HDBaseT and Ethernet Question

[Yang]

I recently purchased a house. I am currently reviewing the wiring of previous owner's Control4 system. Sorry that I am very new to the system and question is very basic.

I noticed at living room TV position (they took the TV already) it has two RJ45 connectors: one connects to a network switch; another one connects to a HDBaseT output (of Binary B-520-MTRX-230-8x8 HDMI Matrix). There are 5 speakers in this room. All controlled by Control4 in a media closet far away.

I am trying to understand how the Ethernet connection to TV is used. If I use TV to stream, does that mean I won't be able to send audio back to the amplifier that connects to media closet? (I am willing to share the detail of audio connection if needed. but I feel from high level, it seems not needed) Is it possible to use TV to *directly* video stream Netflix, Hulu, Disney+ to stream and still send audio signal to 5 speakers? I also want to have music stream. I assume it has to come from Control4 and send to speakers.

Or it is better to Control4 to receive the stream and use TV as a display only? In this mode, the thing confused me was why the TV even needs a Ethernet connection.

[Jeff W]

There is no right/wrong answers to this.  Just difference in preferences for dealers.

My preference is if you're having surround sound to leave out of a matrix situation so you can get best audio/video experience for that TV.  It will also save headaches with EDID problems.

• Connect a media player (AppleTV, Roku, Nvidia Shield), cable box, Blu-Ray (or whatever sources you want) to a home theater amplifier in the AV rack/closet
• Connect 5 speakers to the home theater amplifier
• Use the output of the home theater amplifier and hdmi balun to back of the TV (RJ jack 1)
• Select a IP controllable TV ie. Sony XBR-65X950H connect the TV to network (RJ jack 2)

The network jack for the TV is most likely used to control the TV via IP commands from Control4.  Ie, the Sony XBR series is very reliable and great way of having to control the TVs without IR.  

Doing it this way, you wouldn't use any streaming functions of the TV because they'd all be coming from the sources into the home theater amplifier.  

Like I said, there are other ways of doing it.  You could use an audio balun back to the AV rack but this presents different equipment scenarios etc etc.  I would recommend avoid using ARC.  For 1) it's not officially supported in Control4 2) may introduce additional headaches.  

In our designs, I want the most reliable, rock solid solution.  I find that the way listed above has been very reliable for all our installs.  

[Yang]

Thanks Jeff. I appreciate it.

My original thoughts was to take advantage the streaming function inside the new TV. Now I am leaning towards adding a new media player (either AppleTV or Roku) as you said.

One more thing unclear to me is when I searched for "netflix" at https://drivers.control4.com/, I saw a "Netflix (Universal)" driver. Can this driver enable Netflix stream inside Control4 EA-1 or HC800? Basically replace part of physically media player functions?

I also see "Amazon Music (Universal)" as well. If a dealer installs all of them in my controllers, do I still a physical media player?

[msgreenf]

5 hours ago, Yang said:

One more thing unclear to me is when I searched for "netflix" at https://drivers.control4.com/, I saw a "Netflix (Universal)" driver. Can this driver enable Netflix stream inside Control4 EA-1 or HC800? Basically replace part of physically media player functions?

no controllers are not media players.  The universal drivers are shortcuts to launch apps on Roku, Sony TV, LG TV, etc.

5 hours ago, Yang said:

I also see "Amazon Music (Universal)" as well. If a dealer installs all of them in my controllers, do I still a physical media player?

Any driver marked universal is a shortcut to app launch.  

But there is a native amazon music that can be added.  As long as you have a matrix, amp, c4 audio, then it works

[eggzlot]

There are native music streaming services

no native video services 

[Jeff W]

One advantage of using a media player on a home theater amplifier and a second unit on the matrix.  You create consistent UI on all the TVs.  If you use a netflix mini app on samsung, sony, LG.  And then use a roku / appleTV.  You could end up with different interfaces and it's not as smooth / easy as a unified experience.

Just more ideas for you to consider.

