dinosaur Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 My regular, old-fashioned garage door push button is normally open. My dealer and I tested it with a multi-tester because we got unexpected results when adding the HC500 relay.Yet, when my dealer connected another pair of wires (in parallel) from the motor to the relay on the HC500 (using OM and O), it disabled the old button.Can't figure this out so for the heck of it we experimented and moved the wires to OM and C on the HC500. With that wiring scheme the old button is operational and the TOGGLE command works in C4.We're scratching our heads. (again, we tested the old button and it's Normally Open and we wired the HC500 relay in parallel - we put the new wire pair from the HC500 directly into the motor by twisting the old wires from the button with the new wires from the 500)Can someone explain this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 What's the OM terminal on an HC500? I've only heard of NO/NC/COM for relay connections.I look on the back of a picture of the 500, I see no 'OM'.Typically, a garage door button would be connected in parallel with the old button, with one of the button terminals going to the 'COM' (common) terminal, the other to the 'NO' (Normally Open) terminal.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinosaur Posted May 16, 2009 Author Share Posted May 16, 2009 What's the OM terminal on an HC500? I've only heard of NO/NC/COM for relay connections.I look on the back of a picture of the 500, I see no 'OM'.Typically, a garage door button would be connected in parallel with the old button, with one of the button terminals going to the 'COM' (common) terminal, the other to the 'NO' (Normally Open) terminal.RyanEThe way the bank of terminals is mounted on the back of my HC500 it obsures the first letter of each label. What shows is OM, C, O.....What is covered must be Com, Nc, No.....I didn't realize that until RyanE's post.No matter though because the confusion still exists. Using COM and NO will disable my garage door switch but using COM and NC allows the garage door switch to operate and also the TOGGLE command in C4.Can't understand that because we tested the garage door button and it is NO.The HC500 is connected in parallel so this is not making sense to me or the dealer. I'm trying to understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henniae Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 Check the "Invert Relay" in Composer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinosaur Posted May 16, 2009 Author Share Posted May 16, 2009 Check the "Invert Relay" in Composer.It is unchecked and we left it that way through all the back and forth experimenting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 It actually sounds like it's hooked up serially, not in parallel with the other NO switch.If that's truly not the case, I would check to make sure it's *really* just a switch, not a lighted switch, etc. which can have some electronics in it.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinosaur Posted May 16, 2009 Author Share Posted May 16, 2009 interesting.....I have 3 garage doors. All the same hardware (motors, and yes, lighted switches!).They are behaving differently from each other when connected the same way to the HC500. It's driving my dealer nuts!One of them works with NO connectins, one of them works with NC connections, and the other is not working!!RyanE, you might have hit the nail on the head! But they are in parallel according to my dealer.The wires going to the HC500 relays are twisted with the wires from the (lighted) switch and then inserted into the motor terminals. That is parallel, isn't it?EDIT:After some troubleshooting it turns out that one of the relays on the HC500 is DOA! However, that relay is not the one that prompted the original post. I think that RyanE is on to something when he mentioned that the switches are lighted and probably are the cause of the behavior.Question: With the lighted buttons, is it still possible to use C4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 Here is how mine we're hooked up. I have lighted buttons, and have wires ran from the motor direct to my C4 controller. On the motor are red and white terminals. The wire hooked to the red terminal on the motor is hooked to the NO part of the relay. The wire hooked to the white terminal is hooked to com. Works like a champ. The only thing I can think of is you have the wires inconsistently hooked to the motor. NO must be hooked to the correct terminal on the door. Have you double checked that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 That's how I have mine run.I have the lighted buttons on the wall by the door into the house. No C4 wiring to there.I have some 'doorbell' buttons by the garage doors, wired up to the motors.I have Control4 wiring going to the motors, completely separate from the wires to the 'doorbell' buttons.