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2017 Thoughts for Control4


mic2010

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2 minutes ago, therockhr said:

There is nothing magical about composer pro. if I had access to the same kb articles as the dealers I would never need training or have a need to call a dealer. 

I wouldn't go quite this far- I can envision a number of scenarios where I would still want to hire a good dealer.   But I certainly wouldn't need that to install a new driver, change bindings or swap out a Blu Ray player.  

 

But C4 seems so convinced their entire business model collapses unless they assume all their customers are incapable of using or are disinterested in learning how to use Pro.  Only a tiny fraction of end users would ever be interested in licensing Pro.  How anyone thinks that will irreparably harm the dealer base is beyond comprehension.

 

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Many people I have talked to that can easily afford Control4 have said they avoid it because of the Dealer model.

They don't like the fact that they can't just have anyone come over and help them work on their stuff. It isn't a "free market" to them.

I feel the Dealer model for technology based markets is an outdated way of thinking. And this is the simple reason Control4 and Crestron are losing the market.

Your system can only be as great as Control4 can engineer it. So very quickly, Control4 can become out innovated by another company. ie. Google.

At the end of the day it is going to be Microsoft, Apple, Google, Amazon's engineers vs Control4. Who do you think is going to win?

The reason Control4 and Crestron have had success for so many years was because the IT companies just weren't interested in the market space. Now they are.

I actually enjoy and love Control4 as a company because they are much better than most in their space. But I can certainly see them getting outpaced if the big companies continue their interests in Home Automation.

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2 hours ago, forum said:

I feel the Dealer model for technology based markets is an outdated way of thinking. And this is the simple reason Control4 and Crestron are losing the market.

Your system can only be as great as Control4 can engineer it. So very quickly, Control4 can become out innovated by another company. ie. Google.

At the end of the day it is going to be Microsoft, Apple, Google, Amazon's engineers vs Control4. Who do you think is going to win?

The reason Control4 and Crestron have had success for so many years was because the IT companies just weren't interested in the market space. Now they are.

I actually enjoy and love Control4 as a company because they are much better than most in their space. But I can certainly see them getting outpaced if the big companies continue their interests in Home Automation.

I don't see a time in the near future where the big companies will try to do whole home AV control as there are just way too many configurations and details for the average user to sort through. Those companies want a product that the consumer can plug in and be up and running with an hour or 2. There are just too many variables with whole home AV control; AVR's, satellite/cable boxes, media players, TV's, soundbars, etc. If there was a common protocol like JSON to talk to all these devices it would be one thing but considering the most popular way to control is IR I just dont see those companies getting into the type of integration that us users of Control4 are used to.

To me, I view Crestron and Control4 in 2 totally different ways. Control4 is focused on mainly on residential and Crestron is focused on commercial and very high end residential. I would imagine Crestron is doing pretty well as I see there stuff going into any nice conference/meeting room or any big conference hotel areas. As for C4, I just don't know if they can grow their userbase like they want. They are fighting with RTI, URC, Savant and Elan over the mid to high end residential segment. I don't know if that area is growing or not.

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7 hours ago, forum said:

Your system can only be as great as Control4 can engineer it. So very quickly, Control4 can become out innovated by another company. ie. Google.

At the end of the day it is going to be Microsoft, Apple, Google, Amazon's engineers vs Control4. Who do you think is going to win?

And here we go again ... Tell you what, when you have your new shiny MS, Apple, Google, Amazon device and you can't connect it to some other device do you really think you can just call up these companies and they will be 'sure, I will send out a Google engineer as soon as possible'? No, you will be stuck on forums for hours trying to figure it out.

If Google etc really wanted to get into home automation they would ... buy Control4 ... then you would still have to put up with us installers :)

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2 hours ago, NextGenAV said:

And here we go again ... Tell you what, when you have your new shiny MS, Apple, Google, Amazon device and you can't connect it to some other device do you really think you can just call up these companies and they will be 'sure, I will send out a Google engineer as soon as possible'? No, you will be stuck on forums for hours trying to figure it out.

