Jump to content
C4 Forums | Control4

2017 Thoughts for Control4


mic2010

Recommended Posts

Just throwing it out there.. not that saying it will change anything other than making me feel better...

Maybe let a dealer sell a C4 Personal Pro license to a customer that is tied to their equipment only and if the user does mess it up and/or need help they still have to fall back to calling that dealer and paying them to fix the issues they can't solve themselves or with help from other users as well for any license renewals.

I don't see the do it yourself people taking away that much business from dealers.. I would say it has a good chance of increasing there business as more people see C4 and what it can do but know they can't do it themselves. I have to say i think C4 would see more sales and interest if more people could be involved and evolve the system and show it off.

I have my C4 installation scheduled for the 24th of this month in my new house but have decided that I will just be using it for lighting, deadbolt, garage, thermostat, camera, and security only and most likely won't have them do anything with media integration (TV, Xbox One, FireTV, Kodi, Receiver, ect.) due to the fact I change things so much that there is a good chance the stuff they integrate would be swapped out shortly anyway and I am not going to pay to have someone come add devices again or upgrade things to maintain functionality.

It just sounds wrong to me that my thought process has come to that but that is the corner C4 has put me in.. I was super excited and learning all i could scouring the internet and watching this forum for months as my interest dropped drastically as I saw how bad it was going to be trying to manage my own system due to having to involve others at a cost even for simple things such as adding devices!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Replies 490
  • Created
  • Last Reply
4 minutes ago, DIEHARD said:

I have my C4 installation scheduled for the 24th of this month in my new house but have decided that I will just be using it for lighting, deadbolt, garage, thermostat, camera, and security only and most likely won't have them do anything with media integration (TV, Xbox One, FireTV, Kodi, Receiver, ect.) due to the fact I change things so much that there is a good chance the stuff they integrate would be swapped out shortly anyway and I am not going to pay to have someone come add devices again or upgrade things to maintain functionality.

It just sounds wrong to me that my thought process has come to that but that is the corner C4 has put me in.. I was super excited and learning all i could scouring the internet and watching this forum for months as my interest dropped drastically as I saw how bad it was going to be trying to manage my own system due to having to involve others at a cost even for simple things such as adding devices!

 

If it wasn't for media integration I would for sure not have Control4. There are other options for just home automation out there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

this forum is around ~300 active users of over a few million installed homes, not significant 

The November 2016 investor presentation. Says 250,000 homes installed.

So 300/250000*100=0.12%

Taking a bell curve this 300 are the outliers that want pro.

There are 300 at the other end that say pro, huh. I call someone.

Home satisfies the quartile that wants more control. Not all control.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes but what got me in bed with C4 was the fact a C4 package came with my house and looked to do it all and could have if i could afford to have someone on call to add and change things as i needed.

At this point if it had not already been included I would have gone a different way for the smart home features as well.

I just got super excited and jumped the gun on C4 without knowing the limits it would put me under.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right.  Which makes C4's paranoia about not letting a few hundred license Pro even more petty.  A few hundred non-dealers with a Pro license would somehow be a threat to the business model?

Not really. Let's compare this 300 against the 3688 dealers at 12/15. It's 5123 now but that includes all pakedge dealers that may not all do C4.

So now you are releasing into the wild 8% more Pro users.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You guys are right that this convo happens every so often and it will probably not change anytime soon. I'll say this; even though I really like my system and it works well for me, I have ZERO loyalty to Control4 and will be glad the day I can take it out and put something else in. I have also not recommended it to friends even though they liked it. The minute I tell them they have to pay someone every time they add a device or change a TV they are out on it. Same for people I work with, all engineers/developers with money to spend. They will not install a system they can't have control over.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/1/2017 at 10:12 PM, forum said:

Many people I have talked to that can easily afford Control4 have said they avoid it because of the Dealer model.

They don't like the fact that they can't just have anyone come over and help them work on their stuff. It isn't a "free market" to them.

