Newest New guy EVER. Building home, where to start?

[neil12011]

18 hours ago, Gnarlynickb said:

eggzlot, your system clearly is a thing of beauty.

 

I agree, I'm biased though!

[FLA]

4 hours ago, South Africa C4 user said:

Yes. From memory, it is done in the room itself under monitoring and choosing navigator 

Thx

[forum]

Much of your.decision depends on the size of the project.

The DIY market has become more robust. You see, Control4 began taking the higher end market from Creation.

But now Google, Amazon, Apple, Lutron, Logitech, Sonos are taking away Control4s market by servicing what most people need.

Most people can simply enjoy 6 Chromecast Audios plugged into a 6 channel amp, Logitech remotes, Lutron Caseta, all tied into Amazon Alexa. They are well priced, reliable, and no dealer involvement needed.

The one thing that will exhaust you is that you are tied to a dealer, and this can mean having to keep spending money Everytime a new innovation happens. Vendor Lock In can be a dangerous thing. 

 

[forum]

I'd also recommend 2 rg6, 1 cat5e, 1 shielded cat5e, 1 cat6 to each TV location.

2 cat6 to each data jack (in & out).

Run a 2" conduit from the basement to the attic.

[RyanE]

1 hour ago, forum said:

But now Google, Amazon, Apple, Lutron, Logitech, Sonos are taking away Control4s market by servicing what most people need.

I disagree with that in a major way.  Control4's market has been growing, as it's a public company, you can see Control4 sales growing year over year, and not all of that is growth in the Crestron-like "high end".

Most of those listed only provide a *very small* part of the integration capabilities of Control4.

Some of those listed (Sonos, Lutron) only provide *a single* locus of automation (Music, Lighting), and can't be compared to Control4 for automation.

The others, Google, Amazon, Apple may be the bees knees if you *only* want voice control and maybe *simple* lights, but integrating anything other than IoT devices and a handful of audio gear (Sonos) is futile and/or impossible.

RyanE

 

[msgreenf]

And very few other vendors offer full line automation.

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk

[forum]

My mistake for generalizing. Lets entertain these thoughts, it's a great discussion.

So lets say one has an average 2,600 square foot home.

Lets say they were to outfit the home with

• Logitech remotes
• Nest or Ecobee3
• Lutron Caseta Dimmers and Pico Remotes (50 device limit but should cover this size home easily)
• Lutron Blinds 
• (Sonos + Alexa) or + (Chromecast Audio & Video w/Google Home).
• August Door Locks

What specific automation features will a person get with Control4 that the combination above won't provide?

1. Everything in one app is what comes to mind. But I think Alexa is kind of the All in one app in this case?

I'm excited to hear responses as I like Control4 but I see so many products coming together that threatens what Control4 has established.

[msgreenf]

My mistake for generalizing. Lets entertain these thoughts, it's a great discussion.

So lets say one has an average 2,600 square foot home.

Lets say they were to outfit the home with

• Logitech remotes
• Nest or Ecobee3
• Lutron Caseta Dimmers and Pico Remotes (50 device limit but should cover this size home easily)
• Lutron Blinds 
• (Sonos + Alexa) or + (Chromecast Audio & Video w/Google Home).
• August Door Locks

What specific automation features will a person get with Control4 that the combination above won't provide?

1. Everything in one app is what comes to mind. But I think Alexa is kind of the All in one app in this case?

I'm excited to hear responses as I like Control4 but I see so many products coming together that threatens what Control4 has established.

A single solution. Do you want 10 apps or 1?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[RyanE]

I'm not as familiar with Logitech's offerings, but here are the things I personally think I would miss / have difficulty with:

* Along with the 'single app' issue (which is a significant one, IMHO), you also have the 'different interface' issue.  That is, accessing the devices from their separate apps likely has a different interface than using the Logitech remote to control the devices.  In Control4, it doesn't matter if you're using the Control4 iOS app on an iPhone, the Control4 Android app on a phone, the Flash-based Desktop software, a Control4 touchscreen, or even the SR-250, the interface to control the device is consistent.  I don't have to teach my wife how to use the UI, because it's the same UI everywhere.  Of course, with the Logitech, you don't have touchscreens or an on-screen interface, so YMMV.

* Along the same lines, if I have lighting from Hue, RGB lighting I made myself, and Control4 or Lutron lighting, all in the same project, they all look and work the same way.  Same goes for thermostats.  I personally have both Aprilaire and Radiant thermostats in my system, and they both look and work the same way within Control4.

