HDMI over CAT6

[cgreenwell]

First post and first thread started here. I've really learned a lot from this site over the past few months.

Here's my question:

If I am converting an HDMI signal to travel over dual cat6 cable, is it possible to switch the pairs using a higher-end ethernet matrix/router? I realize the switches firmware would have to force the pairs to stay together at all times.

[henniae]

If I understand you correctly you want to use an Ethernet switch or router for this. If so, the answer is no. Most HDMI extenders are point-to-point devices. The HDMI extender does not convert the signal to the IP protocol it just uses the Cat-6 cable to pass the signals.

[cgreenwell]

If I understand you correctly you want to use an Ethernet switch or router for this. If so, the answer is no. Most HDMI extenders are point-to-point devices. The HDMI extender does not convert the signal to the IP protocol it just uses the Cat-6 cable to pass the signals.

But if someone made a true ethernet matrix, and not one that multiplexed the data. That's what I was looking to see if someone made.

[henniae]

If I understand you correctly you want to use an Ethernet switch or router for this. If so' date=' the answer is no. Most HDMI extenders are point-to-point devices. The HDMI extender does not convert the signal to the IP protocol it just uses the Cat-6 cable to pass the signals.[/quote']

But if someone made a true ethernet matrix, and not one that multiplexed the data. That's what I was looking to see if someone made.

HDMI is not Ethernet and HDMI extenders do not convert the HDMI signal to Ethernet. The only thing that the HDMI extenders have in common with Ethernet is that they both can use Cat-5 or Cat-6 cable.

[cgreenwell]

HDMI is not Ethernet and HDMI extenders do not convert the HDMI signal to Ethernet. The only thing that the HDMI extenders have in common with Ethernet is that they both can use Cat-5 or Cat-6 cable.

That's what I'm trying to get across, I want to use the ethernet connections from the extenders and hard-switch them to multiple paired outputs and then convert them back to an HDMI with the extenders. I shouldn't have used the word router at all. That always brings up thoughts of TCP/IP.

I have 10 sources of HDMI that I want to get to 10 displays and choose what ever source available that I want. The only options for a true HDMI matrix switch is rather expensive right now and I was looking for a solid option.

[henniae]

HDMI is not Ethernet and HDMI extenders do not convert the HDMI signal to Ethernet. The only thing that the HDMI extenders have in common with Ethernet is that they both can use Cat-5 or Cat-6 cable.

That's what I'm trying to get across' date=' I want to use the ethernet connections from the extenders and hard-switch them to multiple paired outputs and then convert them back to an HDMI with the extenders. I shouldn't have used the word router at all. That always brings up thoughts of TCP/IP.

I have 10 sources of HDMI that I want to get to 10 displays and choose what ever source available that I want. The only options for a true HDMI matrix switch is rather expensive right now and I was looking for a solid option.[/quote']

I understand now. Yes the only options I know of are expensive HDMI matrix switches. Welcome to the world of HDMI my friend.

Frankly HDMI is a PITA. You might consider using component baluns and a less expensive component switch. Most people can't tell the difference between 720p/1080i over component and 1080p over HDMI.

[thecodeman]

HDMI is not Ethernet and HDMI extenders do not convert the HDMI signal to Ethernet. The only thing that the HDMI extenders have in common with Ethernet is that they both can use Cat-5 or Cat-6 cable.

That's what I'm trying to get across' date=' I want to use the ethernet connections from the extenders and hard-switch them to multiple paired outputs and then convert them back to an HDMI with the extenders. I shouldn't have used the word router at all. That always brings up thoughts of TCP/IP.

I have 10 sources of HDMI that I want to get to 10 displays and choose what ever source available that I want. The only options for a true HDMI matrix switch is rather expensive right now and I was looking for a solid option.[/quote']

I understand now. Yes the only options I know of are expensive HDMI matrix switches. Welcome to the world of HDMI my friend.

Frankly HDMI is a PITA. You might consider using component baluns and a less expensive component switch. Most people can't tell the difference between 720p/1080i over component and 1080p over HDMI.

I'd second this, and recommend looking into offerings from Neothings or Zektor.

[cgreenwell]

I'm just trying to keep from having to update everything in a few years. This is a new construction home and I'd really like to have 1080p as a base resolution.

[henniae]

I'm just trying to keep from having to update everything in a few years. This is a new construction home and I'd really like to have 1080p as a base resolution.

If you install cat-6 to each location you will be fairly safe for the foreseeable future. What cabling are you running to each location? You might consider some conduit runs also.

Some question and thoughts to consider.