 

My installer routinely tells me it's 4-6 weeks before he can get to my house to do almost anything.   Spending a few hours searching forums doesn't sound so bad compared to that...;)

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You seem to have some really bad installers in the US, you wouldn't get away with that in the UK. Maybe I should move over the pond? If I can't get to a client within 48 hrs then I do it at the weekend or evening.

I also have a schedule where I check in on a clients systems remotely about once a month.

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12 minutes ago, NextGenAV said:

You seem to have some really bad installers in the US, you wouldn't get away with that in the UK. Maybe I should move over the pond? If I can't get to a client within 48 hrs then I do it at the weekend or evening.

I also have a schedule where I check in on a clients systems remotely about once a month.

I don't think it's a matter of having _all_ really bad installers in the US, but I think there are more then in other regions because there are more installers in the US than anywhere else.  I would venture that as a % it's about the same.

But due to a larger install base in the US, you hear about problems  more.

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I remember walking through the "smart, connected home of the future" in Disneyland 15 or 20 years ago. Sponsored by Microsoft, with all this technology they were going to be bringing to market to do all these amazing things. None of those products are commercially available today (nor have they been in the past...at least not widely).

I also remember going through that same exhibit sometime about 10 years ago and seeing a bunch of it powered by Control4. I had already invested in Control4 at the time and thought it was pretty cool.

Like I said...you'll continue to see solutions like the Nest, Sonos, Google Home, Hue, etc... come out and address different aspects of what C4 does. I just don't see one of them taking on the A/V portion where they're producing handheld remotes that have the ability to control every device in your home.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I don't think my original dealer is bad as much as I think they focus on new work over supporting existing customers.  Because I use third party drivers they consider my system "complex" and will only send one particular installer to me.  I happen to like working with him, but his value to me is doing the physical install work.  

I get almost no value add on the software side.  If I have any problem, C4 support won't get involved unless a dealer is physically onsite even when all they do is hand the phone to me to talk to support.  That hadn't been needed often, but when it takes a month to schedule someone onsite to cover something that takes me a few minutes on the phone is very frustrating.

 If I have a question, I'm lucky if I get an acknowledgement in 48 hours, much less an answer.  Getting sales info can take a week or so, getting technical questions answered is weeks unless I call which I don't like to do (and sometimes it's days for a return call).  They were originally upset when I had a remote dealer found here install some drivers and do some config for me (it was a couple hours work for which my dealer wanted to charge me $500 research time for plus the actual time to install.  That was the first time I became upset about the whole "I can't license Pro" issue) and I used to hear "we don't know what the other dealer did, so I don't know if we can support you" as an excuse for why something couldn't get done.

I understand it's somewhat of a Catch-22 for a dealer - you can't afford to pay someone to sit around waiting for support calls when he could be out wiring new jobs, but the answer to "when can you do x for me?" can't always be "in a few weeks", especially if it's just Composer work.  When I encounter an issue or want to try a new driver, I want to address it now, not in a month.  And when I have to wait a month to get charged hours at silly rates for Composer work I could easily do myself, it infuriates me ...

 

To minimize my frustration, I now use multiple dealers, which is probably less than ideal for all, and direct new hardware purchases to those that are responsive to other support needs.

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Do you not have a small Control4 dealer near you? They are probably going to provide faster response to issues and more likely to be enthusiastic about trying new driver / toys than a large dealer focused on paying the office staff.

I wouldn't even like to count up the amount of unpaid hours I do, but it's not just my job ... it's a hobby too.

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10 minutes ago, NextGenAV said:

Do you not have a small Control4 dealer near you? They are probably going to provide faster response to issues and more likely to be enthusiastic about trying new driver / toys than a large dealer focused on paying the office staff.

The others that are close enough to do physical install work for me bill at an even more ridiculous rate (same whether it's a truck roll or remote software work).    I presume most of those here that do remote Composer work charge less hourly than they would for an onsite visit because the rates I've been charged are far more reasonable that what local guys charge.

