Amplifier, receiver and matrix products

[BlueCell]

Hi there,

I'm fairly new to this all. I was wondering what are the differences between all the amplifier, receiver and matrix products from C4, but also from others like Marantz?

I see that there are the following amplifiers and receivers available from C4:

• 4-Zone Power Amplifier (C4-AMP104)
• 8-Zone Power Amplifier (C4-AMP108)
• 4-Zone Matrix Amplifier (C4-8AMP1-B)
• 8-Zone Matrix Amplifier (C4-16AMP3-B)

Other than being either 4 or 8-zones, what are the differences between a Power amplifier and a Matrix amplifier? Is it mainly that the Matrix amplifier can also route inputs to different outputs (zones)? Btw, the title of that page say "Amplifier and receivers", but they are all amplifiers?

Furthermore, I also see there is the following product:

• Audio Matrix Switch (C4-16ZAMSV3-B)

Can I say that you'll buy such a matrix switch, if you need more than 8 zones? In which one would buy two 8-zone power amplifiers and put the (16x16) matrix switch behind those to route inputs to different outputs/zones? Why would one ever buy the 4-zone power amplifier? I can imagine people being the 4-zone matrix amplifier if you only need 4 zones.

Moreover, how does a receiver like that of a 3rd party brand fit into here, for example Marantz SR6012? Do we only use such a receiver for home theater purposes, because it has 5.1/7.1/etc? Does this mean that the amplifiers and matrix only provide stereo sound? 

Also, where do we put the 3rd party receiver? Say, we have an Apple TV for playing movies and we would like to have 5.1 sound in the living room, but also play from the same device in a different room, how do we route everything? Should the Apple TV go directly in the Matrix Amplifier, and from there on to the Marantz receiver (one zone) and to the other room (second zone)?

Finally, what do the Control4 AV Matrix Switches do? From I understand, they do both HDMI routing and audio routing, right?

Thnx for helping out a newbie

[BlueCell]

11 hours ago, eggzlot said:

If you go 8 zone matrix amp you are limited to 8 zones and 8 sources.  If you got a 16x16 switch and 8 zone dummy/power amp you could share 16 sources to 8 different zones.  And still add up to another 8 listening zones if needed.  If you will never have more than 8 listening zones and never more than 8 sources the 8 zone matrix amp may be the best best for you.

Mmm... do you put the 8x8 power amp before or after the 16x16 matrix switch? Or doesn't it matter?

[BlueCell]

12 hours ago, Matt Lowe said:

Video storm also makes an awesome audio switch with analog, toslink, digital coax in and outs with the ability to convert.

You mean this one: http://www.video-storm.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CMX1616A2 ?

[eggzlot]

2 hours ago, BlueCell said:

Mmm... do you put the 8x8 power amp before or after the 16x16 matrix switch? Or doesn't it matter?

Sits between.  Source - rca cables into input on matrix.  Power amp - rca cables into output on matrix. 

[BlueCell]

1 hour ago, eggzlot said:

Sits between.  Source - rca cables into input on matrix.  Power amp - rca cables into output on matrix. 

Yeah, I meant looking from source to speakers.

Source -> cable -> Matrix -> cable -> Power Amp -> cable -> speaker.

I wonder why we cannot do:

Source -> cable -> Power Amp -> cable -> Matrix -> cable -> speaker.

[sonic30101]

 

58 minutes ago, BlueCell said:

Source -> cable -> Matrix -> cable -> Power Amp -> cable -> speaker.

 

amp after matrix since the matrix is only rca output which cant run a speaker. also the matrix can feed the sources to a surround sound AVR

[BlueCell]

21 hours ago, sonic30101 said:

also some of the hdmi matrices will give you analog audio breakouts (Some with downmixing) to feed an analog matrix or zone amp to help with devices that do not have rca audio outputs

Which HDMI matrix would you recommend? I got a quote for the Control4® 4K Ultra HD 8x8 AV Matrix Switch with Audio Downmixing (C4-LU862D) of EURO 9,250.00. Is a bit too expensive for my taste. I have a different quote that says I could also go for the Control4 16x16 Audio Switch along side with an Pulse Eight neo:Modula 8x8 HDMI matrix (https://www.pulse-eight.com/p/181/neo-modular). What do you think is the wiser choice?

