Video Storm vs. Just Add Power

[rf9000]

Guys,

I'm looking at these two for distributed video and wanted to get everyone's thoughts on pros and cons for these Video over IP systems. I'm leaning towards the Video Storm product just because they seem very easy to use. Its my understanding that they use the existing network switch and don't require a separate managed switch. I also like the fact that the decoders/receivers at each TV/AVR location can be a simple firestick if need be or can be a Nvidia box, which I would prefer. The JAP equipment is also very nice, but can get very costly when have to buy their receivers for 14+ TVS. Video Storm also sells IR components so that the C4 remotes can be used. You do have to buy a license for each TV at $90 a shot, but its a one time fee. My last reason for leanng towards Video Storm is because I'm also considering buying their 38x38 audio switch. Thoughts?

[poisenoire]

 I've been running Videostorm for several years and through various iterations, from the dedicated video storm decoders to now Netplay Home on some TVs. I have a mix of shields, FireTV 4k sticks and VRX020.  Also use the NAB100 and CMX switch for my distributed audio.  I highly recommend.

I have put this system in at several client locations and they have been solid.  Any issues I've had have been due to training issues on our end, not the equipment.

 

[rf9000]

I have gathered info on this since my post. Does anyone know with JAP if you can use the 2G decoders in most TV locations and then use the 3G (4K) decoders on only 3-4 main tv locations?

[Neo1738]

Note that JAP (not sure about VS) can't do true 4k@60hz only 4k@30.

[chopedogg88]

3 hours ago, rf9000 said:

I have gathered info on this since my post. Does anyone know with JAP if you can use the 2G decoders in most TV locations and then use the 3G (4K) decoders on only 3-4 main tv locations?

yes it can...I explained that when we spoke over the phone this morning but perhaps it was lost in translation.

unless I'm missing something, I don't believe that Video Storm has any 4K encoders, do they?  I only see a 4K decoder on their site.  Most of my clients are going with 4K at this point, so I'm not sure that this is a viable solution for them.

[sonic30101]

5 hours ago, chopedogg88 said:

yes it can...I explained that when we spoke over the phone this morning but perhaps it was lost in translation.

unless I'm missing something, I don't believe that Video Storm has any 4K encoders, do they?  I only see a 4K decoder on their site.  Most of my clients are going with 4K at this point, so I'm not sure that this is a viable solution for them.

I think they have 3rd party 4k encoders on their site but dont think they do 4k@60 either.

[rf9000]

Thanks guys. When I spoke with Video Storm they said that their 4K encoder was almost ready. I assume they meant 4k@60, but maybe not. I have been comparing these two and was about 100% sure on Video Storm until I read one post made by a user about how their JAP setup has never had to be reset or rebooted. I hate doing that with any electronics. They did say that Video Storm was more versatile though. But now I read above about how an installer has been using for years and has never had issues. So now after gathering all the info I can, the two setups pretty much become about equal. For the much lower cost of Video Storm, I think it is the winner. That on top of me wanting more than 24 zones of audio using their their 38x38 switch, makes it an even better choice. I don't know maybe I'm wrong. But they seem to be pretty solid systems. I just want to have no issues if that is even possible in video distribution.

I do have a question though on the decoders. I was thinking I would probably use Nvidia decoders because they seem better than the Firesticks. But maybe this is because the negative posts I read about the Firestick was that it became pixelated. I think though that this was the previous generation of Firestick before they made then much faster and 4k. What do you all think for the decoder? I assume that the Videostorm decoder would be the best but they don't really recommend those for residential use. I could still use them but they say it would be overkill. I also would like to know how this would all look when I sit down in front of my TV. I would use the C4 remote menu in the "watch" section I'm guessing and it would have all my sources listed. But what actually shows up on the TV screen? If using a Firestick does it first flash the Firestick logo? Then what after that? I'm talking about TVs that don't have the C4 menu on screen. Or if I use the Nvidia what shows up on the screen? Just curious. 

Also, say I have 5 DirectTV boxes and say there are 2 other TVs on watching DirectTV. Does the system automatically know which source to select that is not in use? Or do I have to try each source separately to find one that isn't being used?

