HDMI over CAT6

[ILoveC4]

HDMI more popular in Europe every new gadget that came out have to ahve at least one HDMI. Otherwise you are out of the market in Europe.

Everything here has had HDMI for the last two years...

That doesn't change the fact that it totally sucks.

I bet I have 25 HDMI jacks in my house, and not one HDMI cable.

[Jeff at Zektor]

Thanks for the mention Codeman. To Bog, the Zektor Prowler, which uses our SoloCAT CAT5 extender technology, sends audio, video and power over a single CAT5/5e/6 cable. We also sell the SoloCAT's as pairs and have just released our wall plate receiver. Good luck on the project.

Thanks.

Jeff

[CFUG]

I use the single cable units- awsome performance

[yee]

I use the single cable units- awsome performance

Have you try compare double cable and single cable unit perfomance? I have double cable unit bought it recently I havent set it up yet now you mention single unit, its tempting. I still try to rewire the whole house with cat6 over the cat5e.

[yee]

Thanks for the mention Codeman. To Bog, the Zektor Prowler, which uses our SoloCAT CAT5 extender technology, sends audio, video and power over a single CAT5/5e/6 cable. We also sell the SoloCAT's as pairs and have just released our wall plate receiver. Good luck on the project.

Thanks.

Jeff

Hi jeff its your system SoloCat support HDMI 1.3? Also whats the transfer rate? I might consider swap my duel cat matrix.

Yee

[thecodeman]

The Zektro Prowler and related SoloCAT boxes are for Component video.

http://www.zektor.com/

http://www.cepro.com/article/review_zektor_solocat_component_video_extender/K341

[bog]

Jeff, thanks for the tips. By the way, Audio Authority UniDrive is $369 and Zekto's SoloCat are similar. The Audio Authority seems a more mature product for less. Have you done any performance comparisons?

By the way, while looking at my Onkyo TX-SR605 receiver this weekend it appears it can do some video switching. I know it's not a matrix, however, it may do exactly what I need without a video matrix.

[Jeff at Zektor]

Thanks for the comments. Bog, to address your questions here goes; the Zektor SoloCAT extender and Audio Authority UniDrive product is similar in capability but the SoloCAT is vastly different in design superiority. I do not believe in degrading a competitor whereas AA has been around for a long time and is also commonly used.

Here are the key considerations:

*SoloCAT transmits component video and stereo L/R analog audio or digital S/PDIF audio over a SINGLE CAT5

*SoloCAT auto converts between analog and digital audio. If you input analog audio on one side but want digital on the other side, the SoloCAT has a seamless conversion.

*SoloCAT can be powered on either the transmit side OR the receive side, whichever is more convenient to apply power up to 1000'. Runs of 1000' does require power at both ends.

*SoloCAT transmits audio in digital format and then converts back to analog if needed. This is a key feature. If your CAT5 cable is pulled too close to an AC source you can pick up EMI/RFI interference and distortion. Our audio result is crystal clear as digital 1's and 0's don't care about interference.

*Low profile chassis for mounting behind a flat screen.

*The Audio Authority (AA) UniDrive required TWO CAT5 cables which is an apples to oranges comparison.

*UniDrive does not convert between analog and digital audio signals.

*The UniDrive does have IR capability whereas we do not. (if we would have designed using two cables we would have also provided RS232)

I am a bit puzzled on their naming. The SoloCAT was named in part with "Solo" referencing a common understanding for "one". The UniDrive requires two CAT5 cables so what part of their naming references "Uni" which is also known as an understanding for "one"?

So in the end, our MSRP's are $459 from Zektor and $369 from AA. Again, this is an "apples to oranges" comparison but hopefully the detail will help you make your decision. With regards to Onkyo, if you have enough connections to fit your project then you are good to go. Keep in mind most of the receiver manufacturers add connections for convenience as they are not producing a switch and not charging for the capabilities of a switch.

Good luck and thanks for the accurate references Codeman.

Jeff

[bog]

Jeff: I understand the need to differentiate your products with competitors, however, the product features are so similar it almost seems trivial to be splitting hairs that distribution over 2x Cat5e cables makes it an apples to oranges comparison. I appreciate the audio distribution as being digital to avoid interference.

