therockhr Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 4 hours ago, NextGenAV said: I see the scenario mentioned above about a consumer having Pro and if they got into trouble, call in a dealer! 'I tried to take out my appendix doctor because I bought a scalpel online, but something went wrong ... help!' This is a ridiculous comparison. 4 hours ago, NextGenAV said: People don't seem to get it ... there would be NO CONTROL4 DEALERS. The reason we do this job is to make a living, if products and programming software is offered to the mass market then margins will collapse and it will not be worth our while installing and programming systems. Us end users on this site keep hearing that we are the minority and that most of their customers "just want it to work". If that is the case, what changes for those users? They are not suddenly going to try and do it themselves. 4 hours ago, NextGenAV said: Installing and programming Control4 isn't difficult, in fact it is easy ... but, it is easy because of time spent being able to quickly identify and resolve problems. I've seen new C4 installers pour over a problem for hours and I have looked at the projects and within a couple of minutes spotted and resolved the problem ... how? 100+ installations completed, not doing 5 days training! So it is no different than every other piece of software in the entire world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Ultimately, the reason Control4 does not offer ComposerPro to end users is that Control4 doesn't offer ComposerPro to end users. Policy is policy. If that ever *were* to change, I have no doubt that *many* (not all) users on this forum would have no problems maintaining their own systems. ComposerHE is where it's at for now, and fortunately, it lets you do pretty much everything except "install-type" functionality. I don't think it's necessary to argue back and forth for another 5 pages, as this same argument comes up about 2x a year, and always ends the same way. Have a good one. RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy.trochez Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Nobody has mentioned the fact that Control4 is the only company that offers a consumer version of their software. Those that have RTI, URC, Savant, etc., they can't do anything at all to their systems without their dealer. Control4 gives their customers 100% control over the automation of their system. But no, that's not enough. Everybody has to have it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prabeau Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I knew what I was buying into. Did my research and got what I wanted ! "If you buy a house at the end of a runway dont start bitching about noise" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thatguy230 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 12 minutes ago, prabeau said: I knew what I was buying into. Did my research and got what I wanted ! "If you buy a house at the end of a runway dont start bitching about noise" That's the new American way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 13 minutes ago, prabeau said: I knew what I was buying into. Did my research and got what I wanted ! "If you buy a house at the end of a runway dont start bitching about noise" There was a time the iPhone didn't have user built apps. Apple said users didn't need them that the web was enough. Should Apple have told all those users "you knew what you were buying into"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thatguy230 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 5 minutes ago, therockhr said: There was a time the iPhone didn't have user built apps. Apple said users didn't need them that the web was enough. Should Apple have told all those users "you knew what you were buying into"? Does Apple provide you with the tools to fix your own iPhone if the screen breaks? Or does that void the warranty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thatguy230 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 This thread will continue in a circle and absolutely nothing will change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prabeau Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 5 minutes ago, therockhr said: There was a time the iPhone didn't have user built apps. Apple said users didn't need them that the web was enough. Should Apple have told all those users "you knew what you were buying into"? When I bought my first iPhone i knew what I was buying and if the manufacturer decided to make changes that was his prerogative and my choice again to buy it or not. I bought a phone not a seat on a board of directors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, Thatguy230 said: Does Apple provide you with the tools to fix your own iPhone if the screen breaks? Or does that void the warranty? Why ask Apple? I can do it myself: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, therockhr said: Why ask Apple? I can do it myself: and as said above, void your warrenty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Just now, prabeau said: When I bought my first iPhone i knew what I was buying and if the manufacturer decided to make changes that was his prerogative and my choice again to buy it or not. I bought a phone not a seat on a board of directors. Without people speaking up and trying to improve a good product it becomes stale. If Apple did not listen to all those customers who bought an iPhone and said it would be nice to have apps we wouldn't have near the iPhone we have today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 6 minutes ago, msgreenf said: and as said above, void your warrenty If I could get Pro by just voiding the warranty I wouldnt hesitate to void it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfh Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 2 hours ago, eddy.trochez said: Control4 gives their customers 100% control over the automation of their system. But no, that's not enough. Everybody has to have it all. Technically, not true. "While" support is Pro only. As for "having it all", I PAID FOR THE SYSTEM. I should be able to change it. The only people that don't see a problem with the current rules are those that have a license to Pro. How would current dealers feel if you were prohibited from using Pro on your personal systems and had to have C4 support install new drivers, change bindings or rename devices? I'll bet you'd see the light pretty quickly. Restricting Pro is like buying a new car but saying you have to hire a professional driver to chauffeur you around because you can't be trusted to drive it. Ryan's post makes it pretty clear that there is no good defense to the status quo. The folks above his pay grade clearly don't care about anyone but dealers and are bound and determined to protect bad dealers at all costs. As for knowing what I bought into, my dealer flat out lied to me when explaining HE. Yes, probably on me for not doing more research, but I had no reason to believe what I was told wasn't true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 26 minutes ago, jfh said: Restricting Pro is like buying a new car but saying you have to hire a professional driver to chauffeur you around because you can't be trusted to drive it. No restricting Pro is like buying a new car but saying you have to hire a professional to maintain it, check it and fix it. You can drive it all you want (provided you have a valid drivers license, register it properly and have a valid insurance. all of which will cost you money yearly......wait what?) Yes I'm aware that with a car you could potentially do some work to it, arguably all of it. I'm just pointing out that the analogy is wrong. 