[eggzlot]

I am a video storm guy and easily recommend it to anyone.

re: 4k@60...I have Verizon Fios, they do not even have 4k content available.  Heck some content is still 720p or 1080i.  I am not a big streaming guy but I guess maybe Netflix or Amazon Prime have some 4k@60 content but then its all streaming and compressed anyways and quality is really based on your internet connection, network and many other factors.  I dunno, call me a cynic but I also think sometimes people chase a number for better or worse.  Take a good TV in good lighting conditions and will someone really know 4k@30 vs 4k@60?  People still request to come to my house for watching the superbowl and I have an almost 10 year old Panny VT Plasma that is only 1080p?!?!?  Gosh...

I am not putting down anyone who "wants" the latest and greatest but sometimes to me there are just limits and I am ok accepting them.  If you have a true theater set up, very high quality inputs all around, physical media at the highest level, etc, then sure it may make a difference to the trained eye.  On a 50-65''' TV streaming content and sitting on the couch someone is going to say that's 30 not 60 hz? 

My first 4k TV is on order.  I plan on getting a Nvidia Shield instead of a FireTV just because it has more horsepower so should perform better per Video Storm's recommendation.  Being the Shield is on sale now it makes sense so I'll pull the trigger.  I have used VRX020 and VRX010 in the past with no issues.  I'll continue to use the VRX's with my 1080p sets and with my 1 4k TV I'll get a Shield.

I only have 2 cable boxes, we call one "Cable Box" and one "Fios Box".  since its a two family house its easy, I basically know if my wife is in the other room watching TV.  I would think via programming it could pick the next box, or if you have a family of 5, name each box, Dad DirectTV, Mom DirectTV, Kid 1 DirectTV etc and everyone watches their own box when they want to watch TV.

For me using the VRX I just do "Watch > TV" and the last channel that was watched appears on the TV. 

[chopedogg88]

Most of my customers have multiple 4K sources (Apple TV, Roku, Fire, DirecTV, Blu-Ray, etc...), so while it may not matter as much between 4k/60 vs. 4k/30, they want at least 4k...which is why I don't currently recommend VideoStorm, especially for a new house build (which is the case here)...I like to future proof unless the customer is really against it (due to cost typically).  It is not because I make more money selling JAP (as @rf9000 suggested to me was the case).  I don't understand how VideoStorm can claim that they are "miles ahead" of JAP when they don't even have a 4k transmitter?  And, being in the business of installing/maintaining these systems (for profit), I'm certainly not going to be the first to recommend their 4k encoder without it having been around and proven.

Other advantages of JAP:

-Everything sent out at native resolution and then upscaled/downscaled/HDR-enabled/HDCP version changed to whatever the display device can handle by the decoders, so every display gets the best possible resolution without hamstringing the entire system if there is a mix of 4k and non-4k displays

-PoE for receivers (no extra pieces/parts/points of failure behind TVs)

-no central controller required (extra cost / single point of failure)

-uses VLAN rather than IGMP switching, which gives instant switching between sources (no 3-5 second drop-out when switching)

-drivers for a variety of different Control systems, in case the customer decides to switch

-great customer service & support

[eggzlot]

12 minutes ago, chopedogg88 said:

Most of my customers have multiple 4K sources (Apple TV, Roku, Fire, DirecTV, Blu-Ray, etc...), so while it may not matter as much between 4k/60 vs. 4k/30, they want at least 4k...which is why I don't currently recommend VideoStorm, especially for a new house build (which is the case here)...I like to future proof unless the customer is really against it (due to cost typically).  It is not because I make more money selling JAP (as @rf9000 suggested to me was the case).  I don't understand how VideoStorm can claim that they are "miles ahead" of JAP when they don't even have a 4k transmitter?  And, being in the business of installing/maintaining these systems (for profit), I'm certainly not going to be the first to recommend their 4k encoder without it having been around and proven.

Other advantages of JAP:

-Everything sent out at native resolution and then upscaled/downscaled/HDR-enabled/HDCP version changed to whatever the display device can handle by the decoders, so every display gets the best possible resolution without hamstringing the entire system if there is a mix of 4k and non-4k displays

-PoE for receivers (no extra pieces/parts/points of failure behind TVs)

-no central controller required (extra cost / single point of failure)

-uses VLAN rather than IGMP switching, which gives instant switching between sources (no 3-5 second drop-out when switching)

-drivers for a variety of different Control systems, in case the customer decides to switch

-great customer service & support

some good points but I'd agree to disagree on a few: 