 

 

[lippavisual]

Media player is much better at streaming than any TV if you ask me.

Roku is under a $100.  I wouldn’t bother with AppleTV or Amazon devices.

[Yang]

Thanks everyone! Just placed an order of Roku Ultra.

[Yang]

Just want to double check my strategy is right before I pull the trigger on two more Rokus

Basically, I have 3 rooms will have TVs. The previous owner left a Binary B-520-MTRX-230-8x8 HDMI Matrix, which only supports 4k/30Hz video. The first question in my mind is if I should replace this old matrix to be something newer and support 4k/60Hz video? Does it really make any difference for watching movies from only streaming? I am buying latest TVs and feel a little disappointed if the source cannot go with 4k/60Hz - not sure if it matters though.

I see 3 possible strategies:

1. Go with Jeff's suggestion to make each room have a *dedicated* media player. In this way, I do not have to upgrade the video switcher. The switcher can still hook up an old Blu-Ray player I have and share it to other rooms. The benefit of this way is I get media player for each TV but does not cost much. It avoids all the potential issues Jeff mentioned and can achieve best reliability.

2. Upgrade the video switcher to support 4k/60Hz and put a *single* media player behind it. What I noticed was the new switcher seemed to cost quite a bit more than 3 Rokus. I do not see a lot of benefits of doing this as I do not have other 4k/60Hz sources. While I do have an old PS3 and plan to only use it in one room. I see it can easily go with #1 or with old switcher.

3. Do not upgrade video switcher and put a *single* Roku behind it. I would lose 4k/60Hz and potentially have other issues like EDID.

That said if my analysis is right, I am going to buy two more Rokus. By the way, I also noticed previous owner had labels for 3 Apple TVs, which might be for the same reason.

 

[zaphod]

7 hours ago, lippavisual said:

Media player is much better at streaming than any TV if you ask me.

Aren't they pretty much the same thing in some instances - like when you have a Roku TV? 

I have three Roku TVs and a couple of standalone Rokus and they are identical in terms of streaming functionality.  I am not sure if the Ultra has audio outs, but usually the TVs have analog and digital audio out that you can send back to an amp or matrix if needed.

[Yang]

23 minutes ago, zaphod said:

I am not sure if the Ultra has audio outs, but usually the TVs have analog and digital audio out that you can send back to an amp or matrix if needed.

Ultra has a HDMI out, no individual audio out.

[lippavisual]

10 hours ago, zaphod said:

Aren't they pretty much the same thing in some instances - like when you have a Roku TV? 

I have three Roku TVs and a couple of standalone Rokus and they are identical in terms of streaming functionality.  I am not sure if the Ultra has audio outs, but usually the TVs have analog and digital audio out that you can send back to an amp or matrix if needed.

Functionally yes.  Performance-wise, no.  I’m currently at a rental house in front of a RokuTV right now, that is hardwired and is giving the spinning circle of death and won’t load Netflix. 

[zaphod]

That more likely depends on the network than the TV.  I find no speed differences between by Roku TVs and my separate Roku devices.  And, as you imply, it is easier to use ethernet rather than wifi for your network connections which should be more reliable.

[lippavisual]

Processing specs are completely different. So yes, they are differences.

it’s definitely not the network either.

To each their own, I’m not a fan of using a TV other than as a video monitor. 

[Jeff W]

@Yang I liked to clarify my earlier post so everyone is on the same page.

I was trying to say that if a room has a home theater amplifier powering the speakers, we remove that room from the matrix and just run that room as separate sources.  (Sorry if that wasn't clear the first time.)

If you have multiple TV's and would like to watch the same source across any of the TV's then you can connect the other TVs to the matrix.  This is a great option.

We still do a lot of HDMI Matrix, we typically will connect 1-3 cables boxes, 1-3 AppleTVs (or other media streamer) and our NVR's to our HDMI matrix.  

