List of Equipment

[eggzlot]

39 minutes ago, rf9000 said:

Thanks. So the EA5 will allow five audio sources but will have no way to distribute  to 24 zones? Or can it act as the audio matrix with the four dummy amps? is the only reason for getting a 24x24 or 38x38 audio matrix just to allow for more sources?

On the controller topic, for my system would an EA3 be sufficient or would the EA5 be needed?

As far as the networking,I previously;y bought a Linksys 48 port POE switch and everything else was Netgear Pro. This was seven years ago though. t makes sense to go what with what my dealer recommends. eggzlot, are you a dealer?

i am not a dealer, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night.

EA5 can stream up to 5 sources (pandora, siriusxm, deezer, sharebridge (c4's version of iOS Airplay) and several others, I only use pandora and sirius plus my own FLAC files) so the idea is to stream those into a matrix that can turn those around and stream them to other locations.  Otherwise you can stream 5 individual sources to 5 rooms but not connect/join the rooms without a matrix.  You could go sonos but then you need a lot of sonos connects or connect amps and its lacking in app/driver support so for a system this size should be a nonstarter.  So without a matrix you could stream 5 sources to 5 rooms and not join the rooms.  You have 24 audio zones, so you really cannot get a matrix smaller than 24x24 if you want all sources available in all rooms.

If you have 14 TVs and want to put 10 touch screens in the house, it ain't my money, but get the Ea5 over the Ea3.  You seem to have a decent budget, I would not cut corners on the main brain for the unit.

[rf9000]

Thanks. So just the EA5 and I should be fine? No EA1s or EA3s? In my old system I have one HC800 and a HC300. Looks like I'm going to have to buy that Triad 24x24 as there doesn't seem to be any other solution out there for less money to accomplish this. Video Storm doesn't make an audio switch like this, do they? What you recommended are all video switches I think

[eggzlot]

6 minutes ago, rf9000 said:

Thanks. So just the EA5 and I should be fine? No EA1s or EA3s? In my old system I have one HC800 and a HC300. Looks like I'm going to have to buy that Triad 24x24 as there doesn't seem to be any other solution out there for less money to accomplish this. Video Storm doesn't make an audio switch like this, do they? What you recommended are all video switches I think

that 38x38 CMX is an audio switch.  same as triad in base function.  I am sure they each have their own unique selling points.  At the time the Triad version was not out and the older c4 audio matrix did not handle lip sync issues well with video distribution so I just went with the VS matrix to keep it all within the VS hardware ecosystem.

Netplay is their Video switch line, the VTX/VRX are their own line of hardware, or you can "bring your own device" and use some of their suggested 3rd party encoders/decoders that they certify to work on their platform.

EA5 then maybe 1-2 strategically placed EA1s maybe for localized IR/RS232 control and helping with zigbee mesh. That is best left up to a system designer, but you certainly do not need 14 of them.  There is a happy medium between 14 and say 1-2.  You can meet somewhere in the middle.

[LollerAgent]

20 minutes ago, rf9000 said:

Is that really the only difference between the EA-3 and EA-5? Also, I just don't see myself ever needing 24 separate source streams . Honestly, all we ever listen to is Deezer or some online service. Maybe 2 different streams/channels at one time. The most ever would be 3.  Is there a solution out there other than a 24x24 audio switch?

What about audio for your video?  You need inputs for that as well.

Do you want to ever use your local 5.1 zones to play whole home audio streams from C4?  If so, each will require an additional input on your matrix.

[neil12011]

1 hour ago, eggzlot said:

i am not a dealer, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night.

 

Bazzzzing!!

[rf9000]

Instead of the dummy amps with the Triad switch, couldn't I just do three or four C4-16AMP3 matrix amplifiers? What would be the difference between using these compared to the dummy amps with the Triad switch?

[LollerAgent]

What is the cost difference?  I would rather have dummy amps+matrix.

[eggzlot]

Dummy amps plus matrix

more flexibility in programming and adding on in the future.  

[thegreatheed]

29 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

Dummy amps plus matrix

more flexibility in programming and adding on in the future.  

And vastly better audio quality in the Triad gear.

[rf9000]

Thanks guys. The sound quality may be better going the Triad route, but is it really that noticeable for in ceiling speakers? With 24 zones already, I don’t think I would be adding any more in the future. Also, using my Dayton amps that are 60 WPC, would be half the wattage per channel then the C4-16AMP3. I think that is going to make a bigger difference in sound quality. And lastly, it will be a third of the cost. Thoughts?