* One-way control vs. Two-way control with feedback.  Control4 has a larger selection of two-way drivers for devices, including things like music services and the Dish Hopper, which provides a much richer interface.

* Automation programming.  IMHO, this is the biggest drawback to a non-fully-integrated system.  In my house, I have 'walkaround lighting', which utilizes the motion sensors from the security panel to ramp lights up to 'walkaround levels' without ever picking up a remote.  I have programming that sends me a text / push message with the name of who unlocked the door when my Kwikset / Yale locks are unlocked, and notifications when the garage door opens/closes.  I also have a lot of other custom programming that you just can't do with the 'remote-based' (or *any* of the voice-based/phone-based) systems.

I certainly won't deny that there are definitely competitors working at doing some of what Control4 does (and in some cases doing it quite well), but most are still a long way from doing *all* of what Control4 does.

RyanE

[arden.ballard]

I'm not as familiar with Logitech's offerings, but here are the things I personally think I would miss / have difficulty with:

* Along with the 'single app' issue (which is a significant one, IMHO), you also have the 'different interface' issue.  That is, accessing the devices from their separate apps likely has a different interface than using the Logitech remote to control the devices.  In Control4, it doesn't matter if you're using the Control4 iOS app on an iPhone, the Control4 Android app on a phone, the Flash-based Desktop software, a Control4 touchscreen, or even the SR-250, the interface to control the device is consistent.  I don't have to teach my wife how to use the UI, because it's the same UI everywhere.  Of course, with the Logitech, you don't have touchscreens or an on-screen interface, so YMMV.

* Along the same lines, if I have lighting from Hue, RGB lighting I made myself, and Control4 or Lutron lighting, all in the same project, they all look and work the same way.  Same goes for thermostats.  I personally have both Aprilaire and Radiant thermostats in my system, and they both look and work the same way within Control4.

* One-way control vs. Two-way control with feedback.  Control4 has a larger selection of two-way drivers for devices, including things like music services and the Dish Hopper, which provides a much richer interface.

* Automation programming.  IMHO, this is the biggest drawback to a non-fully-integrated system.  In my house, I have 'walkaround lighting', which utilizes the motion sensors from the security panel to ramp lights up to 'walkaround levels' without ever picking up a remote.  I have programming that sends me a text / push message with the name of who unlocked the door when my Kwikset / Yale locks are unlocked, and notifications when the garage door opens/closes.  I also have a lot of other custom programming that you just can't do with the 'remote-based' (or *any* of the voice-based/phone-based) systems.

I certainly won't deny that there are definitely competitors working at doing some of what Control4 does (and in some cases doing it quite well), but most are still a long way from doing *all* of what Control4 does.

RyanE

To me, this is what is most important to my particular build. We're building around 3,000 Sq ft, and C4's ability to work seamlessly with so many products is what drew me to it. I have a wife that I need to use simple terms with when it comes to the one harmony remote we have currently. I'd rather her have one app to control everything (otherwise I'll hear about it for the rest of my days)

The ability for me to complete my build in stages is also attractive. I have an idea on what I'd like to see in the home but have no idea what the end price will be. After the wires are run, I'm happy to set stuff later if I need to.

Thanks@ryanE, I may have to look you up when I start the build!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cyknight]

Ryan works directly for C4 - I doubt he'll be installing your system

 

But yeah, it's about the all-in-one (function AND interface look and feel) and ease of use for anyone walking into the house. That has always been the point, be it 'one remote' or 'one app' is just different terms for different times.

 

Wire, wire, then wire some more. Add what you want/need now and expand later, but get those wires (and/or conduit) in place.

 

[Elvis]

I'll start off, @arden.ballard by saying I'm very jealous. We were planning to build but found the perfect lot/acreage/view -- too bad it had a house on it.

A/C (vs. battery) blinds are quieter and last longer, easier to maintain.

Wired security sensors are more reliable (in my opinion) and are generally smaller than battery-powered. 

My "perfect" house had combination electronic/media closets within HDMI cable run length of the respective television. If you have gaming consoles, to my knowledge, it is best is if they are where the players are -- so this design kept it close by. I had concerns, at the time, of limitations of Baluns. I don't know the current limitations (if any) of 4k over Cat6/Baluns -- so this might not be an issue anymore. I could have, and should have put a back door on my electronics closet. 

Light switches in the doors to pantries, closets, etc. where you always want the light on if the door is open. With little kids, you might want the kind that have a built-in timer. That way if they leave the door open the light will eventually go off.