1. What is the resolution (and size) of each of the TVs you are installing. Sure 1080p looks great on a 50 inch TV that supports 1080p but most smaller TVs you will never notice the difference. sending 1080p to every TV is overkill in many cases.

2. What is the output resolution of each of your sources. Other than BluRay disks there is not too much 1080p native resolution available fromthe likes of cable and sat providers.

3. Is the extra cost of HDMI extenders and a very expensive HDMI matrix switch worth the investment?

4. HDMI sucks. Distribution and switching of HDMI really sucks even more dificult. It is hard to do and it is expensive as you have discovered by the cost of the hardware you are looking at.

In regard to updating everything in a very years. Once again welcome to the AV industry, which is much like the computer industry. We don't know exactly what will be available in a few years, however there are many new technologies being developed. New resolutions new video delivery methods. At some point you will have to replace the hardware.

Just my2 cents. There are a many more knowledgeable people on this forum than I who can provide ever more expert opinion.

Good luck with your project.

[thecodeman]

You can have 1080p over component as long as your source components and display devices will handle it. The Zektor unit is capable internally of switching up to 1440p resolutions.

However, recent changes in the grand copy protection scheme of things have decided to enforce a flag making blu-ray players in the future only output 1080p over HDMI, and that component outputs would be restricted to SD 480p.

At this point, a lot of integration companies and CE companies have held off on HDMI, for the proven, stable nature and that we are just now getting HDMI matrix switches that will potentially eliminate the HDCP handshake issues of the past. Just recently the HDMI 1.4a spec was introduced, and cables for it are starting to ship. In the minds of many consumers, now HDMI 1.3 devices are "out of date", even though it's possible to get multichannel lossles surround sound with LPCM back in 1.1. So with HDMI it's a constant game of updates, and the cost of licensing is still high.

Ultimately, the most solid foundation that's still cost effective today is to pre-wire with Cat5/6 cables and (yes) even quad shield RG6 (local HDTV antenna or future use with MOCA devices). Then use a quality component over HDMI matrix, and when you decide to jump ship to HDMI, they will still make available as they do today devices that use baluns and Cat structured cable. At that point, it's relatively simple to upgrade by swapping out your matrix switch and baluns.

Also, Control4's HD GUI at this time is only 720p and component output across the board, sorry to kill the "1080p base resolution dream".

[thecodeman]

Good post Alan. I type slow

[brian m]

matrix switching hdmi is really not very good - or very expensive or a crap shoot if it will work ......

but there is a fairly easy, somewhat less expensive solution that is 100% reliable - and upgradeable in the future for different hdmi standards..

one question is how do you want to handle audio? If you want DTS-HD or Dolby-HD -- this method is not going to work, but if using analog or optical or digital coax - no problems ..

it is basically using a component switcher OR (better) a RGBHV (VGA) switcher to switch the video - using a high bandwidth matrix switcher (all the better ones handle 1080p on component or RGBHV .. extremely low low loss if any IF you use a quality piece

all HDMI into the matrix is converted first using HDFury2 (monoprice or www.curtpalme.com) , you will need power supplies for each one from some sources (usually xbmc or pac hdmi out) - you can choose VGA or component output and these are firmware upgradeable...

at the other end - use vga input, or flat panels that handle 1080p on component or vga or component to hdmi converters ...

[brian m]

the codemans suggestion is very apropos -- we prewire with quad shield RG6 (1, sometimes 2) and cat6 (3) , with one of those cat6 being shielded to every tv and media plate ..

we also have been pulling dual fibre if the customer will pay for it -- this is to EVERY wall plate and tv locate ..

pretty well covers anything i hope --->

[thecodeman]

I personally havent had a request for fiber, mostly due to the cost at this time both for the cable and ensuring proper certification of termination and the run itself (it's made of glass and has special bend radius requirements, etc or it will "break".) We used fiber at a place I used to work for, in boom arms for HD Endoscopic cameras in OR rooms.

[cgreenwell]

Thanks for all the replies fellas.

I was planning on using the C4 system mostly as a robust IR controller, audio distribution, lighting controller, security, etc. And only have a few HC-300's. But I think I'd be better off running a dedicated HDMI line to the displays that I absolutely want to have 1080p and use the component matrix for the rest along with a few HC-200's.

I have dual cat6, a ca5e hardwired to every display location, and an empty 2" conduit to each location for "future proofing".

As far as the Audio side, I'm using the C4 matrix amp for music, and then the display locations that use 5.1 and 7.1 have dedicated receivers.