[LollerAgent]

8 minutes ago, rf9000 said:

Thanks guys. The sound quality may be better going the Triad route, but is it really that noticeable for in ceiling speakers? With 24 zones already, I don’t think I would be adding any more in the future. Also, using my Dayton amps that are 60 WPC, would be half the wattage per channel then the C4-16AMP3. I think that is going to make a bigger difference in sound quality. And lastly, it will be a third of the cost. Thoughts?

I highly doubt the cost of (3) C4-16AMP3's is cheaper than 2 Dayton amps+TS-AMS24.  What price have you been quoted on each the Triad matrix and C4-16AMP3?

And no - higher "WPC" does not typically result in higher quality sound.. not to mention that the older C4 amps are notorious for having issues.

[Cyknight]

12 minutes ago, LollerAgent said:

not to mention that the older C4 amps are notorious for having issues

This is ONLY true for the older power amps, not the matrix amps of that model number.

 

1 hour ago, rf9000 said:

Instead of the dummy amps with the Triad switch, couldn't I just do three or four C4-16AMP3 matrix amplifiers? What would be the difference between using these compared to the dummy amps with the Triad switch

Mind you this won't work because you'd still need a matrix in front of it.

 

22 minutes ago, rf9000 said:

The sound quality may be better going the Triad route, but is it really that noticeable for in ceiling speakers?

Yes, but how IMPORTANT that is is up to you.

 

That said if you have two daytons, it probably makes sense to get two more and get a Triad Matrix - but keep in mind that at 24 outputs you're filling the outputs, so if you have surround zones in addition, you will want to make sure you have other ways to get audio to them (ie HDMI feed from the vido matrix, feed direct controller connections to each receiver)

[rf9000]

Thanks. I was going to say, last time I was putting together system everyone told me to get the C4-16AMP 3 amps, so they can't be that bad. Yes , I would need two more Dayton amps and the Triad switch if going that route. With the C4 amps I would just need 3 amps which I can get for about $1500 total and then I assume I would need a C4 switch (C4-16S2)? I generally agree with cleaner sound as being better sound, but it can't be said that double the wattage doesn't make a difference in sound quality.

[LollerAgent]

2 minutes ago, rf9000 said:

Thanks. I was going to say, last time I was putting together system everyone told me to get the C4-16AMP 3 amps, so they can't be that bad. Yes , I would need two more Dayton amps and the Triad switch if going that route. With the C4 amps I would just need 3 amps which I can get for about $1500 total and then I assume I would need a C4 switch (C4-16S2)? I generally agree with cleaner sound as being better sound, but it can't be said that double the wattage doesn't make a difference in sound quality.

So you are buying the C4-16AMP3's off of eBay or something? 

Again - the recommended solution here is dummy amps+matrix. 

Are you counting your local 5.1/HT zones as one of your 24 zones?

[rf9000]

I understand the recommended solution is the Triad + dummy amps. But like I said, the C4 amps with switch will cost me about $3000 less. I'm not counting any zones on my local 5.1 setups, but what would be the benefit of doing this? I always listen to music on the ceiling speakers system and just use the 5.1 systems for movies and TV.

[rf9000]

What is the difference between the C4-16S2 and the C4-16ZAMSV3? How many of each of these would I need with the three C4-16AMP3s?

[rf9000]

And if I had (4) C4-16AMP3, could I do 32 zones of audio?

[LollerAgent]

12 minutes ago, rf9000 said:

I understand the recommended solution is the Triad + dummy amps. But like I said, the C4 amps with switch will cost me about $3000 less. I'm not counting any zones on my local 5.1 setups, but what would be the benefit of doing this? I always listen to music on the ceiling speakers system and just use the 5.1 systems for movies and TV.

Because most people want to use their 5.1 zones as either a source to the WHA matrix, or to play WHA sources.

[rf9000]

If I get four C4-16AMP3 amplifiers and two C4-16ZAMSV3, would I have 32 zones of audio?