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinosaur Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 Thanks everyone. Here's the outcome:With all the help here,(ILoveC4+RyanE), my dealer and I worked it out.The buttons do have electronics for LOCK and LIGHT (Liftmaster buttons) but we ran the relays in parallel and it works fine.We ran into these problems which were not detected early on:2 of the 3 magnetic contacts were malfunctioning (never closed even near the magnet).Relay #3 on my HC500 is DOA. (we ended up using #1,2,4)It was a crazy few hours but the lesson is that Murphy's Law applies and never take ANYTHING for granted.A simple magnetic switch can malfunction. I have 3 of them and 2 were malfunctioning.What is most disappointing is that Relay#3 on the HC500 is DOA. Disappointed in C4 quality control.Thanks again everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFUG Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 ^I don't know about your relay but I encountered a dimmer with incorrectly drilled trim plate holes (too small). What the hell kinda QC is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Control4 *does* have good QC procedures, despite your having an issue with your HC500.Devices are tested both during manufacture as well as by Control4 before shipping out, and yours is the first case of a bad relay on an HC500 that I've heard of (of course, I'm in software, so that may not be saying that much).If it truly is a bad relay, the unit should be sent in as an RMA. Yes, it's a pain to have to wait for the replacement, but if you don't, Control4 doesn't know about that unit, and you're part of the problem, not part of the solution.Sorry you had issues with it.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinosaur Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 Control4 *does* have good QC procedures, despite your having an issue with your HC500.Devices are tested both during manufacture as well as by Control4 before shipping out, and yours is the first case of a bad relay on an HC500 that I've heard of (of course, I'm in software, so that may not be saying that much).If it truly is a bad relay, the unit should be sent in as an RMA. Yes, it's a pain to have to wait for the replacement, but if you don't, Control4 doesn't know about that unit, and you're part of the problem, not part of the solution.Sorry you had issues with it.RyanEThanks for your comments, RyanE.A couple of things to note:1. The HC500 is over 1 year old. My project has been an ongoing effort and we just got around to using the relays and contacts on the unit. I don't know whether it is eligible for RMA.2. My house is now very C4 dependent and being without the HC500 is not a trivial issue at this point. Many programmed and binded keypads, 4 thermostats, all TVs, all music, security, etc..If I were to receive a loaner HC500 that could be installed before sending out my HC500 then that would be a reasonable solution otherwise, with one bad relay, I am not willing to accept a major inconvenience. And make no mistake, with the size of my project, it would be a major inconvenience.I think that your comment that I would "be part of the problem", however well intended, was misdirected. As an end user, it is not my responsibility to be "part of the solution". Is it?I appreciate your help and I do believe your comment was well intended however.You were definitely part of my solution to this frustrating and costly mini-project. Hours were spent......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Sorry, I meant absolutely no offense by saying you'd be part of the problem. What I meant is that:Control4's PQA process is like most PQA processes, a 'continuous-improvement' process, in that it depends on RMA inputs to determine the root cause of problems such as yours, so that Control4 can fix the root cause, so no other units are manufactured / shipped with that issue. Without RMAs, the PQA process can't get any better.Control4 used to have quite a bad RMA rate, but it has improved significantly starting 3 1/2 years ago, and has quite good RMA rates at this point, although the numbers are not public, and I don't have the exact numbers anyway...There is a 2 year warranty on Control4 equipment, so if you purchased it a year ago, it should still be covered.You'd have to work with your dealer to find out what the RMA policies are, as I don't know if Control4 does advance drop ship for RMA devices or not.I'm sorry it's an inconvenience to you in any case, whether you choose to have your dealer RMA the product or not.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinosaur Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 Sorry, I meant absolutely no offense by saying you'd be part of the problem. What I meant is that:Control4's PQA process is like most PQA processes, a 'continuous-improvement' process, in that it depends on RMA inputs to determine the root cause of problems such as yours, so that Control4 can fix the root cause, so no other units are manufactured / shipped with that issue. Without RMAs, the PQA process can't get any better.Control4 used to have quite a bad RMA rate, but it has improved significantly starting 3 1/2 years ago, and has quite good RMA rates at this point, although the numbers are not public, and I don't have the exact numbers anyway...There is a 2 year warranty on Control4 equipment, so if you purchased it a year ago, it should still be covered.You'd have to work with your dealer to find out what the RMA policies are, as I don't know if Control4 does advance drop ship for RMA devices or not.I'm sorry it's an inconvenience to you in any case, whether you choose to have your dealer RMA the product or not.RyanECompletely understood. Again, thanks for your help with the problems that my dealer and I were trying to iron out. Your input was very valuable as was the other posters' input.Your comment was well intended as I believed and stated above.Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebster Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 With a large project it seems to make sense to have some redundancy. Maybe add another HC and use it to offload some of the services of the 2nd one. Then if one goes down, you can limp along on "1 engine" until the other is fixed. I have an HC-1000 and an HC-300 in my equip room, and another HC-300 in a theater. If I lose one of them, I can reconfigure on a temporary basis. I also did this with my heating system - installed 2 small boilers instead of 1 larger one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinosaur Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 With a large project it seems to make sense to have some redundancy. Maybe add another HC and use it to offload some of the services of the 2nd one. Then if one goes down, you can limp along on "1 engine" until the other is fixed. I have an HC-1000 and an HC-300 in my equip room, and another HC-300 in a theater. If I lose one of them, I can reconfigure on a temporary basis. I also did this with my heating system - installed 2 small boilers instead of 1 larger one.I believe that the HC500 is the only controller with 4 relays and 4 contacts. For redundancy, I would need another HC500 or a separate contact/relay box along with another controller.I'm actually looking at getting the HC1000 but the redundancy would not be the reason.Redundancy is a good thing in a large project but cost is always a consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Not only would the cost of the controller be an issue, but also the cost of paying the dealer to change all the bindings, move relays and contacts, it would be a nightmare. Talk about adding insult to injuly. "You got a defective HC500, so we will use the backup you bought for $1,500 - good thing you got that. We should have your defective HC500 back in about two weeks. The only other thing to discuss is the $350 labor to move the project over to your backup controller. I could probably make it out there first part of next week, are you available around 11:00 AM?".Buying a backup controller for a situation like this is not very feasible. I have several controllers and some redundancy, but it would be more than an inconvenience to try and send one of them in for repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinosaur Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 Update:My dealer arranged a swap for my HC500. It is arriving today (24 hours!). I am getting a refurb that has been fully tested and certified. I am then swapping out mine and sending it back. The refurb is then mine to keep.The one caveat is that if the "defective" relay turns out to not be defective then there will be a bench charge. We tested the relay and feel confident that it is defective.Thanks again RyanE. Your post was the impetus behind this exchange with Control4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Just curious, what is the "bench charge"? I mean, how much money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinosaur Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 Just curious, what is the "bench charge"? I mean, how much money?My dealer said that the bench charge of under $100 would apply if Control4 finds that our claim of a bad relay is not accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I would think the bench charge would probably be the $$$ for the amount of time spent by someone troubleshooting the RMA that turns out to not be defective.For a relay, it's not too difficult to determine that the relay is truly bad.The charge is pretty standard, it helps ensure that dealers don't return good equipment under RMA.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I agree with the charge. If there isn't something like that in place, obviously the program would get abused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinosaur Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 I would think the bench charge would probably be the $$$ for the amount of time spent by someone troubleshooting the RMA that turns out to not be defective.For a relay, it's not too difficult to determine that the relay is truly bad.The charge is pretty standard, it helps ensure that dealers don't return good equipment under RMA.RyanEYes, I think it's reasonable to charge for time taken to test a device that is claimed to be defective if it is discovered that it is not. No argument.We tested the relay two ways: in the C4 project and with a multitester. If it is determined to not be defective on the bench then it is unexplainable why we got our results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinosaur Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 Update:I received a new HC500 today. Everything that I have connected works and I even tested all the relays and contacts and they all function. My HC500 with the defective relay is going back on RMA and my dealer and I are confident that relay #3 is not working and I will not be charged a bench fee.Many thanks to RyanE for his suggestion to get an RMA. C4 handled it excellently by shipping overnight a replacement that went into my project before uninstalling the defective unit. This was a good experience with Control4. I'm very satisfied with their responsiveness and professionalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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