HDMI over CAT6

[Nded]

You want a "Managed Ethernet" switch with support for VLAN and IGMP. Cisco makes some 8 port models that are pretty expensive as they are all 1000BT ports, and the HDMI over IP only needs 100BT ports. I know you can get other brand 24 models for a lot less (some under $300). Just make sure you get one with an RS232 port if you want to use C4 to control it. I'm tied up this afternoon, but tonight I'll try to post some budget friendly suggestions. Thank you in advance for your patience.

Ed

[bog]

I see how this is working. At first I thought it was a 1:1 relationship of transmitters:receivers. It's actually 1:many.

-VLAN capabilities are required to ensure only one transmitter per VLAN.

-RS232 is required to dynamically create the VLANs as required.

Next we need a C4 driver.

This is a very interesting idea because it uses the network switch as the matrix instead of another device. What needs to be decided is wether this makes sense from a cost perspective? What's the least expensive switch that can be used? $250 per transmitter or receiver sounds reasonable (24 port Catalyst 2960 ranges from $500-$1700 on eBay).

Netgear 10/100 managed switch (Prosafe 24 port - FSM726) w/VLAN and Rs232 is $240 on their website. http://www.netgear.com/Products/Switches/FullyManaged10_100Switches/FSM726.aspx

Audio Authority 6x7 matrix is $2799 (essentially 7 transmitters). Baluns for the receiver end are extra @ $200 each. You're still limited by the number of receivers and transmitters with Audio Authority.

I'd love to see the quality of the Just Add Power. These also include audio?

[Joe]

Hello bog & everyone,

I'm Joe from Just Add Power. Ed isn't available this afternoon, but I'm here to answer questions.

All the switches you have listed should work fine with the system; and if I come across a better deal somewhere I will be sure to post it.

To answer your second question: yes, audio is also transmitted in its original format, whether it's 5.1 or PCM.

Let me know if you have any further questions.

Joe

[ILoveC4]

Bog brought up a great point...does a driver exist to allow this? In order for this to work with Control4, someone would need to write the driver issuing the VLAN commands, correct?

[henniae]

Bog brought up a great point...does a driver exist to allow this? In order for this to work with Control4, someone would need to write the driver issuing the VLAN commands, correct?

This is correct. To make this work we would need a driver that can translate the calls for video change from C4 into commands to change the VLANs on the LAN switch that has been deployed. The challenging aspect of doing this is that each Ethernet switch has a different method and syntax of making the required VLAN changes and there is no standard way to make these changes.

I like this solution but it seems to be more tailored for a point to multi-point video distribution model.

[Nded]

We will be showing the HDMI over IP solution at Cedia next month. Will anybody from this forum be there that could make an independent report back to the community?

[Nded]

Are there any C4 dealers reading this thread that have the skills to write an RS232 driver to support at least one make/model Managed switch? I would like to negotiate an exchange of sorts with a willing and talented person who would like to get their hands on some HDIM over IP samples. Ideally, you will also be attending Cedia next month, and would be willing to demonstrate your C4 interface in our booth (or at least provide a kit for the show). The switch I have in mind is the lowest price new Managed Ethernet Switch product I have found that seems to have all the needed features (VLAN, IGMP, and RS232) - http://www.icintracom.com/america/fast-ethernet-rackmount-websmart-switch-with-gigabit-ports-p-5172.html The MSRP is $249, and the dealer cost is somewhat less. The RS232 commands are fairly short and straight forward to implement. Please send me an email using the link in my profile here if you are interested.

Ed

Just Add Power

[bebster]

Ed,

If I understand the approach correctly, one nice aspect about your solution is that the switch's ports can be used for both HDMI sources as well as outputs. So the advantage over a fixed 8x8 (or NxN) switch is that you have flexibility in adding inputs and outputs as long as the switch has enough total ports. And if it doesn't then you buy a larger switch, and use the existing switch elsewhere in your network. On the other hand if your switch has unused ports, you can use them for other networking needs.

Is that right?

Do you have actual experience with the Intellinet 500456 switch and found it to be reliable?

Eventually you'll get the drivers to work for one or two supported switches and then this solution becomes quite viable once field proven and shown to be reliable.

[Nded]

Bebster,

You are pretty much correct. The only thing I'd change is the part about what to do when you outgrow the switch. It is my understanding that most managed switches can support bridging VLAN's, so all you have to do is add the second compatible Managed Switch. There is no need to swap out the first switch to grow the system.