Yes I know exactly how they feel. One time I had a guy I "did some work with" come over to help me with my bathroom remodel. Even though he didnt work for a bathroom company he said he could do it. After the first shower I found out why. Had a leak behind the drywall at the shower head and the cold water mixer. Thats not the best part. Instead of getting the right parts he had "rigged" the drain and cut more then 70% of the two joists under the tub. The drywall in the garage fell onto the car as did all the water. Had to cut out the drywall ceiling of the basement and sister in two new joists. But boy am I glad I had just anyone that said they could do it come over. Only costs me more than my whole C4 system to fix that little screw up, and I have quite the extensive system...........

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, adamt said:

Yes I know exactly how they feel. One time I had a guy I "did some work with" come over to help me with my bathroom remodel. Even though he didnt work for a bathroom company he said he could do it. After the first shower I found out why. Had a leak behind the drywall at the shower head and the cold water mixer. Thats not the best part. Instead of getting the right parts he had "rigged" the drain and cut more then 70% of the two joists under the tub. The drywall in the garage fell onto the car as did all the water. Had to cut out the drywall ceiling of the basement and sister in two new joists. But boy am I glad I had just anyone that said they could do it come over. Only costs me more than my whole C4 system to fix that little screw up, and I have quite the extensive system...........

a real "pro"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We can only assume Control4 corporate knows more than we do on market share and other factors. If they're keeping it dealer only to save the dealers, but lost to the Apple, Comcast, Google's out there it won't matter if they're out of business.

There are lots of new players getting into this space, not all direct competitors, but it will be interesting to see where things go.

14.1 m homes in US with >150k income.

1.4% current penetration.

I think their view is that there is room for the new players and Control4 and IMHO the new stuff often being as irritating as he'll to get joined up will cause more to seek an expert.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, adamt said:

Yes I know exactly how they feel. One time I had a guy I "did some work with" come over to help me with my bathroom remodel. Even though he didnt work for a bathroom company he said he could do it. After the first shower I found out why. Had a leak behind the drywall at the shower head and the cold water mixer. Thats not the best part. Instead of getting the right parts he had "rigged" the drain and cut more then 70% of the two joists under the tub. The drywall in the garage fell onto the car as did all the water. Had to cut out the drywall ceiling of the basement and sister in two new joists. But boy am I glad I had just anyone that said they could do it come over. Only costs me more than my whole C4 system to fix that little screw up, and I have quite the extensive system...........

But that was your risk and choice to use the person you did... not the person who made the tub. Besides for them you now still have to use the "dealer" to fix the issue. They lost nothing.

Your one bad choice vs the hundreds of good ones that could come from a more open system doesn't feel valid as an example but is still a great example as it shows you had the ability and made your own choice! Even if it was the wrong one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, adamt said:

Yes I know exactly how they feel. One time I had a guy I "did some work with" come over to help me with my bathroom remodel. Even though he didnt work for a bathroom company he said he could do it. After the first shower I found out why. Had a leak behind the drywall at the shower head and the cold water mixer. Thats not the best part. Instead of getting the right parts he had "rigged" the drain and cut more then 70% of the two joists under the tub. The drywall in the garage fell onto the car as did all the water. Had to cut out the drywall ceiling of the basement and sister in two new joists. But boy am I glad I had just anyone that said they could do it come over. Only costs me more than my whole C4 system to fix that little screw up, and I have quite the extensive system...........

I love these ridiculous straw man examples you guys throw out there. The amount of water you guys carry for this company is unreal.

Better example would be a plumber who wants to install a water heater in his house but the company who makes the water heater says he has to be a dealer of that company to be able to install it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

So...create this whole setup, and offer it only to those one here? Again you simple cannot do that.

Or create this to support potentially thousands and thousands of people, flooding their infrastructure with new, untrained people? Defeating the whole point of 'a few'

 

No, you are missing the point.  I do not advocate opening up Pro to anyone (or limiting it to only those here).   Offer it like HE - to anyone that wants it - but require that anyone who wants to license Pro - presumably on an annual basis - complete the same training dealers are required to take.    No flooding their infrastructure with untrained people, but adding those certified as trained by Control4.  This certainly doesn't flood the infracture with untrained people, but potentially enhances support options by adding trained personnel to the existing resource base.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

No, you are missing the point.  I do not advocate opening up Pro to anyone (or limiting it to only those here).   Offer it like HE - to anyone that wants it - but require that anyone who wants to license Pro - presumably on an annual basis - complete the same training dealers are required to take.    No flooding their infrastructure with untrained people, but adding those certified as trained by Control4.  This certainly doesn't flood the infracture with untrained people, but potentially enhances support options by adding trained personnel to the existing resource base.

