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Whole house C4 switch replacement - Advice please!!


AdamCMH

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18 minutes ago, Larry said:

How do I know when the EA5 fails?  

I think he meant to say - When everything stops working, unfortunately its not hot standby.

You would have to use reconfigure the EA-3 with the config from the EA-5, and likely rebuild the zigbee mesh.

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@SMHarman -- great idea.  I will get a remote dealer (I am about to chose one from this forum, I told my installing dealer I will still use him for other things, but not C4 programming, installs, and similar issues -- I think C4 should allow more than one dealer on an account but they don't, so I will toggle) to sell and ship me an EA3 and install it as the slave, following your posted instructions.

You said 99% of the time this works -- what's the 1% issue?

Don't you think all new installs should consider this approach -- to not have lights is terrible.  I assume the slave EA3 would pick up the commands and take over seamlessly.

How do I know when the EA5 fails?  

Where should the ES3 be located?  Since my mesh seems OK, why not right next to the EA5?  Could they share the load?  Would this set-up confuse Alexa?

Should we start a new thread for "EA3 backing up EA5's" ??

It's not automatic. Controller failure is rare. Having an on-site spare will get you up and running quick.

 

The 1% would be super complex projects with many big drivers. Not even 1% realy

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1 hour ago, drivertutorial said:

I wouldn't worry about the signal failing, the biggest issue with C4 lighting for resilience is the director being a single point of failure.

The other week my controller died and we couldn't turn the lights on or off for 2 days.

If I did this again I would choose a system where each switch worked in the event of a failure to any other component in the system.

I've never used Insteon, but as they don't need a hub to work maybe they are better for resilience.

If you would do it again as you stated later on (meaing installed centrally) - you'd have the newer stuff and would get fail-over switches installed (the proper way of doing this). Not to mention, have several wired keypads with fall-back options set. The two combined severely reduce the issue if a main controller fails, giving you a large amount of 'safety' in these sorts of scenarios to still retain some level of control over your lights (other than walking up to the current models and press the buttons on them).

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Just to touch on a controller backing up another controller. It is possible to keep the secondary controller loaded with the current project. It would only be a matter of turning director on on the back up controller and rebuilding the zigbee mesh. This would take 5-10 minutes for the controller swap. And 2 minutes per switch to build the mesh. On average.

 

 

 

Happy Automating!

 

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6 hours ago, VINCELdUB said:

Just to touch on a controller backing up another controller. It is possible to keep the secondary controller loaded with the current project. It would only be a matter of turning director on on the back up controller and rebuilding the zigbee mesh. This would take 5-10 minutes for the controller swap. And 2 minutes per switch to build the mesh. On average.

The problem is that this can only be done by a dealer, so you would have to add in the time it takes to get someone to come to your house to do it.

Coming from the comms world and having built many products for resilience it would be pretty easy for C4 to automate this.

They would just need to

1) add VRRP to the controllers (its just linux open source)

2) have the backup box sync the config from the primary on changes.

3) sync the zigbee config and keys

4) have the backup activate the zigbee and make itself the director on failure to the primary.

This would help them sell more boxes and would be a relatively easy feature to add.

How do you submit feature requests to C4?

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1. What controller do you have? 

2. What's a light switch remote?

3. they always work manually  but zigbee is generate by the controller but I'd say extremly reliable  

4. White

 

 

What does "zigbee is generate" mean?

 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

 

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OK I understand there is no hot-backup possible. But following the ideas of @VINCELdUB and others, lets talk about having an exact duplicate EA5 on hand. Configured identically as the main EA5 while off-line, and then fired up and actually operating for a bit (with the other EA5 turned off) using the full mesh etc. as a test.  Same IP address so they can't both operate at the same time of course.  I understand it takes a dealer to do this, but is this not a one-time affair?  This is what the dealer would do if the first EA5 died for real, so obviously it is possible (although the one extra step here would be to force the same network address, which the dealer wouldn't worry about if this were a full replacement for a dead EA5).  

I know that when I unplug my EA5 and plug it back in, simulating a power failure, everything comes back on line perfectly, as you would expect.

So what would happen if I plugged back in the OTHER spare EA5?  Why can't we figure out a way that it just works at this point in time, with no additional dealer intervention necessary?  Is it that the MAC address of the spare is different?  Surely there is a way around that!  Why would it matter to the mesh?  Maybe C4 should sell backup controllers like this as a product!  Fully automating it is the great idea expressed by @drivertutorial a few posts ago.

What is the failure rate of EA5's?  It's an absolutely critical component in your life, no one wants their house bricked, even temporarily as you frantically try to reach your dealer (after grabbing you flashlight to find your phone, you do know where the flashlight is and the batteries are fresh, right?).  Back-up power generators are huge here, everyone has them post-Sandy, so this is not an issue folks don't think about.  Why is C4 not on top of this problem?

Remember I'm a newbie here, so please don't treat me harshly if I am being totally stupid, which is surely possible!