8 hours ago, RyanE said: this same argument comes up about 2x a year More than that, with the same arguments that convince no-one in one direction or another. Just like people continue to complain about car salesmen, yet continue to buy cars. Lawyers making too much money yet continue to sue. An so on and so forth. ~shrugs~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prabeau Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 42 minutes ago, therockhr said: Without people speaking up and trying to improve a good product it becomes stale. If Apple did not listen to all those customers who bought an iPhone and said it would be nice to have apps we wouldn't have near the iPhone we have today. 8 hours ago, RyanE said: Ultimately, the reason Control4 does not offer ComposerPro to end users is that Control4 doesn't offer ComposerPro to end users. Policy is policy. If that ever *were* to change, I have no doubt that *many* (not all) users on this forum would have no problems maintaining their own systems. ComposerHE is where it's at for now, and fortunately, it lets you do pretty much everything except "install-type" functionality. I don't think it's necessary to argue back and forth for another 5 pages, as this same argument comes up about 2x a year, and always ends the same way. Have a good one. RyanE There is your answer anything else is just whining ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 35 minutes ago, jfh said: Ryan's post makes it pretty clear that there is no good defense to the status quo. The folks above his pay grade clearly don't care about anyone but dealers and are bound and determined to protect bad dealers at all costs. This is a perfect example of the nonsense in this whole thread. You twist a few words into whatever you feel fits your needs - however far-fetched the presumption of this statement is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 1 minute ago, prabeau said: If Apple did not listen to all those customers who bought an iPhone and said it would be nice to have apps we wouldn't have near the iPhone we have today Pure nonsense. Apple didn't 'listen' to anyone creating the iPhone. They took something that was there already and created a smoother way of doing it, but Apple didn't invent the smartphone -nor apps- by a long shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thatguy230 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 54 minutes ago, therockhr said: Why ask Apple? I can do it myself: Yea but the warranty is now void Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 7 minutes ago, Cyknight said: Pure nonsense. Apple didn't 'listen' to anyone creating the iPhone. They took something that was there already and created a smoother way of doing it, but Apple didn't invent the smartphone -nor apps- by a long shot. That's not the point. The point is that they listened to the customers who said just having the web was not enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfh Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 17 minutes ago, Cyknight said: No restricting Pro is like buying a new car but saying you have to hire a professional to maintain it, check it and fix it. You can drive it all you want (provided you have a valid drivers license, register it properly and have a valid insurance. all of which will cost you money yearly......wait what?) Yes I'm aware that with a car you could potentially do some work to it, arguably all of it. I'm just pointing out that the analogy is wrong. Ok. Then it's like buying a car for $30k and being told you can't swap out the built in $100 radio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 15 minutes ago, prabeau said: There is your answer anything else is just whining ! You have really provided some solid content to this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfh Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 18 minutes ago, Cyknight said: This is a perfect example of the nonsense in this whole thread. You twist a few words into whatever you feel fits your needs - however far-fetched the presumption of this statement is. It's not far fetched at all. Actions speak louder than words. Nothing C4 has done contradict my statement at all. There is absolutely no evidence that they care about the issues and concerns of their actual customers. We are just annoyances needed to support the dealers. If there was a valid, logical reason as to why the only people that can have access to Pro are those that commit to sell $x thousands of high margin hardware a year then C4 would have found a way to make that known. If they cared about a small subset of customers that would likely drive their business with referrals more than most dealers could ever do, there would be a solution. That the only (unofficial) statement we have is essentially "that's the way it is" simply proves my point - when you can't defend a poor model just deflect or redirect the conversation or tell those with concerns that they just don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 1 minute ago, jfh said: when you can't defend a poor model just deflect or redirect the conversation or tell those with concerns that they just don't understand. you actually haven't gotten 1 statement from Control4...so no one else but them can answer this....No one else can. Everything in this thread is pointless. Call C4 corp office, write them email, snailmail, etc. Contact them. They can make the change, not one person on this site can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMHarman Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Restricting Pro is like buying a new car but saying you have to hire a professional driver to chauffeur you around because you can't be trusted to drive it. Is it. I own this car. I want to mess with the engine management system, and the can bus and add devices to the can bus at will. But if the engine blows up or the audio system stops working that remains the dealer / mfr problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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