Let's consider the $249 24 port switch from IC Intracom, or the $240 24 port switch from NetGear. If you decided to dedicate that switch to HDMI switching, you could support any of the 23 possible TX/RX combination from a 1 Input X 23 Output configuration to a 23 Input by 1 Output configuration (technically you can also use the 2 1000BT uplink ports so they both are actually 26 port switches with 25 possible matrices). This type of total flexibility is just not possible (dare I say inconceivable) with the hard-wired matrix products. Just try going back to the matrix switch manufacturer and asking them if you can upgrade that 4X4 Matrix to a 4X6? How about finding a 5X9 or a 10x10 on the shelf anywhere?

We will be demonstrating this solution with the HTTP GUI at CEDIA next month, but I'd love to partner up with a C4 dealer to make something happen in the next 30 days. So far I have not heard from any C4 dealers wanting to collaborate, but I hope to hear something soon. I'm guessing a lot of the dealers are not regularly reading the public side of the forums. I would appreciate it if Alan or one of the other dealers who has been following this thread could put up a notice on the dealer side that Just Add Power is looking for somebody to work on this and turn it around quickly.

[bebster]

Good summaries here of VLAN technology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_LAN#Port-based_VLANs

http://www.petri.co.il/csc_setup_a_vlan_on_a_cisco_switch.htm

[bog]

nded: Can you give me an example of the commands used to dynamically create the VLAN on a particular switch? You'll need DriverWorks to create the driver.

Let's say a switch with 24 ports. All on the same VLAN. Now I want to do the following:

-VLAN1: ports 1, 5, and 16

-VLAN2: ports 10 and 24

-VLAN3: all the others

I'll try and download the manual for the netgear switch.

Another benefit to this approach is that input devices do not need to be centralized. For example, there may be a cable box in the living room, another in the bedroom and a DVD player in the den.

Another disadvantage is that each transmitter and receiver requires power, unlike other solutions that require power only at the transmitter end. Unless the transmitters and receivers support PoE?

[Nded]

I see how this is working.....snip....

Audio Authority 6x7 matrix is $2799 (essentially 7 transmitters). Baluns for the receiver end are extra @ $200 each. You're still limited by the number of receivers and transmitters with Audio Authority.

I'll take your information as accurately reflecting the MSRP for Audio Authority (if that's not true, I apologize for any mis-representation). I apologize for this probably sounding like a sales pitch, but I can't think of a different way to look at the facts:

Configuration - 6 input x 7 output matrix solution.

Base Cost (using MSRP on company websites at www.audioauthority.com and www.justaddpower.com)

$4,199 Audio Authority ($2799 base plus 7 $200 receivers).

$3,794 Just Add Power ($250 24 port Managed Switch, 6 X $299 TX, plus 7 * $250 RX)

Observations

The AA Solution powers the Receivers over the UTP BUS, the JAP solution has a wall wart. Advantage AA for now (consider this a JAP support for Power over Ethernet "statement of direction").

Both products have integrated IR return functions that are isolated to the active source. We'll call that a tie.

Both products can support distances up to 1000'. We'll call that a tie (note the "fine tune" comparison below)

The AA Solution has the audio output on Digital Coax and Analog Stero, the JAP Solution audio is on the single HDMI cable. Depending on the nature of the attached devices and sound gear on the receiver end, this difference can swing in either products favor. There are converter devices readily available to solve this possible problem in either direction (i.e. Component+Audio>HDMI adapters and HDMI>Coax/Stereo adapters). We'll call that a tie.

The AA Solution uses 2 CAT5e/6 cables per drop, the JAP Solution uses 1 CAT5e/6 per drop. Advantage JAP

The AA Solution is Component, the JAP Solution is HDMI. Many HD sources now "downgrade" the component output, and like it or not, HDMI is the way of the future. Already there are HD devices that don't even offer component outputs. Advantage JAP

The AA Solution output can only be upgraded in 6 port increments ($699 for 6 ports, plus $200 for each additional receiver), the JAP Solution can be upgraded one port at a time ($250 for each additional receiver). Advantage JAP

The AA Solution forces a "least common denominator" output video resoultion, the JAP Solultion with an integrated scaler in each receiver allows mix/match of of monitors resolutions. In other words, if you have purchased a 720p monitor for the kitchen, then you have to downgrade your inputs to only 720p. With the JAP solution you set all your inputs for 1080p, and the RX devices automatically adjust the output for the attached display's preferred resolution. Advantage JAP

The AA Solution has "Cable length compensation adjustment allows the installer to fine tune image and sound quality over long Cat 5 runs", the JAP solution is simply digital Plug-and-Play, with no time wasted trying to tune in a signal. The AA "fine tuning" is in 100' increments (wonder what looks best on a 150' cable?). JAP does have an analog VGA Matrix solution with a similar "fine tuning" strategy (see the Video Genie solution for House of Worship at www.justaddpower.com ), so I know what a pain it is to have your output fine tuned for a specific cable length. Advantage JAP

At this point, I think I might be percieved as "piling on", so I won't address any other differences between the solutions unless a C4 member has specific product comparison concerns.