1. Video Storm has 4k transmitter that are certified to work - two different units by URay.  They are only 4k@30, one is h264 and one is h265.  They are not 4k@60 but still 4k and can be purchased and used today.  They are only $445 for the most expensive one.  Not sure how the JAP 4k transmitter prices out when comparing it to a $445 unit retail for the end client. 
2. I support a dealer model, but there is clearly margin for a dealer to sell JAP because they can sell the hardware and programming vs Video Storm which is bring your own hardware and the end client can buy the hardware and just have a dealer do the drivers/bindings.  When your client can buy these Uray devices + Nvidia Shields and they ask you to add the drivers and program, that is not as profitable for a dealer who can sell hardware and then do the bindings/programming.  Maybe the margin is $10 a unit or $100 unit, either way, there is profit being left on the table.
3. JAP requires a dedicated switch you need to buy if not mistaken and you need to purchase that Switch via Blackwire preconfigured?  Video Storm has no such requirements.  Though now looking at Blackwire's site I think its Luxul - not 100% sure if you are forced to purchase but when I looked 5 years ago you had to buy the preconfigured Cisco SG switch from Blackwire which was a turn off as I already had another Cisco SG switch with plenty of ports available to add onto the system.
4. I agree on the lack of PoE, though not true PoE you can use these devices and keep the wiring all tidy in the centralized location. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MDLUSE7/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
5. For the first 2+ years I did not have a centralized controller.  I had my least used room (Guest room) VRX running the program as the controller.  Advised or not, it worked flawlessly.  When I needed some sound correction/sync features I purchased a VRX020 to assist and then made that the controller of the system.  So just saying you may not need a separate unit as a controller though your mileage may vary.  Zero hardware failures in 5 years.
6. Video Storm has drivers for C4, RTI, Savant, Crestron, URC and then generic HEX IR Codes.  That is fairly friendly in case the user wants to switch control systems.
7. How is the customer service an advantage?  Video Storm is active on this forum daily and have not heard complaints about their service.  Even though I am an end user they have answered any email or call I've placed to them.  And they are super responsive on this forum.  I would think this is a wash?  I am sure there are many people with positive and fewer with negative experiences with both platforms.

 

I cannot comment about your first point because every TV in my house is 1080p.  I guess I'll see what happens when I add my first 4k TV but I am not expecting to get results that make me WTF.  I am fairly sure the 4k tvs will get the proper 4k content and it will be downscaled to the 1080p TVs but I could be wrong.  Since Fios has zero 4k content I am not super concerned, my Nvidia Shield will be directly connected to the 4k TV so I can stream 4k content so nothing I really need to share amongst TVs.

I am sure Video Storm is doing marketing hype to say they are ahead of JAP. Maybe on owning their own hardware they are behind - I'll give you that much.  But I think VS is heading more towards building a platform/ecosystem and letting users have their own hardware and just supplying the platform.  In that respect, I believe they had several features first - I know 5 years ago you needed a transmitter for your NVR to get cameras in JAP, not with VS - just the IP URL.  Splashtiles are unique to VS.  There were other features at the time VS had over JAP.  So maybe that is what VS is talking about being ahead of JAP - in regards to features, not hardware.  Hardware yes, JAP has the edge in that category.

[Cyknight]

8 hours ago, eggzlot said:

JAP requires a dedicated switch you need to buy if not mistaken and you need to purchase that Switch via Blackwire preconfigured?  Video Storm has no such requirements.  Though now looking at Blackwire's site I think its Luxul - not 100% sure if you are forced to purchase but when I looked 5 years ago you had to buy the preconfigured Cisco SG switch from Blackwire which was a turn off as I already had another Cisco SG switch with plenty of ports available to add onto the system.

You NEVER HAD to buy a switch via Blackwire. Blackwire has it's own drivers for some setups, but JAP has their own driver as well. Blackwire OFFERS preconfigured systems for a very reasonable price, but it is not a MUST.

Yes JAP requires a managed switch (though using the JAP driver you can use additional outputs if you so desire). And yes that DOES limityou to certain brands as well. That said, while JAP doesn't REQURE a dedicated switch, it certainly would be advisable to keep all that traffic seperated.

 

8 hours ago, eggzlot said:

How is the customer service an advantage?  Video Storm is active on this forum daily and have not heard complaints about their service.  Even though I am an end user they have answered any email or call I've placed to them.  And they are super responsive on this forum.  I would think this is a wash?  I am sure there are many people with positive and fewer with negative experiences with both platforms.