[henniae]

cgreenwell

You seem to have a good handle on all of this. The Cat-6 and Cat-5e are a good start. I probably woud have run a second cat-5e and at least 1 RG6 to each location. The reason for the second cat-5e is that many newer TVs and DVDs have an Ethernet connection, but the Ethernet connection can't be used for control. An example is my Samsung LN52A650. It has Ethernet but can be controlled over the Ethernet so I need to use IR as it also has no serial control.

Having the conduit means that you can add extra cable later.

In my house my main TV is close to my basement equipment closet so I also ran an HDMI cable from my TVto my receiver.

You might consider placing the HC200 behind the TVs as there are some future enhancements in the works that will provide better ZigBee coverage and having the HC200 spread around the house rather than in a central equipment closet will be a real benefit.

I am curious, how big is this home and what is the general layout?

[cgreenwell]

I am curious, how big is this home and what is the general layout?

It's right at 6k. Full basement with bonus room over the garage. My media closet is in the middle of the basement.

Here's a pic of the progress as of a few weeks ago.

[thecodeman]

Nice. Where are you located and do you have a dealer already

[cgreenwell]

Nice. Where are you located and do you have a dealer already

Ha! Thanks, I'm in central KY and I already have a dealer/integrator. But this will be their first install of C4 so I expect it to take along time on the programming and troubleshooting side of things. They've given me a lot of room on what I want to try and accomplish so far. Prime example is the video distribution I was asking about in this thread.

[henniae]

Very nice place.

Since this is your dealer's first install I will be bold and offer some additional suggestions for coll things you can do with C4 and some additional considerations for your install.

1. If your dealer has not already done so run conduit from the equipment closet to other parts of the house such as the attic. You never know when you might need to run additional wire.

2. I setup my C4 system to monitor and open/close my garage door. It is a very nice feature as I can see the status of the doors and open and close them. I have a good night button the shuts off all my lights and closes the garage doors if the are open. To make this work you might consider running wire from each garage door opener to your equipment closet. You mentioned you had a security system. If the security system will monitor the open/close status of the garage doors than C4 can use the security system to determine if the garage doors are open or closed. If the security system will not monitor the garage door status the run more wire from each door back to the equipment closet so you can install magnetic sensors to monitor garage door status. It is possible to do this wirelessly but I prefer a hard wired option.

There are other cool things you can do but I have to get to work.

Again, nice looking place and good luck with your C4system

[lippavisual]

Also, FYI, some sources don't output HDMI and Component at the same time. Make sure you or your dealer do your research on the equipment that is being proposed.

[cgreenwell]

Very nice place.

Since this is your dealer's first install I will be bold and offer some additional suggestions for coll things you can do with C4 and some additional considerations for your install.

1. If your dealer has not already done so run conduit from the equipment closet to other parts of the house such as the attic. You never know when you might need to run additional wire.

2. I setup my C4 system to monitor and open/close my garage door. It is a very nice feature as I can see the status of the doors and open and close them. I have a good night button the shuts off all my lights and closes the garage doors if the are open. To make this work you might consider running wire from each garage door opener to your equipment closet. You mentioned you had a security system. If the security system will monitor the open/close status of the garage doors than C4 can use the security system to determine if the garage doors are open or closed. If the security system will not monitor the garage door status the run more wire from each door back to the equipment closet so you can install magnetic sensors to monitor garage door status. It is possible to do this wirelessly but I prefer a hard wired option.

There are other cool things you can do but I have to get to work.

Again, nice looking place and good luck with your C4system

1. There's a large chase above the media closet on up to the attic, with a few extra conduits ran.

2. It will be done exactly like your setup is.

Also I really wanted to get some of the wireless door locks installed in the house, but we went with Sun windows and doors, that have triple locks that can't be replaced with a conventional style lock.

Also, FYI, some sources don't output HDMI and Component at the same time. Make sure you or your dealer do your research on the equipment that is being proposed.

Thanks, I've noticed with some displays when an HDMI cable is connected it wants to default to it. Things my integrator will have lots of fun programming around.

[thecodeman]

Also' date=' FYI, some sources don't output HDMI and Component at the same time. Make sure you or your dealer do your research on the equipment that is being proposed.[/quote']

Thanks, I've noticed with some displays when an HDMI cable is connected it wants to default to it. Things my integrator will have lots of fun programming around.

I just noticed my panasonic 800u doing this with my new Samsung 3600 blu-ray player the other day.

[bog]

I'm using Audio Authority to distribute video over two Cat5e cables. It's supports up to 1080p using component cables.

I've been testing with a 1:1 balun up until now but like it enough to get their matrix.

[yee]

HDMI more popular in Europe every new gadget that came out have to have at least one HDMI. Otherwise you are out of the market in Europe.