Another Insteon Question

[C4S]

First, thanks to all that have shared insights and helped me so far. I have realized that I had a lot to learn before making some decisions about how to proceed. I’m getting closer but still have some lingering questions before I forge ahead.

 

For those that have integrated Insteon, is there any difference between using the serial PLM modem and using the original hub through the network? Any advantages/disadvantages between the two?

 

Also, do you do all the scene creation in C4, or do you want to do any scenes in Insteon before integration? I’m guessing I should to all the linking of devices together (three way switches, keypad buttons, etc, but that any additional work should be done in Composer.

 

Thanks again to all for your help!

 

 

 

 

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[jackstone]

There is no real advantage of using either the PLM Modem or the Hub v1. I found the Hub more practical because it can be placed anywhere, thanks to the Ethernet connection. and Hub/Modem placement is important with Insteon since it rely a lot on Powerline communication (even dual-band module mostly rely on powerline). But the PLM Modem have an advantage of being the only compatible interface still available to purchase today.

The hub/modem should ne placed in the outlet near the electrical distribution panel for optimal reliability.

 

As for the scene. DO NOT use C4 Advanced Lighting to create a scene with Insteon devices. The latest Insteon driver removed the option for building an Insteon scene within C4 because it's no reliable and easily screwed up.

Build you whole Insteon system using Houselinc software, not the APP, not any third party software, just use Houselinc. Link all your modules to the Hub using Houselinc and create all the keypad bindings and scene in Houselinc. Using Houselinc is PITA, it crash very often and the scene creation interface is very buggy but keep going and do it. Don't forget to configure each of your scene to use one of the phantom button of the Hub/Modem as the scene "Controller" (there is a checkbox in Houselinc interface) and take note of the button number used for each scene.

Then in C4, use the Scene Dimmer driver and enter the button number you've noted and your scene will be triggable with C4 with perfect result. You can have the Scene dimmer part of a C4 scene to have the Insteon Light to react with C4 light but don't expect keypad LED feedback with Insteon light, they does not push back their state when triggered by a scene.

Building a reliable Insteon system integrated in C4 is not easy but if done correct it will be rock solid, I run my whole home with insteon and C4 since 2010 and ZERO issue. Please post on this forum again if you need more help, by doing this we'll be helping other people that try to get Insteon to work properly in C4.

[C4S]

Thanks!

I have read that the hub has a limit of 400 links/scenes. I’ll have about 100 Insteon devices, and I believe most of them will create 2 links each with the hub, so I guess that would leave about 200 scenes available - which seems like more than enough, but I’m a little new to this.

I assume the scenes get stored in the hub or the modem, so once we disconnect from the PC or HouseLinc, C4 can still access them and trigger them.

Can C4 make use of Insteon motion, door, and open/close sensors? Can C4 work with the 2450 I/O Linc?


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[jackstone]

Correct, each scene is basically only a turn on level on a certain fade, and it need two links for bidirectional behavior but does not work half of the time on scene trigger because too many dimmers are sending back their status on the network and when a collision happen it simply discard the information most of the time.

And the scene are store both on the Hub/Modem and the dimmer itself. Each dimmer will have one link for the scene and the other link will reside on the PLM. there is only one link entry per scene stored into the hub.

Can you use Insteon motion sensor with C4, yes of course, and they work pretty well IF YOU DO NOT PLAN TO TRIGGER AN INSTEON LOAD... If you do so, create the links within Houselinc and it will work perfectly, else, remember what I've said about Insteon network collision?. Triggering a C4 dimmer with and Insteon dimmer work perfect. At home, I even use $10 X10 wireless Motion Sensor with C4 (using Insteon as X10 gateway) and I can trigger anything in composer Programming, and it surprisingly very reliable.

As for the I/OLInc, just use it as an output device (relay), the input is not reliable... as most of the "inbound" signal from any Insteon devices.

Insteon work best if you bind module together using their "linking" technology, if you use any Integration hub, what you get is perfect "control" over everything but anything coming from the modules is really flaky and we can't rely on it.

[C4S]

So if I wanted to use an Insteon sensor to trigger an Insteon device and something else within C4, I should create the scene in houselinc for the Insteon device and then use the sensor to trigger a C4 scene for the non Insteon devices?

Would I do the same for an Insteon keypad button that I want to control a C4 scene (such as play music in a certain room)?

Thanks!


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[jackstone]

Hey, I never explained Insteon basics to someone who understand that well! You are all correct! Create the link to Insteon stuff within Houselinc, and yes you can still use keypad feedback to trigger anything else in C4 EXCEPT Insteon stuff  I use my Insteon keypad to turn on the music and ramp the volume up/down, and it's pretty dawn reliable, but don't expect it to react as quickly as a C4 keypad...

[C4S]

Thanks! I’m starting to get the hang of the logic. When you say there is a delay using an Insteon keypad, are we talking one second, a few seconds, longer?


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[jackstone]

10 minutes ago, C4Scott said:

Thanks! I’m starting to get the hang of the logic. When you say there is a delay using an Insteon keypad, are we talking one second, a few seconds, longer?


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It's a minor delay (only few MS)  that is just "not instantly", but you can easily live with it.

[C4S]

Ok, great. So can a 1 Insteon device can be add to C4 scene from composer, but if I want to add 2 (or more) Insteon devices to a scene, I need to build the Insteon scene first for those 2 devices and then trigger the Insteon scene in composer? Or even if I just want to trigger 1 Insteon device in a C4 scene, do I need to use an Insteon scene for the Insteon device that gets trigger by the C4 scene?


