2017 Thoughts for Control4

[DIEHARD]

17 minutes ago, Thatguy230 said:

So you didn't do your homework and that's Control4's fault? Please explain 

I didn't say anything about fault.. I said I am getting it because it came with my new house. I would have not even known about C4 at all if it where not a package deal they where including with my new home build. (other than driving past there building all the time but did not know what they did)

After doing my homework however I realized it was just a tactic to trap you into their system and not something to get over excited about. I can use it for things that should never change but it is not worth it for me to use it beyond that.

[AdamT]

9 minutes ago, Thatguy230 said:

Should've called your homeowners insurance. 

Yea they would have loved the part where I said......we dont need no stinking permits, Im using people I know in the trades........yea......

 

[cdepaola]

1 hour ago, adamt said:

Because once a dealer or installer has done their job, and the system works it should be done! If you tinker with it, via programming or wiring or moving stuff you SHOULD get charged more. I dont know anything about cars but after it leaves the shop I dont go under the hood and start moving wires or adding turbos to it. Thats not for me. See most of us that troubleshoot for a living know why your shouldnt touch it, but you still do. 

Everyone I know that does troubleshooting for a living were the biggest offenders when they were kids/teenagers/young adults. Its like my friends that are cops, guess what. Most of them caused all kinds of trouble when they were kids.  Not a single one of them was an upstanding law abiding citizen.

Maybe you should add a turbo... It makes your car way more fun and you learn alot about how things in your car work, which can be very useful later. 

[eddy.trochez]

.

[prabeau]

29 minutes ago, cdepaola said:

Everyone I know that does troubleshooting for a living were the biggest offenders when they were kids/teenagers/young adults. Its like my friends that are cops, guess what. Most of them caused all kinds of trouble when they were kids.  Not a single one of them was an upstanding law abiding citizen.

Maybe you should add a turbo... It makes your car way more fun and you learn alot about how things in your car work, which can be very useful later. 

I added Poslestar performance package to my Volvo

Now here's a thought, seing that its all software upgrade ( that I paid for ) why is it that I can't access this software and adjust a few things ? 

[jfh]

I just finished a very nice conversation with someone from C4 corporate that reached out to me after reading comments here.

It is clear that there are corporate lurkers here that are interested in the end user and how best to strike a balance between the needs of the dealers and those of those non-dealers who have an interest in exercising control over their systems (and presumably the technical ability to do so).    I won't share any specifics other than to say that I'm confident my concerns (and those of many others) have not only been heard, but are clearly understood.  I suspect there are some little things that can be done that will move the ball a long way and that it won't take years to see improvements that will address some of the issues.

It does appear the decision to dedicate resource to this is relatively recent, but I see it as a major step in the right direction.  I'm going to give C4 the benefit of the doubt for now and see what happens.   It's clear that they don't see this as an issue that only bothers a bunch of DIY fanatics, but understand that changes could be beneficial to dealers and the growth of C4. 

Perhaps we can revisit the topic in 6 months and actually see some change in the current status quo.

 

To those lurking from C4, thanks for paying attention even though most of us don't realize you are here.

[cdepaola]

12 minutes ago, prabeau said:

I added Poslestar performance package to my Volvo

Now here's a thought, seing that its all software upgrade ( that I paid for ) why is it that I can't access this software and adjust a few things ? 

You can if your willing to pay.... Generally anything automotive is available, it may just cost you as much as your car. 

There are something locked down, heck there was/is a huge lawsuit against Harvester I believe for locking down some of their software that requires all maintenance to be completed by a dealer.  The farmers are ticked....

[GT Slider]

This thread is about as dumb as it gets.  All of these people complaining that they can't get under the hood of their Control4 systems is beyond out there! 

JFH - You said that your wife was upset because she couldn't get light switch names changes quick enough.  FIND ANOTHER DEALER!!  I could change those names in Composer Express while I'm driving (but I don't do that while I'm driving).  It's absolutely ridiculous to think that some of the post throughout this forum actually have people that were told to wait days, if not weeks, for simple changes and/or additional upgrades.  FIND ANOTHER DEALER! 