And would you licence it with a 5k training you have to fly to SLC and out yourself in a hotel and feed and water yourself for. Say another $1500.

And decide this is a good use of 5 vacation days (if you are salaried), or a better use of your time than your work.

So upfront would you pay $6500 so you could licence pro and make bindings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, jfh said:

 

No, you are missing the point.  I do not advocate opening up Pro to anyone (or limiting it to only those here).   Offer it like HE - to anyone that wants it - but require that anyone who wants to license Pro - presumably on an annual basis - complete the same training dealers are required to take.    No flooding their infrastructure with untrained people, but adding those certified as trained by Control4.  This certainly doesn't flood the infracture with untrained people, but potentially enhances support options by adding trained personnel to the existing resource base.

I would be fine taking a class if it meant i could have control of my own system.

They would have to bundle the training with the cost of the license however and not make it (much if any) more than the current annual fee.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, jfh said:

 

No, you are missing the point.  I do not advocate opening up Pro to anyone (or limiting it to only those here).   Offer it like HE - to anyone that wants it - but require that anyone who wants to license Pro - presumably on an annual basis - complete the same training dealers are required to take.    No flooding their infrastructure with untrained people, but adding those certified as trained by Control4.  This certainly doesn't flood the infracture with untrained people, but potentially enhances support options by adding trained personnel to the existing resource base.

 

Right! Except that you have no understanding of the current dealer training requirements, and you still miss the point that you DO in this scenario potentially open it up to EVERYONE meaning you MUST ensure you can support it. Not to mention the changes it would require to licensing to not have these people become 'dealers' themselves -= or is that what you propose they do?

 

More importantly how many times do I need to REPEAT myself to make it clear this is just a CIRCLE argument that leads NOWHERE other than back unto itself by REPEATING itself over and over again?

 

Is it really unclear that THAT is my real point here?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, DIEHARD said:

I would be fine taking a class if it meant i could have control of my own system.

They would have to bundle the training with the cost of the license however and not make it (much if any) more than the current annual fee.

Right, see SMHarman's post - that's not realistic AT ALL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, SMHarman said:

And would you licence it with a 5k training you have to fly to SLC and out yourself in a hotel and feed and water yourself for. Say another $1500.

So upfront would you pay $6500 so you could licence pro and make bindings.

 

I would, yes.  It annoys me that much.  Even if I never "recovered" that in time saved that I would otherwise pay a dealer for.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A few points, which really don't change the argument, but shed a *small* amount of light:

* Control4 created HE after listening to end users.  Control4 does listen to end users, and does monitor this forum.  I'm not saying this will cause Control4 to offer ComposerPro, but Control4 does provide more than other companies in this regard, because of this type of conversation.  I'm not opposed to the conversation, except that they tend to get rancorous after a while.

* Dealers are Control4's life-blood.  You may or may not like Control4's dealer model, but dealers are what makes Control4 go.  Granting a 'blanket' fully open ComposerPro ability to end users (with the ability to change *any* Control4 system, not just your own) is likely to *never* happen.  I also don't expect Control4 would sell Control4 hardware outside the dealer model, which would be the next thing end users would ask for...

* The 'pro-sumer' market for Control4 is quite small.  Engineering to lock ComposerPro down to a single system (which would include an entirely new authentication / licensing model, and considerable changes to disallow within the app) IMHO is likely cost-prohibitive, and requiring training would likely be cost-prohibitive for the end users.  You're not likely to pay $5k to get ComposerPro access.

Argue all you want, I'm sure I'm an idiot who knows nothing.

:)

RyanE

P.S.  I'm not speaking officially for Control4 at all in this thread (or most others, for that matter).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

Right! Except that you have no understanding of the current dealer training requirements, and you still miss the point that you DO in this scenario potentially open it up to EVERYONE meaning you MUST ensure you can support it. Not to mention the changes it would require to licensing to not have these people become 'dealers' themselves -= or is that what you propose they do?

 

You are correct - I do not know the current dealer training requirements.  That is one of the questions I have pushed to C4 without a response.