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[jackstone]

Yeah one device is ok to be placed in a C4 scene, but as long you want multiple insteon devices, use an Insteon scene and place this Insteon Scene into the C4 scene, hope it make sense.

[dcovach]

@jackstone  What are the differences between v1 and v2 driver from houselogix?  I've only used v2

[C4S]

@jackstone - How do I go about adding additional Insteon devices in the future? Connect the modem back to Houselinc, add the devices and update scenes, reconnect to C4 director and have my installer add any new scenes and new devices? Do we have to reimport and rebind all of the original scenes and devices, that r just update for the new ones? Thanks.


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[jackstone]

3 hours ago, dcovach said:

@jackstone  What are the differences between v1 and v2 driver from houselogix?  I've only used v2

V1 is just the older version that use V1 Light Proxy and does not use the proxy keypad. It'll work, but less pretty and need a bit much programming.

33 minutes ago, C4Scott said:

@jackstone - How do I go about adding additional Insteon devices in the future? Connect the modem back to Houselinc, add the devices and update scenes, reconnect to C4 director and have my installer add any new scenes and new devices? Do we have to reimport and rebind all of the original scenes and devices, that r just update for the new ones? Thanks.


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Unfortunately yes, you have to disconnect the PLM and use Houselinc to add more devices. You don't have to change anything on the C4 scene if you do not create new scene.

[C4S]

Thanks. Just to clarify, if I start out with 50 Insteon devices and 10 Insteon scenes, if I want to add 10 more Insteon devices and 5 more scenes, I would only need to bind into C4 the 10 new devices and 5 new scenes, but the original 50 devices and 10 scenes will not need to be added again. Is that correct?

Also, I assume I can modify an Insteon scene to add or removes devices by just hooking up modem to houselinc, making the edits, and reconnections to the C4 director. No need to bug the dealer. Is that correct?

Thanks!


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[jackstone]

9 minutes ago, C4Scott said:

Thanks. Just to clarify, if I start out with 50 Insteon devices and 10 Insteon scenes, if I want to add 10 more Insteon devices and 5 more scenes, I would only need to bind into C4 the 10 new devices and 5 new scenes, but the original 50 devices and 10 scenes will not need to be added again. Is that correct?

Also, I assume I can modify an Insteon scene to add or removes devices by just hooking up modem to houselinc, making the edits, and reconnections to the C4 director. No need to bug the dealer. Is that correct?

Thanks!


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You will have to bug the dealer to add the new dimmers in the C4 project, but this can be done remotely if you give him their Insteon Address and device type, easy. As for scene, yes you can modify your scene as you want as long as it keeps it's "controller" button number on the PLM in the scene.

[dcovach]

On 12/11/2018 at 6:05 PM, jackstone said:

V1 is just the older version that use V1 Light Proxy and does not use the proxy keypad. It'll work, but less pretty and need a bit much programming.

Unfortunately yes, you have to disconnect the PLM and use Houselinc to add more devices. You don't have to change anything on the C4 scene if you do not create new scene.

Unfortunately Houselinc doesn't want to connect to PLM modems with newer hardware and firmware versions.  I currently have a 2413S hardware version 2.4  1416.  I'm assuming 1416 is the firmware version.  I've read about some people editing the devices.xml file to accomodate the newer firmware version but it does not work for me.  I'm connecting with an FTDI serial to usb to the the PLM modem on my laptop running windows 10.  It has not gone well so far with houselinc.

[C4S]

Dan - I’ve just bought a 2413s from smarthome 2.4 0318. I have to download the new xml file and got it to work with the FTDI cable. I haven’t yet connected all my devices to the modem, but I have tested and few through houselinc and all was working well.


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[jackstone]

1 hour ago, dcovach said:

Unfortunately Houselinc doesn't want to connect to PLM modems with newer hardware and firmware versions.  I currently have a 2413S hardware version 2.4  1416.  I'm assuming 1416 is the firmware version.  I've read about some people editing the devices.xml file to accomodate the newer firmware version but it does not work for me.  I'm connecting with an FTDI serial to usb to the the PLM modem on my laptop running windows 10.  It has not gone well so far with houselinc.

Insteon is slowly killing their legacy stuff such as their nice Integration Protocol in favor of some cloud crap (like everyone else), the Hub v2,  that force you to use a mobile app, create an account, and depends on a Internet Connection just to turn on a lamp! I do not second this, that's why I do not plan to redo a new Insteon driver based on their cloud API.

[dcovach]

On 12/13/2018 at 11:30 PM, jackstone said:

Insteon is slowly killing their legacy stuff such as their nice Integration Protocol in favor of some cloud crap (like everyone else), the Hub v2,  that force you to use a mobile app, create an account, and depends on a Internet Connection just to turn on a lamp! I do not second this, that's why I do not plan to redo a new Insteon driver based on their cloud API.

Good news.  I tried a recommended usb to rs232 FTDI adapter and got a successful connection on my laptop between Houselinc and a recent 2413s modem.  Not all FTDI adapters are created equal.  I suppose the cheap ones on amazon are hit and miss.

I definitely suggest using a UC232R-10 made by Future Technology. I found it at digikey.ca at this link --->  https://www.digikey.ca/short/pc85q9