 

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1 hour ago, msgreenf said:

I don't think it's a matter of having _all_ really bad installers in the US, but I think there are more then in other regions because there are more installers in the US than anywhere else.  I would venture that as a % it's about the same.

But due to a larger install base in the US, you hear about problems  more.

Very true, good installers are rarely praised and bad ones and talked about often.

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18 minutes ago, NextGenAV said:

I cost about the same as a UK electrician, and cheaper than a plumber :)

My local dealer charges more like a lawyer than an electrician. :(

When I had to retro some LV wiring, my electrician did it at a fraction of the cost my dealer quoted.  My electrician had to install the C4 keypads and dimmers anyway.  And he can usually get to my house in a few days rather than a few weeks.

 

 

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Sound like the early 2000s in London when the AV gold rush was in full swing. I remember a project that cost £35k to program (Crestron), I designed the UI and I think the company charged £1000 per device resolution, which was about £5k .. only took me a week to do the whole thing, crazy days. The management were making us work crazy hours for average wages and charging a fortune for us to be there £750 + VAT wasn't an unusual charge for an engineers day rate. Then again the people we were installing for were the ultra high end client ... Candy & Candy work! 

Ah, the bad old days!

Oh ... and most of the companies went bust.

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2 hours ago, ILoveC4 said:

I remember walking through the "smart, connected home of the future" in Disneyland 15 or 20 years ago. Sponsored by Microsoft, with all this technology they were going to be bringing to market to do all these amazing things. None of those products are commercially available today (nor have they been in the past...at least not widely)

Uhhhhh, you realize the Dream Home WAS powered by Control4, right?

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1 hour ago, NextGenAV said:

Do you not have a small Control4 dealer near you? They are probably going to provide faster response to issues and more likely to be enthusiastic about trying new driver / toys than a large dealer focused on paying the office staff.

I wouldn't even like to count up the amount of unpaid hours I do, but it's not just my job ... it's a hobby too.

I completely agree with you. I was the only programmer for my company, and I loved going above and beyond. Every customer knew me by name, and they asked for me specifically. I enjoyed building personal relationships with my customers.

@jfh, I know it sucks to have to deal with this, but try finding a better local dealer. If your house has as much Control4 as I suspect it does, a good dealer is going to come out, meet you, and check out your system if you express you're interested in finding a new dealer.

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2 minutes ago, funnyfarm299 said:

@jfh, I know it sucks to have to deal with this, but try finding a better local dealer. If your house has as much Control4 as I suspect it does, a good dealer is going to come out, meet you, and check out your system if you express you're interested in finding a new dealer.

Thanks to these forums I have found another dealer in state, but it's just not practical for him to do onsite work because of travel time so I'll have him do design and Composer work for now.  I'd love it if he was closer, because he'd have all my work.

If any dealers within easy driving distance of North Denver/Boulder can do install/rack work at a reasonable rate and aren't afraid of a system a bit out of the ordinary or like to push the envelope, PM me. :)

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But, back to the thread topic - I sure hope C4 will finally address customer sat issues like this in 2017.   

Putting a system in place to license Pro and/or access to the dealer forums (even if read only) and training would be a great start. If I could buy a license to Pro for $500 to $1000, I'd sign up in a heartbeat and have no issue with paying for whatever the cost of dealer training is.

Come on C4 - help your overworked dealers out ... ;)

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12 minutes ago, therockhr said:

Did you not read the next paragraph of his post? He said exactly that. 

As a technical person myself it is impossible to read the second paragraph of anything. The first paragraph must contain all information as the rest is skipped ... unless there is a diagram or the first paragraph specifically references the second paragraph etc ...

Only non techs will read this part.

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Uhhhhh, you realize the Dream Home WAS powered by Control4, right?

I'm guessing you failed to read the rest of my post, where I said I went back later and part of it was powered by Control4?

Read the entire post.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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