The current licensing system ties licensees to a dealer.  There would be no changes required if C4 created a fake dealer called "Control4 certified licensees" or whatever to handle those that weren't employed by a current dealer.  Access to the forums and phone support is based on dealer number.  It would be simple to manage access to anything else just by filtering on that dealer number.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, jfh said:

The current licensing system ties licensees to a dealer.  There would be no changes required if C4 created a fake dealer called "Control4 certified licensees" or whatever to handle those that weren't employed by a current dealer.  Access to the forums and phone support is based on dealer number.  It would be simple to manage access to anything else just by filtering on that dealer number.

you are talking about things of which you have no knowledge - go back to the original argument.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

7 minutes ago, RyanE said:

A few points, which really don't change the argument, but shed a *small* amount of light:

* Control4 created HE after listening to end users.  Control4 does listen to end users, and does monitor this forum.  I'm not saying this will cause Control4 to offer ComposerPro, but Control4 does provide more than other companies in this regard, because of this type of conversation.  I'm not opposed to the conversation, except that they tend to get rancorous after a while.

* Dealers are Control4's life-blood.  You may or may not like Control4's dealer model, but dealers are what makes Control4 go.  Granting a 'blanket' fully open ComposerPro ability to end users (with the ability to change *any* Control4 system, not just your own) is likely to *never* happen.  I also don't expect Control4 would sell Control4 hardware outside the dealer model, which would be the next thing end users would ask for...

* The 'pro-sumer' market for Control4 is quite small.  Engineering to lock ComposerPro down to a single system (which would include an entirely new authentication / licensing model, and considerable changes to disallow within the app) IMHO is likely cost-prohibitive, and requiring training would likely be cost-prohibitive for the end users.  You're not likely to pay $5k to get ComposerPro access.

Argue all you want, I'm sure I'm an idiot who knows nothing.

:)

RyanE

P.S.  I'm not speaking officially for Control4 at all in this thread (or most others, for that matter).

Thank you for this post. I understand all these reasons. I would never advocate for a "blanket" Composer license or buying hardware from an unauthorized dealer. I do think eventually that if Control4 wants to get this product into more homes it will have to start expanding who can do what with the system. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, RyanE said:

A few points, which really don't change the argument, but shed a *small* amount of light:

* Control4 created HE after listening to end users.  Control4 does listen to end users, and does monitor this forum.  I'm not saying this will cause Control4 to offer ComposerPro, but Control4 does provide more than other companies in this regard, because of this type of conversation.  I'm not opposed to the conversation, except that they tend to get rancorous after a while.

* The 'pro-sumer' market for Control4 is quite small.  Engineering to lock ComposerPro down to a single system (which would include an entirely new authentication / licensing model, and considerable changes to disallow within the app) IMHO is likely cost-prohibitive, and requiring training would likely be cost-prohibitive for the end users.  You're not likely to pay $5k to get ComposerPro access.

 

Agreed, for the most point.  Except that locking down Pro to a list of particular controller MAC addresses (to provide customers access to their own systems but no others) doesn't (or shouldn't) require extensive changes.   If C4 wants to limit access in this way, I'm sure a solution could be found quickly.  

My solution doesn't require any change other than setting up a new dealer entry in the system.  No coding changes required.  Obviously there's an additional admin cost to manage the "employees" of this new "dealer", but presumably one that would be covered with the new license revenue.

What C4 and a lot of the dealers don't seem to grasp is that licensing Pro is far more likely to help dealers in the long run than hurt them.  Even if you take my experience and only multiply it by 1000 or 100, that's an incredible loss to C4s bottom line.

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, jfh said:

You are correct - I do not know the current dealer training requirements.  That is one of the questions I have pushed to C4 without a response.

Dealers are required to maintain at least one employee who has graduated Control4's 4-day installer training (and yes, there are installers who fail the training) in order to be allowed to sell Control4 product.  Dealers usually send more than one employee for training, as the training is quite good, and likely makes them a more valuable employee.

Becoming a Control4 dealer is a difficult task, there are many requirements to become a dealer (besides the training requirement), and Control4 spends a lot of time and money to build and protect the dealer channel.

RyanE

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.