External power and wiring: Previous owner had power all over the place outside. Very nice. He didn't put power in the eve's for Christmas lights -- I saw this at an open house. One switch and Griswold Family Christmas turns on.

In-wall and in-ceiling speakers -- probably personal preference but I've outgrown (read: I'm old) and over "showing off" my speakers. This is where a designer/integrator will really help. I have adult kids (empty-nest) and everyone has an iPhone. I want my kids to be able to Airplay or "Echo Play" their own music wherever they want. Ask specific questions when you talk to the designer/integrator. Find out how many apps you might have to use to get what you want -- in my opinion 1 is the max, but 2 wouldn't kill the deal as long as I don't have to keep flipping back and forth.

If you want a video doorbell, plan for it. This house has no place for one -- it would have to be 90* to the door. 

As far as Control4 goes, it is dealer-centric and can be expensive. If you have a great dealer, and deep pockets -- then you are all set. Just make a call and he'll make it right. But for some things, you have to step up to an even more dealer-centric and more expensive system, to do better. (Crestron, etc.) Look around for a 4-zone matrix amplifier, for example. Google that and you'll be taken to C4.

What I didn't like was how C4 has kind of a closed system in the way of their own hardware. For example, C4 switches are proprietary on Zigbee. I have another home automation hub, and have used several, and you can't pair C4 zigbee devices with these hubs. But I can control my Z-wave switches with Control4 and numerous (too many to count) other HA hubs. And IoT devices normally can only be paired with one device. In this sense, C4 shines. I added a driver for my other HA hub (Wink2) and I can control my house with C4, Wink, Echo, Siri, etc. (I can't control the TV with Siri yet)

My lessons learned are: Wire everything. Power everything. Label everything. Your wife's closet can't be too big. You can't have too many spare closets. Use sound insulation around noisy rooms/home theater/mancaves.

Finally, see it in action with the systems you plan to use. If you use DirecTV, AppleTV, listen to Spotify, want Hunter-Douglas blinds -- find these in use with the control system you are considering and see it in action.

Good luck.

[forum]

I've also found over the years that Control4 pulls in only  some of the data and usefulness of a system component.

For example, I still have to open up the Sonos app to do updates, thumbs up a song, see why the heck control4 didn't press 'play'. If Sonos is running, I can quickly pull down the notification tray in Android and volume, pause, skip track, mute. It's way faster than loading the the control4 app to make on the fly adjusts to volume etc.

Control4 doesn't have widgets for Android. I have all my Lutron scenes in a widget in Android, I swipe over to a screen with my widget and launch a scene. Takes half a second to launch a scene from the Android widget.

I find that Control4 doesn't include many of the features in the Control4 app that a product offers.

For example my Ecobee3, Control4s driver is missing some of the best parts. I always have to use the Ecobee3 app.

Control4 is also missing many many features from the Apple music app and Google music App I also have to launch those.

Actually, the more I think about this, control4 isn't truly a one app solution at all, considering I still need to use other apps to accomplish tasks. (Building a playlist?, Playback camera recordings?, Ring my video doorstation and have live two way audio communication (when I'm not at home) with the Control4 app?)

[Shardik]

As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, the ability to actually automate everything the way you can with C4 is huge. I too wanted the one app solution, but I find myself lately really getting the most out of the system with the keypads and scheduling. i have my wife's favorite pandora station come on at the volume she likes as well as the appropriate lighting at 6am each weekday morning for when she goes downstairs. I have it timed to automatically switch to music I want when she has to leave for work. I have a goodnight button (or Alexa command) that turns all the lights and AV off downstairs, locks the doors, sets the downstairs AC on 79, sets a couple of accent lights at 10%,etc. Stuff like this is where you get the most benefit from C4 in my opinion, and I am a long, long way from reaching its full potential.

[arden.ballard]

17 hours ago, Elvis said:

My lessons learned are: Wire everything. Power everything. Label everything. Your wife's closet can't be too big. You can't have too many spare closets. Use sound insulation around noisy rooms/home theater/mancaves.

Thanks @Elvis!  I have no choice with the in wall/ceiling speaker option. My wife has already stated that she doesn't want to be looking at speakers all over the place. I don't blame her. As much as I love to listen to/play music, we are in no way audiophiles that need 5k in speakers in every room. It is important to me (and I read this recently on another site) to be prepared to have wire/outlets everywhere, including outside. I'm looking forward to that part. 

[arden.ballard]

10 hours ago, forum said:

Actually, the more I think about this, control4 isn't truly a one app solution at all, considering I still need to use other apps to accomplish tasks.