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15 minutes ago, Larry said:

So what would happen if I plugged back in the OTHER spare EA5?  Why can't we figure out a way that it just works at this point in time, with no additional dealer intervention necessary?  Is it that the MAC address of the spare is different?  Surely there is a way around that!  Why would it matter to the mesh?  Maybe C4 should sell backup controllers like this as a product!  Fully automating it is the great idea expressed by @drivertutorial a few posts ago.

What is the failure rate of EA5's?  It's an absolutely critical component in your life, no one wants their house bricked, even temporarily as you frantically try to reach your dealer (after grabbing you flashlight to find your phone, you do know where the flashlight is and the batteries are fresh, right?).  Back-up power generators are huge here, everyone has them post-Sandy, so this is not an issue folks don't think about.  Why is C4 not on top of this problem?

Remember I'm a newbie here, so please don't treat me harshly if I am being totally stupid, which is surely possible!

Unfortunately you would need to re-add all your zigbee devices to the new controller. There seems to be a way to move them to a new controller, but I tried and couldn't get it to work for me - maybe the existing controller needs to be online to do this (and obviously it won't be if something failed).

Having never used Composer Home I wonder if you can re-identify devices with that. Someone no doubt will let us know?

If not that would be the best first step for C4 to add, at least that way you could do exactly what you want and then put your devices onto the new mesh.

You're definitely not being stupid, what is stupid is the business model that stops people being able to fix problems.

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23 minutes ago, Larry said:

OK I understand there is no hot-backup possible. But following the ideas of @VINCELdUB and others, lets talk about having an exact duplicate EA5 on hand. Configured identically as the main EA5 while off-line, and then fired up and actually operating for a bit (with the other EA5 turned off) using the full mesh etc. as a test.  Same IP address so they can't both operate at the same time of course.  I understand it takes a dealer to do this, but is this not a one-time affair?  This is what the dealer would do if the first EA5 died for real, so obviously it is possible (although the one extra step here would be to force the same network address, which the dealer wouldn't worry about if this were a full replacement for a dead EA5).  

I know that when I unplug my EA5 and plug it back in, simulating a power failure, everything comes back on line perfectly, as you would expect.

So what would happen if I plugged back in the OTHER spare EA5?  Why can't we figure out a way that it just works at this point in time, with no additional dealer intervention necessary?  Is it that the MAC address of the spare is different?  Surely there is a way around that!  Why would it matter to the mesh?  Maybe C4 should sell backup controllers like this as a product!  Fully automating it is the great idea expressed by @drivertutorial a few posts ago.

What is the failure rate of EA5's?  It's an absolutely critical component in your life, no one wants their house bricked, even temporarily as you frantically try to reach your dealer (after grabbing you flashlight to find your phone, you do know where the flashlight is and the batteries are fresh, right?).  Back-up power generators are huge here, everyone has them post-Sandy, so this is not an issue folks don't think about.  Why is C4 not on top of this problem?

Remember I'm a newbie here, so please don't treat me harshly if I am being totally stupid, which is surely possible!

C4 doesn't work like this.  No concept of backup in this manner.

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Just now, Braduc1980 said:

Wouldn't this be a prime candidate for centralized lighting panels?

 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

 

panelized lighting, depending on how it is designed, does have some local redundancy, not fail over.  And non of the AV control or sensors would have fail over.

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panelized lighting, depending on how it is designed, does have some local redundancy, not fail over.  And non of the AV control or sensors would have fail over.

From a load perspective, wouldn't this provide an alternative to adding 150 significantly reducing the load by minimizing the reliance on zigbee?

 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

 

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Having a system go down would be a pain, but we all lived in the stone age before automation, no?  I believe the codes are stored on the kwikset locks so at least even if you lose your controller you can still lock/unlock the doors.  You should always have an alarm keypad too somewhere in the house, so you can still turn the alarm on and off.  I have a TV in my basement next to my centralized AV Rack so I could always manually plug it into a cable box via HDMI and watch tv without my matrix.  I have some sonos radios so I can always use the Sonos app to control things.  My c4 light switches will still control loads.  I kept my old garage door remotes so I could always swap those into the cars when needed.

Would it be ideal to have my hc800 crash, of course not.  Do I want to buy 2 controllers and keep one in the closet for when the original one goes, no way!  Too expensive to have a second ea5 or hc 800 laying around.  And if you plug in the second one and run it the same amount of time, who knows if and when that one will crash on you.

Your design should have some fail over and redundancy in place where you can live for a few days while a new controller is shipped to you and configured.  Do you have a second cable modem in your house in case your cable modem breaks?  My old cable company store hours were awful and unless I took time off from work I'd have to go on a Saturday to get a new modem.  So if the modem went on a Monday or Tuesday I may not have internet for almost a week - that would be worse in my opinion!

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31 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

C4 doesn't work like this.  No concept of backup in this manner.