For streaming content, just keep in mind it's heavily compressed.  One option, is to try connect everything up to the existing HDMI matrix and run it for a bit and see if you notice the 4K/30Hz.  I wouldn't stress too much about 'missing out'.  

[Yang]

Thanks Jeff for the clarification. In my case, I actually have an amplifier for each room - two Integra DTR 30.6 and one Denon AVR-X4400H. I do not need to watch same source across multiple TVs. Let me try 4K/30Hz first and see how it goes.

[LollerAgent]

10 hours ago, lippavisual said:

Processing specs are completely different. So yes, they are differences.

it’s definitely not the network either.

To each their own, I’m not a fan of using a TV other than as a video monitor. 

Eh - I have three "Roku TV" TV's in my house in "low priority" areas - 2 hardwired, 1 on WIFI.  It's VERY rare for them to do this.  In fact, I don't remember the last time it happened (other than known internet outages).  The browsing experience is definitely not as good (a bit slower) than my TV's with Roku Ultras, but it's 100% acceptable.  Agree with @zaphod, it's most likely a network related issue.. although I guess it depends on the brand/model.  Mine are all TCL 5+ series.

You're at a rental house, so presumably you don't have control over the network and it's potentially interfering neighbors, right?

[lippavisual]

Insignia Roku TVs.  It is a rental house but was able to login to the router and check things out.

Worst of all, it’s Spectrum for the ISP.

I’ll agree that TCL is a much better brand for RokuTV.  But I’ll still stand behind my statement of better performance from a dedicated player vs. built in TV apps. 

[zaphod]

13 hours ago, Jeff W said:

For streaming content, just keep in mind it's heavily compressed.  One option, is to try connect everything up to the existing HDMI matrix and run it for a bit and see if you notice the 4K/30Hz.  I wouldn't stress too much about 'missing out'.  

Isn't everything heavily compressed with lossy compression?  Almost all content from cable boxes is going to be 1080i or 720p at best and depending on your cable co it may be using very old compression technology like MPEG-2.  Whereas more streaming content is 4K and uses HEVC aka H.265. 

I wonder what looks better?  1080i content from a cable box, which may be even recompressed by your cable company, or 4k videofrom a streaming service.

I just found this, which is over a year old, but interesting (source:  https://www.flatpanelshd.com/flatforums/viewtopic.php?p=27322#p27322)

[Yang]

1 hour ago, zaphod said:

I just found this, which is over a year old, but interesting (source:  https://www.flatpanelshd.com/flatforums/viewtopic.php?p=27322#p27322)

Good Info. Looks like frame rate is 24 fps. As we are not talking about video games, does that mean 30Hz TV can handle it well?

[videostorm]

55 minutes ago, Yang said:

Good Info. Looks like frame rate is 24 fps. As we are not talking about video games, does that mean 30Hz TV can handle it well?

The only content that is 24 Hz are movies (regardless of player/service, only movies are shot in 24hz).   

Most streaming content is sent as 30Hz (or 25Hz in PAL countries).  It is usually converted by the player 60Hz.  Then TV also converts to the panel refresh (60/120/240hz etc).    PAL countries it is 50Hz/100Hz etc 

Where the frame rate conversion occurs doesn't really matter, although in general you want the TV to do it unless you have a really nice player (like Shield).

So 4K @ 30Hz for video distribution is good enough, unless it isn't HDCP 2.2 (because most sources won't send any 4K unless HDCP 2.2).

Eventually sports will be broadcast in 4Kp60 as they benefit from the full frame rate.

          

[Yang]

4 hours ago, videostorm said:

The only content that is 24 Hz are movies (regardless of player/service, only movies are shot in 24hz).   

Most streaming content is sent as 30Hz (or 25Hz in PAL countries).  It is usually converted by the player 60Hz.  Then TV also converts to the panel refresh (60/120/240hz etc).    PAL countries it is 50Hz/100Hz etc 

Where the frame rate conversion occurs doesn't really matter, although in general you want the TV to do it unless you have a really nice player (like Shield).