I'd love to see the quality of the Just Add Power. These also include audio?

I'm hoping at least one member of the C4 forum will be at Cedia next month to see and hear it in action. Please let me know if you want to schedule a set date/time during the show for a demonstration.

Ed

Just Add Power

[bog]

Based on the Netgear FSM726 setup manual (here) the commands appear to be:

[setup vlan2=ports 1, 5, 16]... vlan1 seems to be reserved so we won't use that one.

configure

interface ethernet 1/1

switchport access native 2

exit

interface ethernet 1/5

switchport access native 2

exit

interface ethernet 1/16

switchport access native 2

exit

exit

[setup vlan3=port 10 and 24]

configure

interface ethernet 1/10

switchport access native 3

exit

interface ethernet 1/24

switchport access native 3

exit

exit

All others remain on the default VLAN1

When the devices are powered off, I'd suggest setting the VLAN for each back to the default VLAN1. Instead of using the 'native' command you could use the VLAN tag/untag. Using the tag and untag may be better because you can go through all the ports untagging them from a particular vlan before tagging the new ports.

For simplicity, it also makes sense to create a vlan for each transmitter since only one transmitter is permitted in each vlan.

It would be fun to make a driver for this.

[Nded]

nded: Can you give me an example of the commands used to dynamically create the VLAN on a particular switch? You'll need DriverWorks to create the driver.

I looked at the Netgear manual and got them impression that the command set was sytactically obtuse (if a Netgear rep wants to help me overcome this objection, I'm all ears). For now I'm hoping to get somebody to focus on the IC Intracom $249 MRSP 24 port switch. There is a PDF for the IC Intracom switch available at http://www.icintracom.com/global_catalog/manual/523554_manual.pdf .

Here are my quick observations from an implementation perspective (commands are listed in ASCII, but I can help convert to HEX if needed):

Page 17 - COMM settings are 115200, N, 8, 1

Page 18 - We can disable the password and timeout features, so the C4 RS232 connection can live "forever"

Page 20 - Setup/configuration of the number of transmitters is accomplished with the command "VLAN add <vidlist> [<portlist>]". The structured part of my brain says we should tell owners to start with putting their transmitters in port 1 and go "up" and put their receivers in port 24 and go "down". For example, if a client has purchased 5 transmitters (think of it as 5 HDMI channels), they plug them into ports 1-5 and the following 5 commands would be issued once to configure the switch:

VLAN add 1 1

VLAN add 2 2

VLAN add 3 3

VLAN add 4 4

VLAN add 5 5

Page 21 - Assigning the Receivers to the desired Transmitter VLAN channel is accomplished with the command "VLAN PVID [<portlist>] [<vid>]". Here are some examples of the commands that would need to happen "live" to change channels:

VLAN PVID 24 1 {port 24 watching channel 1}

VLAN PVID 24 2 {port 24 watching channel 2}

VLAN PVID 23 2 {port 23 watching channel 2 also}

VLAN PVID 16 5 {port 16 watching channel 5}

We have the talent in house to demonstrate this RS232 control with a basic Windows GUI at CEDIA, but I'd really like to partner up with a C4 implementation. Even if it wasn't fully populated for all the possible permutations. We haven't finalized the booth configuration yet, but my best estimate is that we will have 5 inputs, and 9 screens, so from a minimalist perspective, we would need to have 45 commands in the C4 driver for the show (ports 16 through 24 for the 9 Receivers, with 5 channel change commands for each port). We could manually initiate the 5 'VLAN add' commands to perform the initial setup.

I don't know what all is involved behind the scenes to build a C4 driver, but come on, 45 lines of already identified code can't be that hard to do. If the programming language supports variable arrays, then the subroutine to build the port/channel VLAN PVID command should only take a few minutes. It would be nice to have friendly names on the inputs/outputs (Blu-ray, Vudu, Living Room, Kitchen, Master Bedroom, etc...), but we could talk our way around the rough edges of the example C4 interface it if it just shows 5 inputs and 9 outputs.