[sonic30101]

I have not worked with any pulse eight gear. What sources are you looking to use? Number of total audio zones? The second does have the benefit of giving you additional inputs if your system needs it, but the c4 matrix is probably going to be better since it downmixes the audio without extractors which you may have to purchase in addition since the Pulse Eight doesnt have any analog outputs. As well as it seems to sent 4k over a longer distance. Need more info on your particular needs before I can give you a suggestion since there are more than 1 way to skin the cat.

[Cyknight]

8 minutes ago, BlueCell said:

Which HDMI matrix would you recommend? I got a quote for the Control4® 4K Ultra HD 8x8 AV Matrix Switch with Audio Downmixing (C4-LU862D) of EURO 9,250.00. Is a bit too expensive for my taste. I have a different quote that says I could also go for the Control4 16x16 Audio Switch along side with an Pulse Eight neo:Modula 8x8 HDMI matrix (https://www.pulse-eight.com/p/181/neo-modular). What do you think is the wiser choice?

IF you go with the C4 HDMI, you will retain surround sound for the receiver, in addition you can use the poweramp and forego the audio matrix (based on the info you've provided).

It may be expensive for your taste - but if your taste is to have a well working central system ... cheap never works out.

BECAUSE you can save on a matrix (assuming 8 sources is all you want for audio as well as video) - the C4 HDMI switch would seem like the perfect fit for your system. Again, this is judging from what little info we have from you.

[Elvis]

36 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

It may be expensive for your taste - but if your taste is to have a well working central system ... cheap never works out.

Sage advice.

Make sure you do the math. With so many sources having HDMI only output, you might not be spending too much more in the long run. From my perspective as an end user, it is best to know the "best solution" or what you want in the long run. Then if you can't afford it all now, you won't waste money buying equipment that will be useless later when you upgrade.

As far as the matrix amps go, the built-in matrix only works with its own internal amps. Not your additional a/v receivers. So every input that goes into your 8 zone matrix amplifier must be duplicated somehow to feed the zones powered by AV receivers. 

Good luck and don't rush.

[eggzlot]

It is likely best to have a discussion with your installer or list more details here on the forum.  What sources (audio and video) are you looking to distribute and to how many locations?  5.1 type set ups or all stereo?  

IP based solutions is another option - Matt referenced Video Storm and I know we are both fans.  There is also Just Add Power (JAP) and 1-2 others as well that distribute video via an IP based system.  Its not a Fixed AxB matrix per se.  Its a lot more modular and you can grow it easier over time.  I've had 4 tvs for a few years but with a new renovation coming up I am going up to 7 total tvs.  So it is nice that when I purchased my Video storm system I only needed to buy 4 baluns for 4 tvs and now that I want to add 3 more I just need to purchase 3 more.  If I was stuck with a 4x4 or a 6x6 I'd be swapping out the entire switch.

[eggzlot]

20 minutes ago, BlueCell said:

Hi there,

I'm fairly new to this all. I was wondering what are the differences between all the amplifier, receiver and matrix products from C4, but also from others like Marantz?

I see that there are the following amplifiers and receivers available from C4:

• 4-Zone Power Amplifier (C4-AMP104)
• 8-Zone Power Amplifier (C4-AMP108)
• 4-Zone Matrix Amplifier (C4-8AMP1-B)
• 8-Zone Matrix Amplifier (C4-16AMP3-B)

Other than being either 4 or 8-zones, what are the differences between a Power amplifier and a Matrix amplifier? Is it mainly that the Matrix amplifier can also route inputs to different outputs (zones)? Btw, the title of that page say "Amplifier and receivers", but they are all amplifiers?

Furthermore, I also see there is the following product:

• Audio Matrix Switch (C4-16ZAMSV3-B)

Can I say that you'll buy such a matrix switch, if you need more than 8 zones? In which one would buy two 8-zone power amplifiers and put the (16x16) matrix switch behind those to route inputs to different outputs/zones? Why would one ever buy the 4-zone power amplifier? I can imagine people being the 4-zone matrix amplifier if you only need 4 zones.

Moreover, how does a receiver like that of a 3rd party brand fit into here, for example Marantz SR6012? Do we only use such a receiver for home theater purposes, because it has 5.1/7.1/etc? Does this mean that the amplifiers and matrix only provide stereo sound? 

