Centralized audio (or OMG that's not how it's supposed to work!)

[videostorm]

Ok, so the title got your attention 

I talk to dealers quoting AV installation jobs everyday.  It seems like 90% of time they are quoting a centralized audio system with in-ceiling speakers that they would like to also use for TV audio.

So please suspend your pre-conceptions for a second.....     This just isn't the best way to do things.

1. Your AV sync (lip sync) is going to be wrong unless you have dedicated hardware to correct this for every room.  The settings will be different for different TVs as well, so it takes time to tune this even with the right gear.
2. Speaker placement is the most important aspect of your TV audio experience.  TV audio is specifically mixed given reference locations for speakers.  If they are not in the right spot, it sounds really weird, is disorienting to watch dialog, and just plays with your head in general (assuming you are actually trying to watch the TV).
3. Likewise, placing your speakers properly for the TV is almost always bad for trying to create "room filling" music.

Here is a much better way to do things, either:

• If you want to include video sources in your centralized audio matrix / amps, you should have DEDICATED speakers & zones for your TVs.  The extra zones must have lip sync correction.  Don't try to reuse your music speakers or vice versa.
• Better yet, just use separate systems for your music (standard matrix) and your video (HDMI distribution usually includes audio to the TVs).  TV speakers can still be in-wall etc but drive them from the TV outputs.  These will also have proper lip sync without any extra work on your side. 

Dissenting opinions are of course welcome.

[thegreatheed]

Video distribution systems have lip sync adjustment features.

Problem solved.

[videostorm]

30 minutes ago, thegreatheed said:

Video distribution systems have lip sync adjustment features.

Problem solved.

Some do, but they only correct for their own delay (not the delay of the TVs).

And then you still have disembodied voices talking down at you from the sky whenever you watch TV.

[C4tune]

My 8-Zone matrix amp powers four video zones in my system. My HDMI matrix was rather inexpensive and there is no delay. Granted I’m in a somewhat small apartment, but I love it even if it is stereo. I couldn’t imagine having two sets of speakers that work interchangeably. Especially at the price I paid for mine. Seems especially wasteful. 

[videostorm]

"Wasteful" is always an interesting discussion in the home automation world.  In any case, given you have nice speakers you probably are more geared (and they are hopefully positioned) for listening to music.  In large rooms, that would mean a setup for omnidirectional sound.  In a smaller room, you could get away with a more traditional stereo sweet spotting.

You still may benefit by adding some inexpensive (decent) speakers at the TV (driven from the TV output).  While your HDMI matrix doesn't have significant delay, your TV still does.  Usually around 30 to 40 ms, but it varies a lot based on the processing it uses.  If you don't believe it, try turning on both your centralized speakers and the TV speakers at the same time.  It will sound like the TV speakers are a slight echo of the centralized ones.  Plus you are getting the benefit of properly centered and mixed sound while viewing.

In your case this all may not make a huge difference, but imagine setups in rooms with huge vaulted ceilings and 800 sq ft.  I was at one of these at parade of homes recently and the in-ceiling speakers playing audio for the TV was a serious problem.  The installer showing off the system didn't seem to get it...

[C4tune]

Yeah. Larger home could prob benefit. At least an AVR in each vaulted section may help.

[zaphod]

The OP in this thread makes sense to me - I kind of have this in my kitchen right now with wall mounted speakers for music attached to a SpeakerPoint and a TV with AVR and separate speakers (just stereo) for TV content.  But doesn't this lead to two audio endpoints in the room?  We have dealt with this issue by moving the SpeakerPoint to a virtual room called Kitchen North.  Is there a better way of dealing with this, especially if you may want to have music playing from the TV/AVR speakers as well?

[Cyknight]

While the original thread is not without sense, we do dozens of systems a year, and sync isn't an issue for the vast majority (one every other year or so needs some good tweaking but still ends up working fine.

 

I do not disagree with the 'audio from the ceiling' aspect as such - indeed plenty of people therefor decide NOT to get audio from the speakers. Then again, where you use ceiling speakers is generally where there is casual use for both audio and TV - ie the pool table/poker area - a kitchen of office etc where it's not a bother - a real 'sit down and watch some [fill in your poison] area' would have a dedicated surround setup with at least far more advanced placement of speakers, if not using wall or even bookshelf/tower speakers.

 

The base principals of the post is sound - but the actual affect of the principals are very minor in real life.

Nice way to argue for the 'slow' Video storm Netplay though (/jk - )

[videostorm]

25 minutes ago, zaphod said:

The OP in this thread makes sense to me - I kind of have this in my kitchen right now with wall mounted speakers for music attached to a SpeakerPoint and a TV with AVR and separate speakers (just stereo) for TV content.  But doesn't this lead to two audio endpoints in the room?  We have dealt with this issue by moving the SpeakerPoint to a virtual room called Kitchen North.  Is there a better way of dealing with this, especially if you may want to have music playing from the TV/AVR speakers as well?

C4 does have the "Audio switching endpoint" and the "Video's audio switching endpoints" for every room.  I've never tested this though because I'm not a dealer and my house uses localized audio.  Perhaps someone else can answer that better?

[Cyknight]

Yes there are separate audio endpoints available for audio and video - setting them will force one or the other for each. Indeed, your own house would have that setup already presumably

You CAN use audio endpoints 2 for a second set of audio devices, but that wouldn't help in this scenario (where you want audio from both the AV and speakerpoint for music) as both would have access to all the sources, therefor endpoint 1 would be chosen always. There's a work around by adding (virtual) second sets of audio sources (ie cable box 1 (music) and tie it all to the same controls, but that wouldn't help with native streaming services, nor is it any more user friendly than having two rooms.

[videostorm]

18 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

 

The base principals of the post is sound - but the actual affect of the principals are very minor in real life.

 

Definitely it depends on the specifics of the room and the users expectations.  However, AV sync and speaker placement are basic fundamentals for a proper AV experience.  All the advanced video and audio formats we spend so much time on don't help at all if the basics are wrong.

[Cyknight]

1 minute ago, videostorm said:

Definitely it depends on the specifics of the room and the users expectations.  However, AV sync and speaker placement are basic fundamentals for a proper AV experience.  All the advanced video and audio formats we spend so much time on don't help at all if the basics are wrong.

Yes, but it's up to the pro installer to not get the basics 'wrong'

[zaphod]

54 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

Yes there are separate audio endpoints available for audio and video - setting them will force one or the other for each. Indeed, your own house would have that setup already presumably

You CAN use audio endpoints 2 for a second set of audio devices, but that wouldn't help in this scenario (where you want audio from both the AV and speakerpoint for music) as both would have access to all the sources, therefor endpoint 1 would be chosen always. There's a work around by adding (virtual) second sets of audio sources (ie cable box 1 (music) and tie it all to the same controls, but that wouldn't help with native streaming services, nor is it any more user friendly than having two rooms.

Thanks - for my setup I want the option of having different audio - in other words having music playing from the wall speakers and also having different audio (ie. TV audio) coming out of the TV/AVR speakers or having the same coming out of both sets of speakers.  If I were to build a house/system from scratch I would definitely put ceiling speakers in pretty much every room and then also have AVRs where I want a better sound experience for AV.  Or for a simpler setup, like a bedroom, perhaps still have the ceiling speakers but just use the TV speakers instead of an AVR and not worry about feeding that audio back to a matrix amp.