RE: UniDrive naming

Audio Authority has a UniDrive which provides 1:1 distribution and a DuoDrive which provides 1:2 distribution. SoloCAT suggests Cat5e/6 cabling? UniDrive suggests the number of drivers (i.e. video displays). From this perspective, Uni and Duo are being used properly without confusion on my part. Why is the number of cables required for distribution such an important factor (aside from the need to differentiate from competitors)?

[henniae]

Why is the number of cables required for distribution such an important factor (aside from the need to differentiate from competitors)?

bog

I can't specifically speak for Jeff, but as an installer the number of cables is important for retrofit jobs. If you prewire with ample Cat-5 no problem. If there is existing wire in place and that existing wire is deficient in quantity than a one cat-5 solution is important.

Many houses were wired with one RG-6 and one Cat-5 to each TV location. Sometimes you can pull more wire and sometimes you can't easily pull more wire.

[thecodeman]

Why is the number of cables required for distribution such an important factor (aside from the need to differentiate from competitors)?

bog

I can't specifically speak for Jeff' date=' but as an installer the number of cables is important for retrofit jobs. If you prewire with ample Cat-5 no problem. If there is existing wire in place and that existing wire is deficient in quantity than a one cat-5 solution is important.

Many houses were wired with one RG-6 and one Cat-5 to each TV location. Sometimes you can pull more wire and sometimes you can't easily pull more wire.[/quote']

This is true, and one of the reasons why we signed on to be a dealer with Zektor. We have a client that we are bidding that we need to take advantage of the second Cat5 for other things (control or network for example).

[bog]

I agree that when it's not possible to pull an additional cable, the ability to use 1 Cat5 is very significant. I was fortunate that I have conduit and had pre-planned to pull two cables for my video distribution.

[Jeff at Zektor]

Bog, a couple of the main reasons we chose to put a very large design effort into the SoloCAT technology is for the very reason, and confirmation, from Codeman and henniae. There are many times when the builder only pulled one CAT5 to a zone or bedroom. From the feedback we polled from LOTS of integrators, we overwhelmingly concluded that if we could provide audio, video and power over a single CAT5 cable that was the way to go. Paying a slight premium for this was acceptable. Additionally, I have been to retrofits where a wall was opened up only to show a CAT5 cable was two inches away from an AC Romex power cable. So our decision to transmit audio digitally was the correct one.

As I mentioned on the previous post, we were also asked to have analog to digital conversion as different sources have different outputs. Zektor is one of the very few manufacturers that converts these formats, so not only is it a differentiator, it also provides a real world request that solves an absolute need for our base of integrators.

From the marketing perspective, whenever we come to market with a new product we do so after analyzing who we are competing against, what is the current and long term market opportunity, what is our expertise and where do our core design competencies provide to the market. Our product(s) must compel our current base of integrators to stay with Zektor and attract a new audience to us as well. Otherwise, as a company we would fight a never ending battle of pricing wars that you cannot win when you produce here in the U.S. as we do. There are far more manufacturers slugging it out to win on price and will live with large return rates because they compromised on quality in order to be price competitive. That will never be our model. Zektor will continue to solve problems for integrators as our product is designed by them and built by us. Even when you look at our new Control4 driver it does more because our product does more.

In the end, we design and manufacture switches but we build relationships. We do this on the core belief of listening to our customers, being honest and ethical and providing a product that the market embraces. If you have a supplier that meets your needs you will probably stay with them. I would not expect anyone to pay for what they don't need. There are other manufacturers, such as AA, that provides a product that might not have all the capability of ours but is completely acceptable for a given install. While lesser known than many, Zektor has been around for seven years and has built a reputation for quality, reliability and unmatched support. I believe that these principles alone are a differentiator.

Best of luck in your endeavors. Please let us know what we can do to help you in your business.

Jeff

[cgreenwell]

That's one of the best ways to continue to grow as a business, build what your customers want, not dictate what your customers get.

Jeff, have you read over what it is that I'm looking for at the beginning of this thread? I know that it's possible to build a switch that will accomplish what I'm trying to do. I was actually hoping someone made one already so that I could test it out without too much initial cost.

[Jeff at Zektor]

I just re-read your initial thread, I guess I got caught up in the component discussions and went from there! I'm not the HDMI expert by any means, however I am becoming more familiar with the many of issues of HDMI as we are in the early stages of our HDMI product planning.