VideoStorm has GREAT customer service, JAP and Blackwire truly excel at it though. but it wouldn't be a breaking point in any considerations here.

 

The whole 'you can use a fireTV' thing is a wash really - you can easily argue in both directions with full validity. Yes it makes it easy, but also yes, there's risk involved in depending on third (fourth?) party devices that are outside of your control.

 

Me, I'll go with JAP. VideoStorm's delay would drive me nutz in switching and device control vs visible response. That said, while JAP is a fantastic product, for the same reason I personally prefer HDBaseT over IP - but Video over IP modular options do make it a close call.

[eggzlot]

8 hours ago, Cyknight said:

You NEVER HAD to buy a switch via Blackwire. Blackwire has it's own drivers for some setups, but JAP has their own driver as well. Blackwire OFFERS preconfigured systems for a very reasonable price, but it is not a MUST.

Yes JAP requires a managed switch (though using the JAP driver you can use additional outputs if you so desire). And yes that DOES limityou to certain brands as well. That said, while JAP doesn't REQURE a dedicated switch, it certainly would be advisable to keep all that traffic seperated.

 

VideoStorm has GREAT customer service, JAP and Blackwire truly excel at it though. but it wouldn't be a breaking point in any considerations here.

 

The whole 'you can use a fireTV' thing is a wash really - you can easily argue in both directions with full validity. Yes it makes it easy, but also yes, there's risk involved in depending on third (fourth?) party devices that are outside of your control.

 

Me, I'll go with JAP. VideoStorm's delay would drive me nutz in switching and device control vs visible response. That said, while JAP is a fantastic product, for the same reason I personally prefer HDBaseT over IP - but Video over IP modular options do make it a close call.

Fair on not buying the switch - like I said I remember 5 years ago they were selling Cisco SG Switches, I already had one but my dealer (fairly reputable from this forum) suggested I get their pre loaded one.  Either way, its another cost/concern needing a managed switch whereas C4 usually suggests not getting managed switch (ducks waiting for people to go nuts here).

Any device can fail, JAP or FireTV.  There was a thread yesterday about C4/Leaf Balun's having known issues.  Cut out the extra hardware, get an Android TV (Sony/sharp) and hardware is even needed, just 1 ethernet cable for VS!

Switching and device control?  When I switch inputs/devices yes there is a 2-3 second lag sometimes but I am also not heavily switching between a cable box and FireTV and Apple TV and Roku and outdoor cameras.  I guess different people have different uses.  As far as channel surfing, it was brought to my attention that VS has a XXX millisecond delay when you press a button to get it to execute.  since i knew that, that for the first week or two I thought I noticed it and it annoyed me.  5 years later its just normal.  I've had guests sleep over, watch my house, etc and no one ever said hey your channels change oddly, you may want to look into it.  knowing its there yeah I guess you see/feel it, but if you didn't know it doesn't really translate into an issue.  My Wife is my biggest critic when I comes to my tech hobby.  She hated the original door station from day 1 and that is all I ever heard about.  Well other things too :-).  Video Storm passes her sniff test because she never complains about anything TV related and even enjoys some of the features she realizes she misses as we are living with my inlaws while we do renovations on our house.  Prior to VS we had a Monoprice Matrix system and I got calls all the time because it was not working.  Not the case with VS.  If the delays were that annoying trust me, I would have heard about it from her after 5 years!

I've said it several times on several different threads about these topics and others - find a good dealer.  Tell them what you need, and what would be a dream/nice to have.  See their quotes, see if its in your budget.  Ask for references, talk to references, then jump in.  If a dealer says he/she can do anything you need for a budget you like and they spec JAP then fine.  You really will sleep fine at night with either system.  You are likely over analyzing as most of us are guilty of doing here on these forums.

[zaphod]

18 hours ago, chopedogg88 said:

Most of my customers have multiple 4K sources (Apple TV, Roku, Fire, DirecTV, Blu-Ray, etc...), so while it may not matter as much between 4k/60 vs. 4k/30, they want at least 4k...which is why I don't currently recommend VideoStorm, especially for a new house build (which is the case here)...I like to future proof unless the customer is really against it (due to cost typically).  It is not because I make more money selling JAP (as @rf9000 suggested to me was the case).  I don't understand how VideoStorm can claim that they are "miles ahead" of JAP when they don't even have a 4k transmitter?  And, being in the business of installing/maintaining these systems (for profit), I'm certainly not going to be the first to recommend their 4k encoder without it having been around and proven.

