Controversial Topic

[C4tune]

I just wanted to tell the do it your selfers that if for some strange reason you have access to composer anything is possible. I learned the software very quickly, albeit I'm 26 year old and grew up infatuated with the Logitech Harmony line. Also the hardware is expensive, but if you can snag speakers over time at real estate sales, eBay, ect, the cost can greatly depreciate. I also use a hdmi matrix from amazon that works brilliantly.

My point is that if you love control4, but it seems like you can't afford it there's a chance you can get it done for less than a dealers quote. 

I did my complete EA3 8 audio 4 video zone and complete lighting for less than what my ten year old car is worth.

I must add that if you can't or don't choose to learn the programming completely the user experience will suffer or worse then system won't work at all.

 

My 2 cents.

 

[pkkaiser]

It really is too bad that pro is only for dealers. My dealer sucks and knows nothing about programming compared to what I have learned. He had even asked me how to program things that I have done with my system. I understand the completely the idea of controlling the hardware side of things since it is so powerful and set up right....brilliant. And C4 argument that dealers should set up and upgrade things cuz so much gets messed up if u do it wrong is reasonable. But there are people out there who can program way better than most dealers, but not install drivers and bind things (which is all my dealer does, no programming cuz he has no idea how; eg, asked him to turn on light with motion from alarm system. Said it can't be done. I did it with 1 line of code). It is stupid simple to do these things and allowing certain users who are willing to pay for certification (like me) to gain accesscan to Pro would make C4 so much better. 

[knowitall]

Logitech : Control4 :: Apple : bowling ball

[msgreenf]

It's not controversial it's just a corporate policy that really no one on this board is going to change...

[Larry]

pk -- binding is just a name-value pair database!  So for lighting control you can force your dealer (use your checkbook as the weapon here) to create and bind a named (but not-yet-existing) script for every single keypad button, just choose an obvious naming convention.  Now you add (and modify) the programming in Composer HE as you are ready.  Just NEVER change a name and you are fine.  I am a (about-to-retire) software engineer with a PhD and 9 patents, and a former lecturer in Computer Science at a major university -- I need my dealer programming for me like I need a hole in the head.

But you are SO right -- if only we could buy, download, and install drivers.

C4 could fix this -- tightly control the hardware market and the used market by requiring the dealer to install everything physical, and do the initial set-up and programming.  THEN, if a user is willing to say "the dealer is done with the programming" and purchase Composer HE ADVANCED (I just made that up, at a higher price point than regular HE) and pay an annual support fee, then HE ADVANCED allows the installation of downloaded (free and commercial) drivers, and binding.  Support from C4 for this could be "email only" (and paid for by the annual fee) and as in every other similar ecosystem out there the community will fill the support gap, much as this forum does now, and independent programmers will be commercially available without having to be remote dealers (so you can engage more than one at a time, and don't have to inform C4).

Everyone wins, and C4 has a new revenue stream.

[Gary Leeds UK]

More chance of me having a nite out  Gwyneth Paltrow 

[Larry]

And is that lovely you're pictured with Gary going out drinking with Chris Martin?  You two caused the break-up?

[msgreenf]

pk -- binding is just a name-value pair database!  So for lighting control you can force your dealer (use your checkbook as the weapon here) to create and bind a named (but not-yet-existing) script for every single keypad button, just choose an obvious naming convention.  Now you add (and modify) the programming in Composer HE as you are ready.  Just NEVER change a name and you are fine.  I am a (about-to-retire) software engineer with a PhD and 9 patents, and a former lecturer in Computer Science at a major university -- I need my dealer programming for me like I need a hole in the head.
But you are SO right -- if only we could buy, download, and install drivers.
C4 could fix this -- tightly control the hardware market and the used market by requiring the dealer to install everything physical, and do the initial set-up and programming.  THEN, if a user is willing to say "the dealer is done with the programming" and purchase Composer HE ADVANCED (I just made that up, at a higher price point than regular HE) and pay an annual support fee, then HE ADVANCED allows the installation of downloaded (free and commercial) drivers, and binding.  Support from C4 for this could be "email only" (and paid for by the annual fee) and as in every other similar ecosystem out there the community will fill the support gap, much as this forum does now, and independent programmers will be commercially available without having to be remote dealers (so you can engage more than one at a time, and don't have to inform C4).
Everyone wins, and C4 has a new revenue stream.

Didn't you just describe the current market. Dealers control hardware...

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[msgreenf]

And if your house was crashed would you accept email only support? I don't think so.

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[msgreenf]

Oh and your assumption that you can't rename things because name is a primary key is incorrect everything is based on internal ID numbers so you can rename anything you want. But you have patents so you knew that

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[C4tune]

Yes. I do accept a certain level of risk. The cost benefit is undeniable. I could have never afforded to take the dealer route. 