You all get so upset because you want Composer Pro, but are perfectly content with the restrictions in technology that you live with every single day.  Can you modify the source code on a Windows PC?  Nope, you can't.  People have been bitching about Microsoft releasing their source code for years, never gonna happen.  Can you modify the computer chip on your new car, that is under warranty?  Probably not without voiding your warranty.  Try jailbreaking your phone and it stops working, then go into the Apple Store and demand that they repair since it is one of the most expensive phones on the market!  This goes to the point of messing with your system, then if a dealer has to fix your screw up, actually charging more than it should have been.  Show of hands, how many home owners have tried their own troubleshooting (i.e. - unplug, plug back in, maybe even incorrectly) and contact the dealer saying it "just don't work".  Only to have the dealer call out the customer because the controller HDMI Out was supposed to be in HDMI In 3 on the TV.  Holy sh*t, that HDMI cable jumped from 3 to 4 all by itself . . . and low and behold customer says, "well I may have tried disconnecting the HDMI and reconnect to see if that would fix my problem, I guess I plugged it in the wrong spot".  I know, I know, it's sound like a bit of exaggeration, but there are plenty of instances like this that we've been through. 

Bottom line is that Control4 is an extremely stable, and fully functioning, platform when installed by people that actually know what they are doing.  Unfortunately, some people have had bad experiences with some dealers.  Why, I don't know.  It could be lack of experience, period.  But it seems like it puts a lot of targets on everyone's back on the forum, people that are truly worth their salt.  With the right dealer, and your own copy of Composer HE, you should have a sound relationship that is not going to kill your checking account.  Just a thought.

[Hisma]

35 minutes ago, GT Slider said:

This thread is about as dumb as it gets.  All of these people complaining that they can't get under the hood of their Control4 systems is beyond out there! 

JFH - You said that your wife was upset because she couldn't get light switch names changes quick enough.  FIND ANOTHER DEALER!!  I could change those names in Composer Express while I'm driving (but I don't do that while I'm driving).  It's absolutely ridiculous to think that some of the post throughout this forum actually have people that were told to wait days, if not weeks, for simple changes and/or additional upgrades.  FIND ANOTHER DEALER! 

You all get so upset because you want Composer Pro, but are perfectly content with the restrictions in technology that you live with every single day.  Can you modify the source code on a Windows PC?  Nope, you can't.  People have been bitching about Microsoft releasing their source code for years, never gonna happen.  Can you modify the computer chip on your new car, that is under warranty?  Probably not without voiding your warranty.  Try jailbreaking your phone and it stops working, then go into the Apple Store and demand that they repair since it is one of the most expensive phones on the market!  This goes to the point of messing with your system, then if a dealer has to fix your screw up, actually charging more than it should have been.  Show of hands, how many home owners have tried their own troubleshooting (i.e. - unplug, plug back in, maybe even incorrectly) and contact the dealer saying it "just don't work".  Only to have the dealer call out the customer because the controller HDMI Out was supposed to be in HDMI In 3 on the TV.  Holy sh*t, that HDMI cable jumped from 3 to 4 all by itself . . . and low and behold customer says, "well I may have tried disconnecting the HDMI and reconnect to see if that would fix my problem, I guess I plugged it in the wrong spot".  I know, I know, it's sound like a bit of exaggeration, but there are plenty of instances like this that we've been through. 

Bottom line is that Control4 is an extremely stable, and fully functioning, platform when installed by people that actually know what they are doing.  Unfortunately, some people have had bad experiences with some dealers.  Why, I don't know.  It could be lack of experience, period.  But it seems like it puts a lot of targets on everyone's back on the forum, people that are truly worth their salt.  With the right dealer, and your own copy of Composer HE, you should have a sound relationship that is not going to kill your checking account.  Just a thought.

how about the fact that people actually enjoy building these sort of systems themselves?  instead of needing a dealer to constantly hold our hands, let us take it upon ourselves.  You talk about how complicated and delicate these systems are, but then there is a thriving community of people that have implemented openhab, which literally requires you to be competent in java to implement, and is likely much more complicated to implement than c4.  And it's free and open source.  My point isn't that c4 should be free, but that there is a market ripe for a middle ground solution, that doesn't require a java developer to implement, but still can be fully installed by a competent diyer.  There are already small players that are looking to exploit that niche, as I already described earlier, but affordable whole home automation is still a relatively new concept, so established companies like c4 and creston haven't had much of a need to adapt.  but eventually they will be forced to.  