Also, where do we put the 3rd party receiver? Say, we have an Apple TV for playing movies and we would like to have 5.1 sound in the living room, but also play from the same device in a different room, how do we route everything? Should the Apple TV go directly in the Matrix Amplifier, and from there on to the Marantz receiver (one zone) and to the other room (second zone)?

Finally, what do the Control4 AV Matrix Switches do? From I understand, they do both HDMI routing and audio routing, right?

Thnx for helping out a newbie

Power amp (4 or 8 zone) is just a dumb amp if you will.  So you would pair those amps with the Audio Matrix Switch.  This set up gives you the most flexibility and options since you can take 16 inputs (sources of audio) and output it to 16 zones.   So to max out this set up you would get the Audio matrix switch and 2 x 8 zone power amp

The Matrix amp has a matrix built into the amp but it is limiting because the 4 zone matrix amp can only take 4-6 sources to 4 outputs/zones and the 8 zone lets you get up to 8 sources sent to 8 audio zones.  So for growth the "dumb amp + matrix" gives you more options to grow and scale.

Once you start getting into AVR receivers a lot depends on your set up and use case.  But you are  correct those are really only needed if you need 2.1 or greater in a given room.  If you just want stereo audio without Dolby codecs and stuff you do not need an AVR.

The AV Matrix Switch is likely the HDMI distribution switch?  You can put all of your HDMI products centrally located (cable boxes, apple tvs, blu ray, roku, etc) and share those sources with TVs around the house.

[BlueCell]

4 hours ago, sonic30101 said:

I have not worked with any pulse eight gear. What sources are you looking to use? Number of total audio zones? The second does have the benefit of giving you additional inputs if your system needs it, but the c4 matrix is probably going to be better since it downmixes the audio without extractors which you may have to purchase in addition since the Pulse Eight doesnt have any analog outputs. As well as it seems to sent 4k over a longer distance. Need more info on your particular needs before I can give you a suggestion since there are more than 1 way to skin the cat.

Ah yes, I understand it is difficult to help people without a lot of details. So here is some more detail:

 

That's what I currently have drawn.

So one location (living room) with 5.1 (or probably adding extra ceiling speakers for Dolby Atmos), the rest are all stereo (mostly ceiling speakers). I don't think I need that much distance. For the sources, I think I will have two Apple TV's (probably the upcoming 4K ones if they release it this year, otherwise a different Kodi player), and two tv boxes.

Did I draw the amplifiers, matrices and receivers currently? I have no idea yet on how to hook up the Apple TV's and TV boxes to the 16x16 audio matrix, as they probably only have HDMI out.

And thanks everybody for helping me out so far  really nice community here!

[sonic30101]

Next question what is ran to each tv or are we in the planning stage? What tvs are you trying to use? (Using smart functions? if so you will need one with audio out to home run back to audio matrix). Will there be C4 controllers at each tv for on screen navigator? I see 2 8 zone amps in the drawing which may not be needed since i only see 8 stereo zones. More than likely you will be putting in hdmi audio extractors to get the audio signal to the audio matrix for the audio only zones unless you go with a 10x10 with downmixing 

[Home Theater Advisors]

Those of who do more distributed video, Correct me if I'm wrong (we're in NYC And do mostly 2-3 bedroom apartments with 2-3 TVs so often distributed video isn't that beneficial), but the C4 HMDI matrices also act as audio matrices, with audio inputs and outputs. So depending on how many audio sources you have, you may not need the 16x16 audio matrix, just the HDMI matrix and the power amps.

[thecodeman]

20 minutes ago, Home Theater Advisors said:

Those of who do more distributed video, Correct me if I'm wrong (we're in NYC And do mostly 2-3 bedroom apartments with 2-3 TVs so often distributed video isn't that beneficial), but the C4 HMDI matrices also act as audio matrices, with audio inputs and outputs. So depending on how many audio sources you have, you may not need the 16x16 audio matrix, just the HDMI matrix and the power amps.

The LU10802D, for example, does not have stereo audio inputs if you need them. You get audio from the HDMI and SPDIF (digital coax) inputs, and then audio is sent out either over HDMI or the stereo L/R RCA jacks to go to the power amps as you describe. If there isn't a need for matrixed distributed stereo audio in the project - usually for secondary audio streams out of a controller or audio-centric sources like a SONOS connect, or Fusion Duet streamer, you'll be ok.