But aren't Apple TV and Roku irrelevant if you have a VS system with an Android TV device located locally (or even built in to the TV).  Then you only need encoders for BluRay and satellite/cable, and I have to think very few folks will care about BluRay going forward.  That leaves Sat/Cable and many folks don't even have 4K content or boxes.

[Cyknight]

1 hour ago, eggzlot said:

I already had one but my dealer (fairly reputable from this forum) suggested I get their pre loaded one. 

Suggested doesn't mean have to.

 

1 hour ago, eggzlot said:

needing a managed switch whereas C4 usually suggests not getting managed switch (ducks waiting for people to go nuts here)

In the case of the blackwire driver, the switch isn't part of any other network, in case of the JAP driver, their own setup program for the switch takes care of isolating the unit with all the right settings.

1 hour ago, eggzlot said:

Any device can fail, JAP or FireTV.

I'm more talking about software changes here, not hardware failure

 

[mindedc1]

One thing I saw, the Video Storm drivers seem to be more focused on Amazon Fire TV than shield. I have a shield and I had to write a bunch of mini driver strings because the majority of the current mini drivers from Video Storm are geared towards the Fire TV vs shield and the QLAUNCH strings change from time to time.

I'm not saying they're not supporting Shield or that it won't/doesnt work because it works beautifully, they do seem to be prioritizing support for fire products though. You may get better support down the road with fire devices.

There is also a super cool feature where you can detect when the Shield/Fire TV is playing video. In my home theater I have those state changes mapped to play/pause lighting scenes. Super cool! The only downside is netflix live previews count as playing video....

[rf9000]

Thanks guys for the responses. I do have a question though, if I had 14-15 TVS, would I technically have to get 14-15 SR-260 remotes for each room?

[rf9000]

Also, I'm buying all new TVs for this home. Yes, so I have to buy 14-15 new TVs. I will be buying a few OLEDs mixed with the rest being 4k. Should I just buy all Sony TVs to make integrating Video Storm simple? Could I just get buy with using the TV remotes then instead of integrating and using Control4 remotes? Forgive me though if these questions sound stupid, but how much control would I have just using the Sony TV menus? I have never used before. Are they inconvenient and a hassle to use? Or are they easy and quick to access? Would I be able to access my cameras on screen fast and easy? What else could I all access just using the TV remotes? Also, for those TVs where I will have localized AVR equipment, would the turning on the TV trigger turning on the AVR equipment? I do not want to have multiple remotes. If I'm using the TV as my decoder, would I have to use the video out then to the AVR? Furthermore, if I then wanted to use that particular AVR as a source for my audio matrix, how would I get that signal back to my audio matrix box? Just need some clarification on wiring for this so I can understand it in my head.

[LollerAgent]

If you are using your TV as the decoder, HDMI ARC will ensure that audio return gets back to your AVR.  To pipe your local AVR into your matrix, just use an available CAT6 run and attach a couple of cheap stereo baluns.

[chopedogg88]

On 12/13/2018 at 7:47 AM, zaphod said:

But aren't Apple TV and Roku irrelevant if you have a VS system with an Android TV device located locally (or even built in to the TV).  Then you only need encoders for BluRay and satellite/cable, and I have to think very few folks will care about BluRay going forward.  That leaves Sat/Cable and many folks don't even have 4K content or boxes.

Not if your customer is an Apple household and/or prefers Apple TV (for what could be a variety of reasons).  If you view all devices as the same thing (just ways to watch Netflix and Amazon Prime?), then I suppose you could make that argument.  Also if you want the audio to play out of speakers other than the TV speakers, then the plot thickens.  You'd need to feed the audio back to the audio matrix switch in the rack...not too difficult if you have stereo audio and an extra cat5/6, but newer TV's that I've been installing don't even have stereo audio outputs anymore...only digital optical.  Before you know it, you end up with a mess of power strips, power supplies, converters, etc stuffed behind the TV to make it all work (oh and of course more points of failure).

I think if you are a DIYer, A/V/techie type, then perhaps Video Storm could make sense if you don't mind maintaining it all.  From the perspective of someone who wants to install the system and have it run flawlessly without getting service call requests, it is a risky proposition in my opinion.