Thanks @forum, Do you think this is an Android thing? We're apple folks, but I do miss the widget functionality of android. 

[arden.ballard]

9 hours ago, Shardik said:

Stuff like this is where you get the most benefit from C4 in my opinion, and I am a long, long way from reaching its full potential.

Exactly @Shardik; this is what I'm looking forward to! Above all, I think C4 is more about customization and less about automation. It seems like the people that really like their system (from reading this forum, at least) are more in tune with the opportunity for convenience and combining features together to create some "wow" factors. 

 

Am I right in assuming this?

[Joshua Pressnell]

22 minutes ago, arden.ballard said:

Thanks @Elvis!  I have no choice with the in wall/ceiling speaker option. My wife has already stated that she doesn't want to be looking at speakers all over the place. I don't blame her. As much as I love to listen to/play music, we are in no way audiophiles that need 5k in speakers in every room. It is important to me (and I read this recently on another site) to be prepared to have wire/outlets everywhere, including outside. I'm looking forward to that part. 

Not sure if it's within your budget, but there are some pretty good "hidden speaker" options these days.  Sonance is the luxury brand that I found that does this, but I'll bet you could do a decent job of finding creative ways to hide speakers in various rooms.  One of the things that I LOVE about our setup is our whole-home audio, and I'm by no means an audiophile.  The whole-home speakers in all the major rooms just gives the audio more of a sense of "presence" than if we had the audio tied to speakers in a system or shelf.

[arden.ballard]

22 minutes ago, Joshua Pressnell said:

The whole-home speakers in all the major rooms just gives the audio more of a sense of "presence" than if we had the audio tied to speakers in a system or shelf.

I fully agree. The house we live in currently has whole home audio (poorly wired and configured, but it's there); I can't imagine what a good system sounds like! I can't wait for that. 

[Joshua Pressnell]

Another thought.  The person that built our house did a lot of thinking about having little "closets" in various parts of the house for home automation and audio stuff that's "hidden away".  There's a little cupboard in our living room bathroom that leads to an unfinished area under the stairs where there's a subwoofer, receivers, and C4 stuff.  Networking there runs straight to the main closet.  Our theater system has a rack that pulls out, and there's a full closet back there you can walk into that has wiring runs and easy access to the theater setup.  For me, the biggest thing I think about when building is how to use every last square inch of space.  If there's going to be dead space, use it for something.

[SMHarman]

Not sure if it's within your budget, but there are some pretty good "hidden speaker" options these days.  Sonance is the luxury brand that I found that does this, but I'll bet you could do a decent job of finding creative ways to hide speakers in various rooms.  One of the things that I LOVE about our setup is our whole-home audio, and I'm by no means an audiophile.  The whole-home speakers in all the major rooms just gives the audio more of a sense of "presence" than if we had the audio tied to speakers in a system or shelf.

I like the KEF Ci range. And KEF in general. Perhaps why all speakers in my house are KEF

[arden.ballard]

1 hour ago, SMHarman said:

I like the KEF Ci range. And KEF in general. Perhaps why all speakers in my house are KEF

Looks like my friend's store is one of the only KEF retailers around me. perfect! I'll check that out.

[Shardik]

4 hours ago, arden.ballard said:

Exactly @Shardik; this is what I'm looking forward to! Above all, I think C4 is more about customization and less about automation. It seems like the people that really like their system (from reading this forum, at least) are more in tune with the opportunity for convenience and combining features together to create some "wow" factors. 

 

Am I right in assuming this?

Partially right, but a lot of it is automation for me. You can schedule about anything you like to happen automatically from within Composer HE. 

[ecschnei]

On 11/13/2016 at 12:16 AM, forum said:

My mistake for generalizing. Lets entertain these thoughts, it's a great discussion.

So lets say one has an average 2,600 square foot home.

Lets say they were to outfit the home with

• Logitech remotes
• Nest or Ecobee3
• Lutron Caseta Dimmers and Pico Remotes (50 device limit but should cover this size home easily)
• Lutron Blinds 
• (Sonos + Alexa) or + (Chromecast Audio & Video w/Google Home).
• August Door Locks

What specific automation features will a person get with Control4 that the combination above won't provide?

1. Everything in one app is what comes to mind. But I think Alexa is kind of the All in one app in this case?

I'm excited to hear responses as I like Control4 but I see so many products coming together that threatens what Control4 has established.

lose internet and see what happens....LMAO!

[thegreatheed]

Not to mention this...

https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/09/logitech-will-brick-harmony-link-in-march/