[Home Theater Advisors]

The LU10802D, for example, does not have stereo audio inputs if you need them. You get audio from the HDMI and SPDIF (digital coax) inputs, and then audio is sent out either over HDMI or the stereo L/R RCA jacks to go to the power amps as you describe. If there isn't a need for matrixed distributed stereo audio in the project - usually for secondary audio streams out of a controller or audio-centric sources like a SONOS connect, or Fusion Duet streamer, you'll be ok.

True, it is SPDIF coax only, but you can use the digital audio streams out of EA controllers and put of sonos for this. You can also use some outboard, inexpensive DACs if necessary - you'll need bi-directional - actual an ADC - analog to digital converter

[BlueCell]

11 hours ago, sonic30101 said:

Next question what is ran to each tv or are we in the planning stage? What tvs are you trying to use? (Using smart functions? if so you will need one with audio out to home run back to audio matrix). Will there be C4 controllers at each tv for on screen navigator? I see 2 8 zone amps in the drawing which may not be needed since i only see 8 stereo zones. More than likely you will be putting in hdmi audio extractors to get the audio signal to the audio matrix for the audio only zones unless you go with a 10x10 with downmixing 

Yeah, in the planning stage. House is currently being build. I like my TV's to be as dumb as possible and use dedicated smart clients for that. I don't need any C4 controllers at each TV, I guess, but will add some EA1's for the zigbee mesh. 

You are correct on the second 8 zone amp... I had this as optional, but forgot it to include in this drawing  This setup does seem to fit my needs best I think, doesn't it? I'm sure I won't add more TV's than these... I'll probably even drop some TV's. So the C4 matrices with HDMI and audio doesn't make sense, because for most of the outputs I won't be using the HDMI at all, right?

[BlueCell]

16 hours ago, Cyknight said:

IF you go with the C4 HDMI, you will retain surround sound for the receiver, in addition you can use the poweramp and forego the audio matrix (based on the info you've provided).

It may be expensive for your taste - but if your taste is to have a well working central system ... cheap never works out.

BECAUSE you can save on a matrix (assuming 8 sources is all you want for audio as well as video) - the C4 HDMI switch would seem like the perfect fit for your system. Again, this is judging from what little info we have from you.

I know you are right, though it is still a lot of money, especially in the situation of building a new home altogether (so many other stuff to pay). I do want to understand how everything works myself, especially those little things on retaining surround sound and such. I've decided on not doing it cheap. Instead, I'll be skipping some floors/rooms and adding it later.

Could you enlighten us (or just me haha) with why the C4 HDMI retains surround sound. I don't really get it yet

Do you have any other tips like those that we should think of?

[sonic30101]

also some of the hdmi matrices will give you analog audio breakouts (Some with downmixing) to feed an analog matrix or zone amp to help with devices that do not have rca audio outputs

[Cyknight]

4 hours ago, BlueCell said:

though it is still a lot of money, especially in the situation of building a new home altogether

While you could view it this way, you can also view is as a pretty minor investment for the house as a whole.

4 hours ago, BlueCell said:

Could you enlighten us (or just me haha) with why the C4 HDMI retains surround sound.

Unlike most hdmi switches, the C4/Leaf "D" series can extract stereo audio from a surround feed - others (if they have stereo outputs at all) can extract analogue stereo, but it will require the source to be at stereo to work - this is also true for most single hdmi audio extractors and digital audio converters. So, for your AppleTVs for example, you'll have to pay a large premium to get HDMI audio extractors (as they're likely to ONLY have an HDMI out) - it can be done for sure, but it's money you COULD have spent on the switch instead having this all built in (and much cleaner.

To add to that, the C4 unit has a locking feature which can be used to by-pass the issue most other switches have which is that the lowest denominator rules - so if you have even one 720p TV that can't do surround sound - all TVs and sources must operate at 720p and stereo. And no C4 isn't the only one - but these sort of functions don't come cheap.