[C4tune]

3 hours ago, msgreenf said:

It's not controversial it's just a corporate policy that really no one on this board is going to change...

I know. It was more a message to people who have stumbled into access to composer pro and think it may be too challenging to slowly learn vs the dealer training of which I've never taken. 

[wappinghigh]

3 hours ago, Gary Leeds UK said:

More chance of me having a nite out  Gwyneth Paltrow 

...or more chance  of Hollywood acknowledging the monumental stuff up they have made with HDMI/HDCP and DRM

.... or England becoming a republic - now Kate is popping 'em out... 

[wappinghigh]

Ah... Composer Pro threads...

The gift that keeps on givin.. 

You're not going to get any other comment on this from me! hahahaha been there done that.. 

 

[Larry]

Replies to msgreenf:

1. Yes I know dealers control hardware, that was my point -- C4 would be giving up very little if they allowed motivated end-users to add drivers and bind scripts to buttons.

2. And such motivated users could still go to their dealer for support -- they would have to pay for it, maybe a lot -- if they messed things up with their "advanced" actions.  That is the route one would go if their house crashed and they couldn't fix it, or find someone (maybe an independent consultant) who could help.

3. A C4 house crash would be unlikely to take out your internet/email, but if it did you could always use your phone, or laptop with a WWAN card, etc, etc.  Standard support only by email is very typical ... and see #2, there's always your dealer.

4. I dispute your point on re-naming, if you are using Composer HE the way I described.  You have no access to the internal ID numbers, only the names that your dealer created when he bound the to-be-written scripts.  If you rename one, you have lost the ability to bind to the button in play.

5. Your line "But you have patents so you knew that" reads like a sarcastic dig at me.  Why?  No place for that on this forum, I would have thought.  You were one of the people here i respected and whose posts I always read.  I need to reconsider that, clearly.  I mention patents, degrees, and computer science academic positions only to point out that there can be C4 users who most likely can program as well as, and perhaps far better than, their dealers, just as other posters in this thread have said.  If I merely stated "Hey, I can write code", why would you believe me?  Credentials establish credibility.  I was trying to make a point, so my credibility is at issue.  Everyone's LinkedIn profile lists all these things, hardly stuff that isn't shared widely in many other social media venues.

[blub]

Control4 wouldn't loose sh** if Composer would be available to end users or HE allowing some minor stuff like lights, relays and so on for a simple reason:

People that buy control4 hardware usually have enough money and have a lot of work and therefore almost no interest in doing DiY.

Those who are I interested in DiY are only like 0,5-1% and meet up here.

But it's a never ending discussion, Composer for all won't happen.

Ppl just need to get used to it.. !

[blub]

Control4 wouldn't loose sh** if Composer would be available to end users or HE allowing some minor stuff like lights, relays and so on for a simple reason:

People that buy control4 hardware usually have enough money and have a lot of work and therefore almost no interest in doing DiY.

Those who are I interested in DiY are only like 0,5-1% and meet up here.

But it's a never ending discussion, Composer for all won't happen.

Ppl just need to get used to it.. !

[msgreenf]

Replies to msgreenf:
1. Yes I know dealers control hardware, that was my point -- C4 would be giving up very little if they allowed motivated end-users to add drivers and bind scripts to buttons.
2. And such motivated users could still go to their dealer for support -- they would have to pay for it, maybe a lot -- if they messed things up with their "advanced" actions.  That is the route one would go if their house crashed and they couldn't fix it, or find someone (maybe an independent consultant) who could help.
3. A C4 house crash would be unlikely to take out your internet/email, but if it did you could always use your phone, or laptop with a WWAN card, etc, etc.  Standard support only by email is very typical ... and see #2, there's always your dealer.
4. I dispute your point on re-naming, if you are using Composer HE the way I described.  You have no access to the internal ID numbers, only the names that your dealer created when he bound the to-be-written scripts.  If you rename one, you have lost the ability to bind to the button in play.
5. Your line "But you have patents so you knew that" reads like a sarcastic dig at me.  Why?  No place for that on this forum, I would have thought.  You were one of the people here i respected and whose posts I always read.  I need to reconsider that, clearly.  I mention patents, degrees, and computer science academic positions only to point out that there can be C4 users who most likely can program as well as, and perhaps far better than, their dealers, just as other posters in this thread have said.  If I merely stated "Hey, I can write code", why would you believe me?  Credentials establish credibility.  I was trying to make a point, so my credibility is at issue.  Everyone's LinkedIn profile lists all these things, hardly stuff that isn't shared widely in many other social media venues.