[thegreatheed]

Very... few... people actually enjoy building these sorts of systems themselves. I know this forum is an echo chamber for that exact group, but it's still true. The number of customers I've seen who've even expressed interest in Composer HE is 1. Every single other one prefers that we do it for them. 

There's several other DIY solutions if your primary goal is to HAVE FUN. That is not Control4's primary goal or purpose. That is not what is driving Control4's growth and success in the market.

[jfh]

 

I have since found a remote dealer far more responsive.   My point is I shouldn't have to dealer shop for trivial stuff.

Quote

You all get so upset because you want Composer Pro, but are perfectly content with the restrictions in technology that you live with every single day. 

Says someone with access to Composer Pro and Express.   Walk in my shoes and see how you feel after a few months.

Quote

With the right dealer, and your own copy of Composer HE, you should have a sound relationship that is not going to kill your checking account.  Just a thought.

Finding the "right" dealer, especially after the majority of your system is installed isn't anywhere as easy as you make it sound.  Every dealer local enough to me seemed like a worse option than I already had.  If @Cyknight or some of the others here were local to me, they'd be my dealer of record in a heartbeat.

[AdamT]

2 hours ago, cdepaola said:

Everyone I know that does troubleshooting for a living were the biggest offenders when they were kids/teenagers/young adults. Its like my friends that are cops, guess what. Most of them caused all kinds of trouble when they were kids.  Not a single one of them was an upstanding law abiding citizen.

Wow. I dont know where you live but Husbands and kids are the worst offenders by me, or usually the husband "knows a guy" that came by and looked at it.

 

In some of my commercial buildings the maint staff is the worst offender. A couple places (more on the security side) got so bad we put the panel door sensor on and a pinhole cam and get photos of them to prove it.

[Elvis]

1 hour ago, jfh said:

Finding the "right" dealer, especially after the majority of your system is installed isn't anywhere as easy as you make it sound.  Every dealer local enough to me seemed like a worse option than I already had.

Amen, brother. If it weren't for @StroTek LLC, @AK1 and @Matt Lowe and all the excellent advice I've gotten here, I would have sold it all. In my case, though, it's my own fault. (long story) But I know for a fact, if you don't happen to have someone like the dealers on this forum in your town, it can be a battle.

I, too, have had Control4 corporate reach out to me and if that hadn't happened I'd be out of this game.

[forum]

My wife is actually very happy with out IFTTT Alexa, Google Home, Lutron Caseta, Sonos, Chromecast,  Harmony Hub, Ecobee3, August Frankenstein Smart Home.

It's very reliable, no dealer dependence, the costs are low, and performance is fantastic. It accomplishes everything we need and can be programmed by my wife or myself for no additional costs. Remote access is free, no yearly subscription.

My wife is okay using multiple apps. But she uses Alexa and Google Home 95% of the time to accomplish the tasks.

 

"Hey Google, when is my next appointment?"  "your next appointment is in 15 minutes, and traffic is congested" "Oh Crap. Alexa turn off the house!"

[Tokead]

I knew what I was buying into.

Did my research and got what I wanted ! 

 

"If you buy a house at the end of a runway dont start bitching about noise"  

 

 

 

I concur with your last statement. However, in my field I know several examples of people buying at the end of a runway (700') and bitching and wanting change.

Change is okay if the rationale is sound and supported.

Personally, I believe the rationale for Pro to be offered to consumers is sound. Like working on my own brakes, it comes with risks, and based on my comfort I decide what's worth more, my car or the mechanic's bill.

However, it's not currently supported by those in control, so I'll stick with HE, a dealer who doesn't screw me over like some on here seem to be ($50 a light or $350 an AVR??), access via this forum to dealers and users who can provide great advise and support, and hope that C4 continues to evolve and improve.

Frankly, I want Pro to have access to Detective Suite, so I can see my programming, and the ability to add simple things like a switch or SDDP device.

As Ryan says, this issue will come up again and again with the same result.