[rf9000]

Thanks to all for replying. I want to get this amp/matrix thing figured out. I had someone comment on another thread saying that using the Monoprice/Dayton amps work very well and they can be just daisy chained together. It sounds like they have the matrix built in and there is a 232 driver for them. This is kinda like my system now. I use four Russound amps that are daisy chained together for my current 24 zones of audio. I have an Extra Vegetables driver. I don't have a separate audio switch and it all works pretty good. There some limitations as every time I turn on the system it doesn't remember what volume presets were, etc. but those things are pretty minor. I turn on the Kitchen zone and select my volume, thats all I have to do.  I have an HC800 and an added HC300 for source inputs. I don't have any sources besides Deezer. I think I didn't go with the C4-16AMP3 amplifiers before because they were very expensive at the time and I don't think they can be daisy chained, but maybe I'm wrong on that. Fast forward to the present,  I assume technically now I could just buy four of these Monoprice/Dayton amps, daisy chain, and be done. I'm doing the same amount of zones again (actually would prefer like 32 zones), but trying to do it the most cost effective way where I still get plenty of power, decent sound quality, and good control. Of course I know that buying the Triad 24x24 or Video Storm 38x38 alone and using high power dummy amps would be the best. Or using one of those switches with the  Dayton dummy amps would work good. My current daisy chained Russound amps are 20WPC and I think the speakers sound pretty decent. Jumping up to 60 WPC with the Daytons would be a considerable sound difference. I don't know. At the time when I was building my previous system, most comments were that I should be buying the C4-16AMP3 amplifiers for the best possible sound, best power, ease of use, etc. I couldn't justify spending $2500 per amp x 3. I bought my four Russound amps for $300 each and they have worked flawlessly. I mentioned yesterday that I was thinking of going with the C4-16AMP3-B amplifiers this time and the replies were that the sound quality would not be there. I don't know if things have changed that must, but it is the exact opposite of what was suggested before. That confuses me. With these C4-16AMP3-b amplifiers, can they be daisy chained together? And if not, do I bypass the built in matrix of these amps and buy an external audio switch? How can I get at least 24 zones? And if doing that, which switch(s) would I need. Can the C4-16ZAMSV3 only handle 16 zones? I really will never need more than 8 sources, probably never need more than even 4 sources to distribute so that isn't an issue. I would ideally like to get up to 32 zones to be able to add my 5.1 systems in, but its not entirely necessary

[eggzlot]

With your size system buy dumb amps and a matrix switch.  C4 offers the solution under triad.  I showed you video storms matrix.  You know of other amps you mentioned.  

I’d steer clear of a combo unit matrix/amp

[rf9000]

Thank you sir. But can I ask why? It was recommended before when setting up my system to use the C4-16amp3 units. Are there complications with going that route? And can it be done to create 32 zones? Just wonder why you say to steer clear

[eggzlot]

25 minutes ago, rf9000 said:

Thank you sir. But can I ask why? It was recommended before when setting up my system to use the C4-16amp3 units. Are there complications with going that route? And can it be done to create 32 zones? Just wonder why you say to steer clear

Was your last system 24 zones?  From my experience and what I hear from others it’s better and smoother programming and operating a large system by breaking out the amps and the matrix separate.  In a smaller system under 8 zones it may not matter as much.  If you can daisy chain some 3rd party stuff with rs232 is possible

save money on buying 10 touchscreens and 14 EA1s.  But whole home audio equipment your dealer knows how to program flawlessly.  C4/triad, video storm, drayton, monoprice etc

it ain’t my money but given your scope this isn’t where I’d cheap out 

[Cyknight]

1 hour ago, eggzlot said:

by breaking out the amps and the matrix separate

Not as such, but the problem with getting multiple matrix amps is that you still need to switch all your sources and feed them to the amplifiers. Even if you were to split out each source 4 times to 4 matrix amps instead of putting a matrix in front of it, you're now putting powered splitters in, and you'r limiting yourself to 8 zources - not to mention that you can't split out controller audio outputs so you're adding a lot of controllers just to do it.

 

Just doesn't make sense.

11 hours ago, rf9000 said:

What is the difference between the C4-16S2 and the C4-16ZAMSV3? How many of each of these would I need with the three C4-16AMP3s?

Wouldn't really work either, as you're STILL splitting out sources - you shouldn't cascade switches as it will cause tracking issues.

 

Basically, for 24 zones, you'll NEED to get a triad 24x24 and 24 amplification zones - if you want more, look at something like the VideoStorm CMX.

 

You shouldn't try and 'make things work' with different equipment that just isn't suitable for the function you want - it will in the end just cost you a lot more.

[Cyknight]

12 hours ago, rf9000 said:

What is the difference between the C4-16S2 and the C4-16ZAMSV3?

Different generations, but more so the s2 only has 25 steps volume increments (vs 100)- what that means is you will want to use volume controlled amplification, making the setup more complex.

I REALLY wouldn't use it in your situation.