Sorry to come across that way. What I was trying to say is that control4 doesn't care about the credentials you have. They only care that you or others in your company go to their training.

In terms of renaming things. I get you. You can't rename anything in he. Well you sorta can. Renaming things doesn't disassociate any programming related to it.

Ultimately here is the thing about pro. This has been a control4 policy for a long time. You knew this when you bought in. If you didnt you didn't do enough due diligence or your dealer lied. Both suck.

Control4 is trying to get the industry to adopt sddp which allows you to auto add devices from a touchscreen. It installs the driver and everything.

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[Larry]

Great points msgreenf, thanks!  Your observation re C4 training is thought-provoking ... why can't C4 allow a non-dealer to take the class(for a fee), get certified, and buy Composer PRO. I believe Cisco did this early on with great success ... without being a dealer (with steep minimum purchase requirements) you could become a Cisco Certified Engineer, or something like that.

sddp sounds like a very good solution, thanks I didn't know about this development  ... with it, homeowners could add devices, really important. Especially when combined with the "bind all buttons to named scripts in advance", it kinda solves all my problems.  And re re-naming, I only meant the bound scripts ... it looks to me that, in HE, if you re-name a bound script the programming stays, but the binding to a particular keypad button vanishes.  A dealer doesn't care, he/she just re-binds.  But I can't!  So I named all these don't-yet-exist-scripts with the keypad "name" and button position, and will leave it that way forever.  C4 did a great job with the Alexa integration so I can give these scripts different names (easier and shorter) for use with Alexa, exactly as C4 intended, solving the problem.

I knew Pro had more features than HE before I bought in to the C4 ecosystem, the dealer explained that, but I really thought it was limited to new hardware installations, not binding scripts to my existing keypad buttons, nor downloading a new driver for hardware already installed (for example, I would like the new specific LG TV driver instead of the generic IR driver the dealer installed ... I would like to be able to buy it from the developer and install it).  And thanks for the clarification re credentials ... I understand now you were making a different point than what I thought,  so we're "friends" again!

[knowitall]

Well unfortunately, even if they did open the training to the public for a cost, that doesn't stop people from going around doing programming on the side. Unless they brought back the old licensing system for iOS and what not, but that's for sure not worth their time. Nor is over packing training. 

 

And tbh, the training is a great jumping off point if you know NOTHING about anything, as with most things the best training is in the job trail and error. 

This forum is a small nitche. Like someone said above most c4 clientele just want it to work and don't care about anything other than pressing a button and stuff happening. I have been doing this over 10 years and have sold 1 HE license. 

[Larry]

5 hours ago, blub said:

People that buy control4 hardware usually have enough money and have a lot of work and therefore almost no interest in doing

Ah, you are forgetting about people who have just retired, bought their new retirement home, have time, programming skills, and a desire to spend less money than before (except on the initial house purchase, since it's their last, a big spurge on fully-decked-out C4 seems like the right way to go!).  This demographic is a wave, and DIY is a perfect way for retirees to fill the now-empty days.  

The development here is 56 town homes, age-restricted to 55+, and the builder pushed C4 big-time.  It started out strong, I was one of the first, but fizzled out as the dealer (sub-contractor to the builder) sent out techs who could not program well.  Worse, the builder also pushed Bose gear (I didn't bite), and there was some problem with Bose/C4 integration (I have no knowledge re this) so many homeowners who went "all in" were quite upset.

When the dealer missed a bunch of appointments I solved problems for many of my neighbors, requiring them to buy HE, and gleaning info from this community (which is wonderful!).  If I could have bought PRO, and been a "certified" independent consultant, I bet I could have solved them all.  For no money -- we help each other here.

Many of the newer buyers are skipping C4 ... so what did C4 achieve?  Sure some homeowners found another C4 dealer, some now use remote dealers, but the builder would not allow any of them in to the sales office, nor could they install anything pre-close, so purchasers hearing the horror stories just skipped it.  The builder is using a different dealer in his next big project, but that doesn't help here.

The essential flaw in the C4 dealer-model is the requirement that you have one dealer registered at a time, with notification to C4, and dealers therefore know how you are playing it.  Compare, for example, to Hunter Douglass window treatments (expensive, whole-house, automated etc.).  Hunter Douglass tightly controls the dealer network, and some products are only available to top-tier ("Gallery") dealers.  These high-end products cannot be DIY'd ... so this is a good analogy,  Of course just like C4 I can solicit independent bids from dealers before I buy, but unlike C4 I can have two different dealer/installers actually do the work, and compare, without exposing my hand to the dealers.  In fact, one is doing the basement, and one the second floor, and I will compare quality and workmanship and responsiveness before picking one to do the all-important main floor.  Both dealers are getting paid, and in fact I told each that they were only getting one floor (without revealing the name of the other dealer, but they can probably guess), so there is nothing under-handed about this.  And the Hunter Douglass automation controller talks to everything installed, so the system remains fully integrated despite the two different dealers.