Toke

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[koxkp]

20 hours ago, DIEHARD said:

I have my C4 installation scheduled for the 24th of this month in my new house but have decided that I will just be using it for lighting, deadbolt, garage, thermostat, camera, and security only and most likely won't have them do anything with media integration (TV, Xbox One, FireTV, Kodi, Receiver, ect.) due to the fact I change things so much that there is a good chance the stuff they integrate would be swapped out shortly anyway and I am not going to pay to have someone come add devices again or upgrade things to maintain functionality.

Just my two cents as a user, but you're missing out on a lot if you don't integrate any media into the system at all. Why not get everything the way you want it initially and then worry about upgrades later? Things like the Kodi driver are not box dependent so if you get a new box with the same IP for example "it just works".

Media is kind of the fun part of control4 and device upgrades seem like they should generally not be that painful if you have a decent remote dealer on here.

[bdonohoe]

I just finished a very nice conversation with someone from C4 corporate that reached out to me after reading comments here.

It is clear that there are corporate lurkers here that are interested in the end user and how best to strike a balance between the needs of the dealers and those of those non-dealers who have an interest in exercising control over their systems (and presumably the technical ability to do so).    I won't share any specifics other than to say that I'm confident my concerns (and those of many others) have not only been heard, but are clearly understood.

I had a conversation like that with C4 corporate after making a lot of noise. I came away with the impression they had updates in the works that would directly address these concerns. In fact, I was even given an approximate date by which progress was to be made visible.

Unfortunately, that date was last year's CES. Several updates later and not a peep from C4 on the subject. And the person I spoke to won't respond to further inquiry.

I totally get that software schedules and priorities change, so I'm not mad about that. I just don't like the practice of whispering promises to people to placate them. It just fans the flames the dealer / owner divide.

[David Paxton]

The point you all seem to be missing is a control4 system is only as good as the person who programmed it.

lets say 10% of this forums users are having issues with their system caused by poor programming and they start moaning and bitching on this and other forums.

then a prospective control4 customer starts doing some research on a system he is interested in and finds lots of negative info from users.

 

control4 employee this dealer model not to rip of customers or protect dealers, but instead to control the quality of the user experience. control4 is not a harmony remote that means you cant turn on a tv when things go sour, these systems go sideways your whole house is offline.

[msgreenf]

2 minutes ago, David Paxton said:

The point you all seem to be missing is a control4 system is only as good as the person who programmed it.

lets say 10% of this forums users are having issues with their system caused by poor programming and they start moaning and bitching on this and other forums.

then a prospective control4 customer starts doing some research on a system he is interested in and finds lots of negative info from users.

 

control4 employee this dealer model not to rip of customers or protect dealers, but instead to control the quality of the user experience. control4 is not a harmony remote that means you cant turn on a tv when things go sour, these systems go sideways your whole house is offline.

All computers are only as smart as the people who programmed them

[David Paxton]

1 minute ago, msgreenf said:

All computers are only as smart as the people who programmed them

yes , hence the reason it is done by pro's.

 

I have been to a few "takeover jobs" and been shocked at some of the programming done by other dealers.

I remember doing my dealer tech 2 training and thinking wow I didn't know that, after previously considering myself a knowledgeable tech.

 

The thought of a untrained person messing around with composer is a worrying one , even something as simple as setting up a zigbee mesh can cause all kinds of hell and totally destroy the user experience if not deployed correctly 

[jfh]

15 minutes ago, David Paxton said:

The point you all seem to be missing is a control4 system is only as good as the person who programmed it.

lets say 10% of this forums users are having issues with their system caused by poor programming and they start moaning and bitching on this and other forums.

then a prospective control4 customer starts doing some research on a system he is interested in and finds lots of negative info from users.

 

control4 employee this dealer model not to rip of customers or protect dealers, but instead to control the quality of the user experience. control4 is not a harmony remote that means you cant turn on a tv when things go sour, these systems go sideways your whole house is offline.

 

I'm sorry, but you are assuming just because someone has access to Pro means they are a good programmer and/or that the simple virtue of being a dealer assures quality of the user experience.   Your argument is a propagandized version of the "only dealers can do it right" fallacy.

 

The entire responsibility for end user satisfaction of the programming belongs at the feet of the programmer whether that be the dealer or the homeowner.

