and they want to tie it all together properly, google will bring them to C4. And when they start to plan a budget before talking to a dealer they aren't going to be able to have any transparency to driver costs. 

That is what this thread is about. It isn't about Free drivers. It is about access, communication, transparency, fair, reasonable, and growing the C4 community to meet the growing needs of one of the fastest retail emerging trends of 2015. 

[badjesus]

46 minutes ago, seth_j said:

Apple is another software company that makes hardware. They make a Calendar app. It is okay. Fantastical is better. Some people pay for a calendar app (OMG). Apple has started introducing some of Fantastical's features over time and they come free now. How is that any different?

Is comparing C4 to Apple a good thing? lol    --- Yes, they are being like Apple was back in the day. Isn't that part of the issue?
Apple is Apple for one reason, marketing and the innocence of buyers. Home Automation is NOT the same market and C4 is not on the same marketing level as Apple was/is. Not even the same ballpark. 

On top of this, Apple's goal was closed and in EVERY customer's home. C4 is showing they are not trying to be in EVERY home because of the current dealer model and alienating customers that are DIY'ers and DO want it in their home. C4 is luxury, not every man like Apple was. (Although Apple has since been able to become luxury). Let's not forget their largest failures (NeXt) are due to price point and trying to be luxury before it was common. To me, this is exactly what C4 is doing. 

Also, C4 is not closed source like Apple was. In fact, C4 talks like they are open but then are closed just from their developer portal. They could easily make development for other companies easier with an open SDK as they talk. It is available, they just make it difficult to the point where no one is going out of their way. 

So while I agree with your statement, it is no different from Apple, I am not sure that is a good thing. Not at this current moment in growth anyways. 



 

[seth_j]

13 minutes ago, badjesus said:

Again, it isn't about free. It is about REASONABLE which I have used that exact sentence several times throughout this thread. $150 USD for a $40 USD device is not reasonable in the eyes of the consumer. 

Then they don't have to buy the integration. Simple.

My point is you have no idea what it took to integrate with and continue support that $40 device. So its really not up to you to determine reasonable pricing. Its up to the developer -- knowing that the dealer will either try to mark up the price or sell install labor or both. If the developer says its costs $150 for his work thats what it is.

 

Quote

If C4 did a better job of building these relationships (which above, it makes it sound like there is no alternative. Well their growing competition IS doing this) then we would have these drivers available. C4 looks at it like if a third party developer chose to build a $150 USD driver for a $40 unit then that is taken off their list so they don't have to. 

I don't think you are in a position to say C4 is or is not working on relationships. 

 

19 minutes ago, badjesus said:

However; I also get that there are A LOT of people turned off by C4 because of this. And... that hurts us ALL. The most people turned away from C4 because of something that could just simply be done better, then the less support we have as a community and the less C4 grows. 

Ok.. well they can take their business to.... some other platform that has free drivers?? I cant think of one. Maybe SmartThings that keeps failing. Or Vera which does 1/10th of the job C4 does. Surely not Crestron or Savant. Same thing exists there. Seems like a stupid reason to leave a platform if you ask me. 

 

15 minutes ago, badjesus said:

Is comparing C4 to Apple a good thing? lol    --- Yes, they are being like Apple was back in the day. Isn't that part of the issue?
Apple is Apple for one reason, marketing and the innocence of buyers. Home Automation is NOT the same market and C4 is not on the same marketing level as Apple was/is. Not even the same ballpark. 

Google does the same thing. If you dont like Apple whatever. Pick your other massive tech company. They all move like big ships. They dont turn on a dime ever. They dont go after the flakey new tech that some blogger at Gizmodo or Engadget who has been writing about home technology for 6 months says is the best ever. 

My point stands. 

[seth_j]

36 minutes ago, badjesus said:

Also, C4 is not closed source like Apple was. In fact, C4 talks like they are open but then are closed just from their developer portal. They could easily make development for other companies easier with an open SDK as they talk. It is available, they just make it difficult to the point where no one is going out of their way. 

Apple is still extremely closed source. They have a developer program that exposes public APIs only.. just like Control4 does with Driverworks.

[therockhr]

1 hour ago, seth_j said:

I'm still unsure what this thread is actually about. Your post here and the dozen before it saying that this isn't about FREE drivers don't make that case.

• Control4 supports more products out of the box than any other platform hands down. 
• There is a small 3rd party developer for a few of the edge cases.
• There are some drivers and products that don't have support and may have support elsewhere.
• If there is a big enough demand 3rd parties will pick it up and if there is even more Control4 will write one (or buy the 3rd party out) and make it free.

How can they do better than that? I don't know of a way... Bigger companies do the exact same and people don't complain. 

Apple is another software company that makes hardware. They make a Calendar app. It is okay. Fantastical is better. Some people pay for a calendar app (OMG). Apple has started introducing some of Fantastical's features over time and they come free now. How is that any different?

This thread is about Control4 not trying to expand its customer base by offering free, or at least cheap, drivers for popular IoT devices that other retail hubs/software supports out of the box. It makes adding Control4 on top of those devices near impossible when they have to buy multiple $200 drivers to control something that they already have an app for. 

[msgreenf]

@badjesus not to throw fuel on the fire - but if you think it would be a good business model to have a premium driver store with a monthly subscription, nothing prevents you from hiring Devs, writing drivers and then selling it...

[seth_j]

1 minute ago, therockhr said:

This thread is about Control4 not trying to expand its customer base by offering free, or at least cheap, drivers for popular IoT devices that other retail hubs/software supports out of the box. It makes adding Control4 on top of those devices near impossible when they have to buy multiple $200 drivers to control something that they already have control over. 

Thanks. I respectfully disagree but thank you. 

I outlined why developing drivers for every flash in the pan IoT device isn't practical as well. You guys can take that whichever way you want I guess. Everyone else is saying I'm waisting my time here and I guess at this point I am. 

[badjesus]

1 minute ago, msgreenf said:

@badjesus not to throw fuel on the fire - but if you think it would be a good business model to have a premium driver store with a monthly subscription, nothing prevents you from hiring Devs, writing drivers and then selling it...

If you think that, you clearly didn't read what I wrote then. That would perpetuate the problem in my opinion. 

[therockhr]

3 minutes ago, seth_j said:

Apple is still extremely closed source. They have a developer program that exposes public APIs only.. just like Control4 does with Driverworks.

Control4 is nothing like Apple. If we want to have real conversations we have to stop comparing these companies.

The only business that custom AV/integration is comparable with is the PLC/automation industry.

[therockhr]

1 minute ago, seth_j said:

Thanks. I respectfully disagree but thank you. 

I outlined why developing drivers for every flash in the pan IoT device isn't practical as well. You guys can take that whichever way you want I guess. Everyone else is saying I'm waisting my time here and I guess at this point I am. 

Honeywell, HAI, Chamberlain, Ecobee, Phillips, Lutron (its a free driver but I still question why it wasn't done in house), Phillips, Rachio, etc. are devices that will be around for awhile.

[msgreenf]

5 minutes ago, badjesus said:

If you think that, you clearly didn't read what I wrote then. That would perpetuate the problem in my opinion. 

Well I did read what you are saying, but if Control4 doesn't do it - nothing prevents you from executing this idea.