OK, I get it.  You and others have made it clear this is dead-end thinking on my part.  But I have learned a lot, so thank you.  Until Control4 offers a quick near-time backup solution without need for a dealer (it does not need to be automatic, just fast and easy), I will limit my exposure safety-wise to an EA5 failure.  I have backups for everything else worked out carefully, and will now expand my contingency plans to the EA5 itself.  I can't believe I didn't consider this before, but it just never entered my mind until I saw this thread.

This contingency planning means unfortunately not expanding my Control4 installation as much as I wanted to.  I should be able to buy emergency EA5 failover.  But clearly I can't, so this is IMHO a flaw in the Control4 concept.  Maybe they are listening and will remedy this defect.

I have no problem having to contact a dealer to add new devices.  I understand the Control4 business model.  But emergencies need to be able to be handled by the homeowner personally without the dealer, especially if the homeowner is willing to fork over extra money for that right.  A/V is a luxury, but lighting, HVAC, locks, and alarms are not.  There are many scenarios, all terrible but possible, where your life may depend on them working.  This means understanding and testing regularly manual overrides to everything that C4 operates, or at least enough of the lighting to get by.  Not that hard really, nothing to it but to do it ... still this is an awakening moment for me.

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Just now, Larry said:

dead-end thinking on my part

it's great thinking! it's not a feature today.  It would be great if it was.

do you have fail over HVAC? Do you have fail over electric? water?

Not trying to point this out to be a dick, just saying that all major systems in your house likely don't have redundancy.  

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4 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

it's great thinking! it's not a feature today.  It would be great if it was.

do you have fail over HVAC? Do you have fail over electric? water?

Not trying to point this out to be a dick, just saying that all major systems in your house likely don't have redundancy.  

I think the point would be that electric and water are covered by the utilities companies and they have an SLA to fix problems. If its in your house you can get insurance cheaply to do it.

Maybe there is a business for a service contract by dealers with SLAs.

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2 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

Do you have a second cable modem in your house in case your cable modem breaks?  My old cable company store hours were awful and unless I took time off from work I'd have to go on a Saturday to get a new modem.  So if the modem went on a Monday or Tuesday I may not have internet for almost a week - that would be worse in my opinion!

I have Verizon WWAN on two laptops and test regularly in case Comcast (the modem, or the whole network) goes down. My wife and I are software developers who often work from home and we would be in terrible commercial shape if we lost internet access for more than 5 minutes.  I also need access to TV News so I have a battery-operated old-fashioned over-the-air portable TV in the closet (which I also test periodically).  I will probably add a satellite service so I can get "cable" channels too if Comcast vanishes.  I tried to buy FIOS as well as Xfinity (I told you I am serious about backup) but Verizon would not offer it in the new development I am moving in to.  The audio of most cable TV news channels is available on Sirius/XM, so I have that route available too (use hand-held receivers, keep 'em charged, or hop in the car!).  I have a crank-operated FM radio as well.

For internet access you can also create a WiFi hotspot using your phone, but that is not as robust as Verizon WWAN. Would do in a pinch though

Trust me, I have really made plans for the failure of everything (even the freezer, toilets [don't ask], etc.) since I have experienced all these failures at one time or another in my life. 

Bringing this back to the thread topic -- lack of a quick-and-easy backup/restore protocol that does not require a dealer is, IMHO, a significant issue that C4 should fix.

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1 minute ago, drivertutorial said:

I think the point would be that electric and water are covered by the utilities companies and they have an SLA to fix problems. If its in your house you can get insurance cheaply to do it.

Maybe there is a business for a service contract by dealers with SLAs.

you don't have redundancy for the water line and power cable to your house and you don't have an SLA for being fixed....sorry disagree there.

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The problem is that this can only be done by a dealer, so you would have to add in the time it takes to get someone to come to your house to do it.

Or the homeowner installs teamviewer on their machine and the dealer does this remotely.

 

Or the client is that concerned that a PC to enable this without client interaction is installed in the rack.

 

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11 minutes ago, eddy.trochez said:

Every dimmer, keypad dimmer, and switch in Control4 (except panelized) can be bound to its own load. It'll work even if the Controller fails. Scenes won't work, but on/off won't be affected.  

Agreed, that is the key to the new failure-contingency plan I have to develop.  But the switches are buried in closets all over the house, the idea being to avoid wall acne and create a great mesh.  We put a single, exposed-visually, programmable keypad in each room -- that was the whole point of the design.  The closet switches are hard to get to, impossible if the lights are off.  I should have thought more about the single loads the exposed keypads control -- too late for that now.

All it will take is some thinking, and maybe mounting re-chargeable flashlights with "find me in the dark" LEDs on the walls in some closets -- this is a standard item, the cradle mounts easily. It's more about realizing the potential failure, periodic testing and the drill for all family members.

Thanks for all the helpful comments.

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12 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

you don't have redundancy for the water line and power cable to your house and you don't have an SLA for being fixed....sorry disagree there.

Agree, no redundancy - but I never said there was.

I do have an SLA for the water https://www.unitedutilities.com/globalassets/documents/pdf/our_standards_of_service_acc16.pdf

Its the same for the electric, but I can't be bothered finding that one.

Might be a UK thing.

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