[thecodeman]

Zektor has a nice 8x8x16 hdmi/audio matrix that will do 5.1 dolby downmixing off the hdmi to the stereo outputs as well.  Local mirrored HDMIs are a plus too, if you have a surround zone where the receiver is in the rack, you can use the CAT output to send video to the display and the mirrored hdmi to go to the receiver for audio. They also have some spiffy baluns to go with it

 

http://www.zektor.com/wp/product/palladia-4k/

http://www.zektor.com/wp/product/solocat-hd-max-100m/

 

[Cyknight]

2 hours ago, eggzlot said:

The AV Matrix Switch is likely the HDMI distribution switch?  You can put all of your HDMI products centrally located (cable boxes, apple tvs, blu ray, roku, etc) and share those sources with TVs around the house.

And in case of C4's - they do indeed have stereo breakout from those sources to feed the amps/audio matrix (very handy for sources that do not have stereo outputs, such as AppleTV) - they also allow sync control to keep audio and video in sync - and the downmixing ones allow you to keep your surround sound for 3rd party surround receivers (feed via HDMI)

[Matt Lowe]

Video storm also makes an awesome audio switch with analog, toslink, digital coax in and outs with the ability to convert.

[BlueCell]

3 hours ago, eggzlot said:

Power amp (4 or 8 zone) is just a dumb amp if you will.  So you would pair those amps with the Audio Matrix Switch.  This set up gives you the most flexibility and options since you can take 16 inputs (sources of audio) and output it to 16 zones.   So to max out this set up you would get the Audio matrix switch and 2 x 8 zone power amp

The Matrix amp has a matrix built into the amp but it is limiting because the 4 zone matrix amp can only take 4-6 sources to 4 outputs/zones and the 8 zone lets you get up to 8 sources sent to 8 audio zones.  So for growth the "dumb amp + matrix" gives you more options to grow and scale.

Once you start getting into AVR receivers a lot depends on your set up and use case.  But you are  correct those are really only needed if you need 2.1 or greater in a given room.  If you just want stereo audio without Dolby codecs and stuff you do not need an AVR.

The AV Matrix Switch is likely the HDMI distribution switch?  You can put all of your HDMI products centrally located (cable boxes, apple tvs, blu ray, roku, etc) and share those sources with TVs around the house.

Ah, I see! I don't think I have more than 8 zones, so I guess budget-wise I should get the 8 zone matrix amp, right? I don't think the 8 zone power amp with the audio matrix is cheaper or is it? I do understand now that if I might have more than 8 zones, getting the 8 zone power amp with the audio matrix now, and when I hit the limit add another 8 zone power is the most flexible one.

The AV matrix switch I'm referring to is indeed the HDMI distribution switch. When I look at the products page I see the 8x8 HDMI switch, which only does HDMI, but also the AV HDMI switches, which seem to route to RCA audio outputs. In the case of the AV HDMI switch, I don't need the audio matrix switch but I do need the power amp, right? In that case, wouldn't the 8x8 AV HDMI switch together with the 8 zone power amp be the best option? 

 

[eggzlot]

21 minutes ago, BlueCell said:

Ah, I see! I don't think I have more than 8 zones, so I guess budget-wise I should get the 8 zone matrix amp, right? I don't think the 8 zone power amp with the audio matrix is cheaper or is it? I do understand now that if I might have more than 8 zones, getting the 8 zone power amp with the audio matrix now, and when I hit the limit add another 8 zone power is the most flexible one.

The AV matrix switch I'm referring to is indeed the HDMI distribution switch. When I look at the products page I see the 8x8 HDMI switch, which only does HDMI, but also the AV HDMI switches, which seem to route to RCA audio outputs. In the case of the AV HDMI switch, I don't need the audio matrix switch but I do need the power amp, right? In that case, wouldn't the 8x8 AV HDMI switch together with the 8 zone power amp be the best option? 

 

Its been a while since I've been in the market so I do not know the MSRP prices that well.  That being said, in a week or so I'll be selling my C4 16x16 audio matrix (used - perfectly fine condition).  Keep an eye on the For Sale forum on this site.

If you go 8 zone matrix amp you are limited to 8 zones and 8 sources.  If you got a 16x16 switch and 8 zone dummy/power amp you could share 16 sources to 8 different zones.  And still add up to another 8 listening zones if needed.  If you will never have more than 8 listening zones and never more than 8 sources the 8 zone matrix amp may be the best best for you.

Outputs do add up.  I am "old school" but I have a hifi system with a tuner, dual tape deck and record player then more modern stuff such as a few sonos connects, 2 cable boxes, blu ray player, some streaming devices and a few other devices as sound inputs into the matrix.  Everyone's use will vary.