The fact that I have this flexibility is what made me choose Hunter Douglass instead of someone else!  This is a lesson C4 needs to learn.  They need to face up to the fact that dealer programming quality can vary over time, and they can't monitor it or guarantee it works ... they can insist the dealer be trained, but that's quite low-power when it comes to ensuring quality.  The free-enterprise market is the answer, as it often is in these cases -- develop a trained and certified network of independent C4 homeowner-assist programmers who are armed with PRO.  Dealers will initially complain loudly, but in the end they will realize that, just like independent garage mechanics vs. the car-dealer's in-house shop, it is far better this way.  More sales, happier customers.  In fact, I bet some dealers will sub-contract the programming out to these independents!

Seems obvious.

[sonic30101]

I went to the class and got certified, access to pro ends when you are no longer employed by a dealer. Sucks, but that is how it is. I would love to do remote programing as a sub/freelance for any dealer that wants a programer every now and then.

[msgreenf]

Ah, you are forgetting about people who have just retired, bought their new retirement home, have time, programming skills, and a desire to spend less money than before (except on the initial house purchase, since it's their last, a big spurge on fully-decked-out C4 seems like the right way to go!).  This demographic is a wave, and DIY is a perfect way for retirees to fill the now-empty days.  
The development here is 56 town homes, age-restricted to 55+, and the builder pushed C4 big-time.  It started out strong, I was one of the first, but fizzled out as the dealer (sub-contractor to the builder) sent out techs who could not program well.  Worse, the builder also pushed Bose gear (I didn't bite), and there was some problem with Bose/C4 integration (I have no knowledge re this) so many homeowners who went "all in" were quite upset.
When the dealer missed a bunch of appointments I solved problems for many of my neighbors, requiring them to buy HE, and gleaning info from this community (which is wonderful!).  If I could have bought PRO, and been a "certified" independent consultant, I bet I could have solved them all.  For no money -- we help each other here.
Many of the newer buyers are skipping C4 ... so what did C4 achieve?  Sure some homeowners found another C4 dealer, some now use remote dealers, but the builder would not allow any of them in to the sales office, nor could they install anything pre-close, so purchasers hearing the horror stories just skipped it.  The builder is using a different dealer in his next big project, but that doesn't help here.
The essential flaw in the C4 dealer-model is the requirement that you have one dealer registered at a time, with notification to C4, and dealers therefore know how you are playing it.  Compare, for example, to Hunter Douglass window treatments (expensive, whole-house, automated etc.).  Hunter Douglass tightly controls the dealer network, and some products are only available to top-tier ("Gallery") dealers.  These high-end products cannot be DIY'd ... so this is a good analogy,  Of course just like C4 I can solicit independent bids from dealers before I buy, but unlike C4 I can have two different dealer/installers actually do the work, and compare, without exposing my hand to the dealers.  In fact, one is doing the basement, and one the second floor, and I will compare quality and workmanship and responsiveness before picking one to do the all-important main floor.  Both dealers are getting paid, and in fact I told each that they were only getting one floor (without revealing the name of the other dealer, but they can probably guess), so there is nothing under-handed about this.  And the Hunter Douglass automation controller talks to everything installed, so the system remains fully integrated despite the two different dealers.
The fact that I have this flexibility is what made me choose Hunter Douglass instead of someone else!  This is a lesson C4 needs to learn.  They need to face up to the fact that dealer programming quality can vary over time, and they can't monitor it or guarantee it works ... they can insist the dealer be trained, but that's quite low-power when it comes to ensuring quality.  The free-enterprise market is the answer, as it often is in these cases -- develop a trained and certified network of independent C4 homeowner-assist programmers who are armed with PRO.  Dealers will initially complain loudly, but in the end they will realize that, just like independent garage mechanics vs. the car-dealer's in-house shop, it is far better this way.  More sales, happier customers.  In fact, I bet some dealers will sub-contract the programming out to these independents!
Seems obvious.

Certified independent consultant... sounds a lot like a dealer...

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[msgreenf]

Control4 also has dealer ranking based on sales.

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[Larry]

5 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

Certified independent consultant... sounds a lot like a dealer...

Don't dealers have minimum annual order requirements for hardware?  I think that's the essential difference.  I'm thinking of a software-only person, and not licensed to do original installs.

Maybe the independent auto mechanic garage vs. new-car-dealer in-house repair shop is the best analogy.  You buy the new car from the dealer, and maybe stay with his repair shop, maybe not.