So 4K @ 30Hz for video distribution is good enough, unless it isn't HDCP 2.2 (because most sources won't send any 4K unless HDCP 2.2).

Eventually sports will be broadcast in 4Kp60 as they benefit from the full frame rate.

          

Thanks for the analysis. I will try this out.

[Jakelay]

From a less technical, end user standpoint, I’ll share my experience as it might help.

We originally had a component video matrix setup with a crestron system. It was bullet proof and we loved being able to watch the same shows if wife was upstairs and I got home late and was eating dinner but we wanted to watch at the same time. Component is infinitely easier on resolution switches, handshakes, etc. and we see delays with resolution changes, etc. and some of those handshakes issues periodically with our new matrix. I’m pretty sure that’s just the nature of HDMI and part of life but we don’t see the issues on our local sources.

When we updated to C4 last year, video matrix was a ‘necessity’ for us. It drove the cost and complexity up quite a bit for our install.

Honestly, I regret going that route.  We went with a matrix that does the 60hz 4:4:4, all the bells and whistles.

What I find now is that we almost never watch the same thing at the same time unless we’re in the same room and even though the specs are there, we can see a difference between the local source Apple TV and the matrix Apple TV’s. When we do watch the same things, we could replicate that by simply streaming from the different boxes since most of what we watch can be accessed online these days.

We have DirecTV without 4K (almost no useful 4K content being broadcast) and they can be ‘networked’ so you can share the DVR content regardless of location now. So the resolution issue is a non-factor with Tv watching. 

In my mind, if I were to do this again, I would use local sources ((ATV, Roku, etc) and skip the matrix. But I would probably stay away from using the TV based streaming services as the processors on those are usually slower (unless you’re using a top of the line TV and even then, I still haven’t had the same experience - just my opinion) and unless they are all the same TV, the Ui may be different as someone mentioned above.

So real life, I don’t think you’ll miss anything with the 30hz unless you’re in a theater room or video quality is extremely important and then I would suggest local sources in those areas.

I would say stick with what you’ve got, go for the local for the streaming boxes, see how it works and if you feel like you’re missing out, upgrade down the line. At least the wiring is there so the switch out could be easy and these are plenty of remote programmers on this site that are REALLY good that can help with programming it for you.

Just one end user’s experience but hope that helps a bit.  Good luck!

 

[Yang]

1 hour ago, Jakelay said:

In my mind, if I were to do this again, I would use local sources ((ATV, Roku, etc) and skip the matrix. But I would probably stay away from using the TV based streaming services as the processors on those are usually slower (unless you’re using a top of the line TV and even then, I still haven’t had the same experience - just my opinion) and unless they are all the same TV, the Ui may be different as someone mentioned above.

So real life, I don’t think you’ll miss anything with the 30hz unless you’re in a theater room or video quality is extremely important and then I would suggest local sources in those areas.

 

Thanks Jakelay! This is very helpful.

I have played two setups last a few weeks just to see the difference. I got exactly same conclusion as yours. What I end up doing is to Roku/ATV on amplifier directly and skip the matrix. Blu-ray player, security camera, etc. left on the matrix. My setup was pretty simple. I actually think if previous owner did not leave the matrix for me, I probably do not even need it because those sources are rarely used and I can treat them as local sources and leave them in one room.

Two other reasons that made me go with this setup were I notices the matrix seemed occasionally crash from time to time, like once per movie or something. When it crashes, the TVs shows snow signal. Another reason was I have two new TVs and one old TV. The old one has lower resolution. Using matrix is not easy to manage the EDID issue.

I also thought about using TV to streaming directly. In my wiring, on TV side, there are only two CAT cables, one for LAN, another one for video. The only way I can see is to use ARC to return audio to my amplifier. While looking at the price of the video extender with ARC feature, the cost actually more than ATV. So I did not go that route. If previous owner did not leave extenders, I would consider this route as well.

 

[Jakelay]

Glad it worked out for you. HDMI and EDID can be troublesome for sure.