[Simplyauto1]

On 1/4/2017 at 11:37 AM, JimG said:

 

Frankly, I think if Control4 fails to change their business model and give greater "control" to their customers we WILL see the Amazon/Google's of the world either buy them out or make them irrelevant.

 

Control4 will not change their business model.  If they did, it would be the beginning of the end.  Meaning, the top 20% of the dealer base would be gone.  The real players in our industry that aren't here and gone in two years stay in business for a number of reasons.  One of them being, we support protected lines.  Protected from the internet and in this case, the end user.  If or when that changes, I, we  move on.  Most of us are actually in the industry to make a living, provide for our families and take care of our employees.

I too have a handful of clients that know enough to be dangerous but that doesn't mean they deserve to have Pro.  Regardless of whether they spent 10K or 350K.  Im of the opinion that you have to pay to play.  If you want a properly designed and installed system, it costs money, usually a good amount.  C4, Crestron, costs money to maintain.  If that wasn't explained to you as a client in the onset, then unfortunately you picked the wrong company as your integrator.

Here's what also costs money-  Employees, tools, vans, showroom space, training etc.  Sure, someone will no doubt say, "I shouldn't have to pay a higher fee because you have overhead".  Thats fine, then work with the guy that works out of his home kitchen with a helper.  He's the guy slamming in Sonos and URC with an occasional C4 system.  He's also the guy that spends half a day on the phone with tech support because he can't figure out a simple issue.  He's the guy that hasn't made an investment in C4 and he certainly isn't a guy that bled out with C4 trying to make an HTC work years ago.  

My clients pay for support.  On top of that, most of them are appreciative that we have a maintenance program, we see them quarterly.  Yea, they pay for that too, infact, they pay extra.  Why?  Because, their system exceeds expectations and so do we.  When it breaks, we see them within 24-48.

Platinum & Pinacle dealers exist for a reason and its not just because of the numbers we put up, every year...  Its because we don't tie up the tech support line.  Because the vast majority of us who have been around know how to engineer, install and support a system & our clients.  Its because we get passed from client to pre qualified client, because were great at what we do and we make $$$ doing it.  Bottom line, work with the right dealer or, well,  don't....  

 

[jfh]

12 minutes ago, David Paxton said:

The thought of a untrained person messing around with composer is a worrying one , even something as simple as setting up a zigbee mesh can cause all kinds of hell and totally destroy the user experience if not deployed correctly 

You can't configure a mesh with HE.

No one is advocating that untrained users should have access to Pro, onlynthose that have completed C4 certified training.  I guarantee you there would be some non-dealers that would be far better programmers than some of the existing dealers.

[David Paxton]

2 minutes ago, jfh said:

 

I'm sorry, but you are assuming just because someone has access to Pro means they are a good programmer and/or that the simple virtue of being a dealer assures quality of the user experience.   Your argument is a propagandized version of the "only dealers can do it right" fallacy.

 

The entire responsibility for end user satisfaction of the programming belongs at the feet of the programmer whether that be the dealer or the homeowner.

No Im rely not.

While I have worked in AV a long time, I originally learned to program control4 using a moody copy of composer that a friendly dealer had given me.

 

However, for ever user, like yourself, who is the kind of person who could easily work out composer will be 10 users who will tie themselves in a knot and then scream from the rooftops how rubbish control4 is.

[jfh]

@Simplyauto1  - I really don't see anyone clammoring to eliminate the dealer model.   I certainly don't want to see C4 gear sold direct.

Opening up Pro to C4 qualified non-dealers is not (or should not be) a threat to any good dealer.  Even if such access included direct access to support (seems unlikely), non-dealers aren't going to call in at a higher rate (and I would argue they are more likely to resolve issues than on their own - since that was the primary reason they want Pro in the first place).

 

"Work with the right dealer or don't" - I'm presume you aren't serious.  Most customers won't have any idea how good (or bad)!their dealers are until there is a problem.  I bought a support contract, but it wasn't honored because another dealer had touched the project.  Even while it was in effect I never had things addressed in 24-48 hours (which itself is an eternity for some customers).    Finding a good dealer is more location and luck of the draw than anything else.  If C4 starts holding dealers to response time and performance standards, maybe that will change.