If HDMI worked in the way it was initially proposed and dreamed up, it would be the best technology available. Unfortunately, Hollywood and their lawyers had to be involved and that's where the trouble begins. If Hollywood and their many legal groups would pull their head out of their @ss and realize that piracy doesn't happen at the equipment that is playing the content, it happens at the computer or duplicating machine.

I know there is a different discussion about HTPC's directly integrated into the environment which does change the perspective a bit. The bottom line is Hollywood is to blame for most of the issues related to HDMI from what I have ever read and been told by people in the CI industry. The HDMI connectors have also been unreliable in field as well. There has been more than one call related to connector issues from comments from the integrators we deal with.

We have seen a lot of integrators directly connect a Blu Ray player to the display where the client really wants 1080p content and then distribute the rest of the project in component.

Good luck with your project.

Jeff

[thecodeman]

We do HDMI in individual zones that need it, like dedicated theater rooms. At that point, we connect them to a receiver since it's likely 5.1 or more speakers for surround. Those HDMI sources aren't shared in the rest of the house, there's likely a second in the rack using component video and digital coax or stereo audio for distribution.

[Nded]

First post and first thread started here. I've really learned a lot from this site over the past few months.

Here's my question:

If I am converting an HDMI signal to travel over dual cat6 cable, is it possible to switch the pairs using a higher-end ethernet matrix/router? I realize the switches firmware would have to force the pairs to stay together at all times.

My first post too! It is possible to do exactly what you've imagined on a Managed Ethernet Switch with RS232 control for your C4 interface, but not with those dual CATx baluns. Instead of HDMI baluns, you need to use HDMI over IP devices. HDMI over IP technology lets you build a virtual HDMI Matrix solution that can support practically any number of HDMI inputs, and up to 200 HDMI outputs. The same input can be shown on multiple screens at the same time (within any HDCP enforced limits on # of simultaneous screens). Here's a picture of a 5x5 layout, but the 24 Port Managed Ethernet Switch in the diagram could easily handle your 10x10 scenario:

There are lots of Managed Ethernet Switches on the market, just make sure you pick one with an RS232 control port (hard to make it work with C4 otherwise). The switch must also support VLAN and IGMP protocol, but you don't have to fork over the $$ for Gigabit support, as 100BT is more than adequate for the job.

Ed

[wingzz]

Would you happen to have a link to a site or a paper that goes into more detail about how to set something like this up??

[henniae]

Would you happen to have a link to a site or a paper that goes into more detail about how to set something like this up??

Here is the link to the site that has the info about this product.

http://www.justaddpower.com/vmchk/VBS-Suite-for-High-Definition/79-HDMI-over-IP-Receiver/flypage.tpl.html

The company is Just Add Power.

[Nded]

Physical setup of an HDMI over IP system is a breeze. You connect each source to an HDMI over IP Transmitter, and you connect each display or projector to an HDMI over IP Receiver. You then run a single CAT5 back to the Managed Ethernet Switch (punch-downs and patch panels are totally acceptable). If the source has DVI output, you use a DVA+Audio>HDMI Adapter to connect that source to the HDMI network. If the source has VGA output, you use a VGA+Audio>HDMI ADapter to connect that source to the HDMI network.

If you are using a budget Managed Switch without an RS232 port you have to rely upon the switches HTTP GUI to operate the system, but no self-respecting C4 professional would install such a beast. Instead, you would want to go with a better grade RS232 controlled Managed switch and an attractive/user friendly C4 front end.

[henniae]

Physical setup of an HDMI over IP system is a breeze. You connect each source to an HDMI over IP Transmitter, and you connect each display or projector to an HDMI over IP Receiver. You then run a single CAT5 back to the Managed Ethernet Switch (punch-downs and patch panels are totally acceptable). If the source has DVI output, you use a DVA+Audio>HDMI Adapter to connect that source to the HDMI network. If the source has VGA output, you use a VGA+Audio>HDMI ADapter to connect that source to the HDMI network.

If you are using a budget Managed Switch without an RS232 port you have to rely upon the switches HTTP GUI to operate the system, but no self-respecting C4 professional would install such a beast. Instead, you would want to go with a better grade RS232 controlled Managed switch and an attractive/user friendly C4 front end.

Ed

This looks like a very nice product. I have been to your website and I have a question that I don't find answers to on the site.