Let's say a switch with 24 ports. All on the same VLAN. Now I want to do the following:

-VLAN1: ports 1, 5, and 16

-VLAN2: ports 10 and 24

-VLAN3: all the others

The manual indicates you can include multiple ports in a VLAN PVID command. I will have my hands on the switch on Tuesday, and will confirm the multiple port syntax. For now, here would be the line by line commands (ASCII not HEX) to do what you want in the example:

VLAN PVID 1 1

VLAN PVID 5 1

VLAN PVID 10 2

VLAN PVID 24 2

VLAN PVID 2 3

VLAN PVID 3 3

-

-

-

VLAN PVID 22 3

VLAN PVID 23 3

I'll try and download the manual for the netgear switch.

Well, if you can follow their command syntax go for it!

Another benefit to this approach is that input devices do not need to be centralized. For example, there may be a cable box in the living room, another in the bedroom and a DVD player in the den.

Don't forget the XBOX in the kid's bedroom, and the TIVO HD in the master suite. There's no practical limit to the number of receivers.

Another disadvantage is that each transmitter and receiver requires power, unlike other solutions that require power only at the transmitter end. Unless the transmitters and receivers support PoE?

Did you see our "Statement of Direction" for adding PoE to the solution?

Ed

Just Add Power

[bog]

It just dawned on me. Just Add Power transmitters and receivers are "over IP"? Baluns are not IP devices. With the VLANs changing all the time, either the devices have to be statically configured with an IP address or the switch configured to ensure the DHCP server on the network is tagged for all VLANs.

[Nded]

It just dawned on me. Just Add Power transmitters and receivers are "over IP"? Baluns are not IP devices. With the VLANs changing all the time, either the devices have to be statically configured with an IP address or the switch configured to ensure the DHCP server on the network is tagged for all VLANs.

The TX/RX devices have static IP's and do not care/bother with DHCP.

[thecodeman]

We will be showing the HDMI over IP solution at Cedia next month. Will anybody from this forum be there that could make an independent report back to the community?

Yes, I just looked at the CEDIA exhibitor list though and only saw Just Lamps, nothing for Just Add Power.

[bhadams]

TecNec booth

[Nded]

TecNec booth

We will have samples in the TecNec booth, but we are also planning a second booth with a full blown live installation with 5 inputs, and 9 display screens (assorted flavors). We have not yet reached an agreement with Cedia show management as to where this second booth will be. As soon as I know, I will post it here.

I look forward to meeting codeman and anybody else from C4FORUMS at the show.

[thecodeman]

TecNec booth

Cool, I put it on my planner and will be looking out for the other booth.

[Nded]

TecNec booth

Cool' date=' I put it on my planner and will be looking out for the other booth.[/quote']

The dedicated Just Add Power booth at CEDIA 09 is 5312. I look forward to meeting the C4Forums members in the booth.

We will be demonstrating an HDMI over IP Matrix. The 5 HDMI inputs are a PS3, an XBox 360, a Scientific Atlanta DVR, a Vudu BX100, and a Sony HDR-CX100 Camera. The 9 HDMI displays cover a wide range of sizes/resolutions from a Memorex 19" 720p screen to a Toshiba 47" 1080p screen. Here is a preliminary screen shot from the Windows GUI for the demonstration. You click on a "channel" below the screen, and the target display instantly changes to the selected source.

We also plan to show a Crestron interface controlling the system. I am waiting on a Crestron programmer to send me a snapshot of the Crestron interface he has written. We don't yet have a C4 interface lined up, but I have heard from several dealers/installers that are going to be at Cedia to see the system. I expect we will have a C4 driver quite soon.

[Deleted]

Did anyone turnup at the JAP site at CEDIA? How did the transmitters/receivers look and perform? Did anyone manage to write the drivers for the intellinet switch?

[thecodeman]

Did anyone turnup at the JAP site at CEDIA? How did the transmitters/receivers look and perform? Did anyone manage to write the drivers for the intellinet switch?

Not sure how you missed this thread:

http://c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?id=4002

But yes, we did, and it was awesome.

http://www.cepro.com/article/dealer_hdmi_over_ip_is_game_changing/

[Nded]

The dirt cheap intellinet switch was a nightmare to control with RS232. It worked with HDMI over IP, but I would not want to put anyone through the pains it caused when trying to write software to control it remotely.

[Deleted]

Excellent Codeman - sorry I didn't spot the other thead, I will have a look.

What do you reckon then Nded? Have you any recommendations? Do you think this is a goer, but probably with a different switch? It would so cool if we could get this going with C4.