Why the managed switch? Is it because a transmitter can only send data a set of receivers? Let's say I have 3 transmitters (TX1 and TX2) and 6 receivers (RX1 ... RX6). If I want TX1 to send a signal to RX1 through RX6 would I have to log into the switch and put TX1 and RX1 through RX6 on the same VLAN? If I then wanted to TX2 to send signal to RX4, RX5 and RX6 would need to log into the switch and change the VLANs so TX1, RX1, RX2 and RX3 are on one VLAN and TX2, RX4, RX5 and RX6 are on a different VLAN?

[Nded]

Physical setup of an HDMI over IP system is a breeze. You connect each source to an HDMI over IP Transmitter' date=' and you connect each display or projector to an HDMI over IP Receiver. You then run a single CAT5 back to the Managed Ethernet Switch (punch-downs and patch panels are totally acceptable). If the source has DVI output, you use a DVA+Audio>HDMI Adapter to connect that source to the HDMI network. If the source has VGA output, you use a VGA+Audio>HDMI ADapter to connect that source to the HDMI network.

If you are using a budget Managed Switch without an RS232 port you have to rely upon the switches HTTP GUI to operate the system, but no self-respecting C4 professional would install such a beast. Instead, you would want to go with a better grade RS232 controlled Managed switch and an attractive/user friendly C4 front end.[/quote']

Ed

This looks like a very nice product. I have been to your website and I have a question that I don't find answers to on the site.

Why the managed switch? Is it because a transmitter can only send data a set of receivers? Let's say I have 3 transmitters (TX1 and TX2) and 6 receivers (RX1 ... RX6). If I want TX1 to send a signal to RX1 through RX6 would I have to log into the switch and put TX1 and RX1 through RX6 on the same VLAN? If I then wanted to TX2 to send signal to RX4, RX5 and RX6 would need to log into the switch and change the VLANs so TX1, RX1, RX2 and RX3 are on one VLAN and TX2, RX4, RX5 and RX6 are on a different VLAN?

Be careful there Alan, that's the kind of Network Admin geek-speak that terrifies the uninitiated....

A more simple explanation is that only 1 TX is allowed per VLAN, and up to 200 RX's can hop betweeen the VLAN's, allowing them to instantly join an already in progress broadcast. The support for upt to 200 RX's is more of a Digital Signage topic (most Home Theaters are not worried about installing hundreds of screens). The broadcast is an IGMP data stream, so it is no problem to join/leave at any time. The process of logging into the switch and changing the VLAN assignments can all be done very fast via RS232.

As for the Managed Switch requirement, IF you only intend to have one TX in the configuration you can use a standard Ethernet switch (I have seen some basic Digital Signage implementations using a dirt cheap under $40 switch). Whether you are cascading standard "dumb" switches, or Managed switches, we reccomend you keep the CAT5e segments within the 100M/330' Ethernet specification. We have had reports of users running a single CAT5e over 600' with no problems, but that is just crazy talk. If you want to go long distance with HDMI over IP, you are advised to use multiple cascaded switches. In all cases, because this is a digital IP based solution, you have none of the problems with distance limitations that are associated with HDMI baluns (i.e. skew and having to switch from 1080p to 1080i or less as the cables get longer). HDMI over IP easily supports 1080p at a 1000' over copper when you keep within the Ethernet protocol specifications. For really long hauls beyond 1000', you would want to use high speed fiber connections between the switches. If you cascade too many levels, the lag response time for the HDCP handshake will fall out of specification and the HDMI/HDCP rules will prevent that screen from participating. When the source is in the "middle", the system can support a 2000' diameter implementation.

Ed

[ILoveC4]

This is all very interesting. Time to start my research.

[ILoveC4]

Also, what switch would you recommend for such an application? It sounds like an 8 port switch would work in my application becuase I would have two inputs and 5 outputs...

Currently I only distribute component through the house, but I have been looking into trying to distribute 1080P signals.

[wingzz]

Would you happen to have a link to a site or a paper that goes into more detail about how to set something like this up??

Here is the link to the site that has the info about this product.

http://www.justaddpower.com/vmchk/VBS-Suite-for-High-Definition/79-HDMI-over-IP-Receiver/flypage.tpl.html

The company is Just Add Power.

Thanks for the link