New Installer/New House

[papimata]

Hello, I am a brand new certified installer of C4 equipment.

Have yet to do my first install as my company is currently

working on bids to get us some projects as our company

is mainly an electrical installer and not so much an audio/visual

company. (We usually hire them as subcontractors).

I am a licensed journeyman electrician, who has worked on

control type circuitry. However, as I am new to home automation

as well as audio/video circuitry I would like to pick the

heads of you veteran installers as what I should do as far as

running conduit as well as speaker wires and to where exactly

in a given room.

I would like to put the flat screen on what is now labeled as the

dining room wall in my floor plan. I would also like to put a

smaller flat screen above the fire place in the family room

opposite of the kitchen. The family room will now be the new

dining room. I am thinking of making the kitchen/dining area

into an audio zone with 4 in ceiling speakers. In wall speakers

beside the small flat screen above the fire place. The home

theatre area would have in wall surround speakers and perhaps

in wall subwoofer center channel speaker. The rears will be on

either side of the room. The living room I want to make a zone

with two larger in ceiling speakers with in wall speakers above

the fire place in that room. Another zone for the front patio

and a zone for the rear patio.

The loft will be above the detached garage. I will run a couple

pipes between the two buildings and of course cameras.

Now that I kinda know what I need or want does anyone out

there have some time to give me some advice? What would work

as far as conduit if I should even use it as well as what gauge

and type of speaker wire. Power wires should of course stay

away from signal wire, any other words of wisdom out there?

Thanks for taking the time to get thru the long read.

[henniae]

For conduit to the TVs I normally use "Smurf tube" like flexible conduit. Carlon make a similar product that is orange. Of course being an electrician you know to follow the local codes.

For speaker wire I normally use 14 ga. I have used 16 ga for budget jobs. For real long runs I have used 12 ga speaker wire.

For conduit between the buildings I usually use gray ridged PVC.

[3fingerbrown]

Put your in-ceiling speakers in some speaker boxes, you can buy them online, or make them out of mdf:

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/manual/sim_backer_box_installation_guide/

Otherwise the rooms above the in-ceiling speakers will be very loud from the sound below. Insulating areas where in-wall/ceiling speakers are located also helps sound isolation.

You may want to do a 5.1 audio system for main movie-viewing area. Velodyne makes a very good in-wall subwoofer, in two sizes.

Make sure you run lots of Cat5e, home run it to all TV/camera locations and component locations.

[diamonddesign]

We are not yet a Control4 installer (waiting on 2.0 for training and we are in no rush) but I wanted to provide some input with regard to the non-Control4 issues. And the following is just my opinions/suggestions:

If there is any significant distance between your rack and your speakers run 12-2. For the theater room, run 12-2 regardless of distance because I assume you will be at 100 watts per channel or higher.

The kitchen/dining area may not really need 4 speakers unless is covers a very large area. You may be surprised what output you can get from a quality in-ceiling speaker.

Speaking of quality, if you can go in-wall over in-ceiling in the theater, you should. There are plenty of choices that will fit in-wall and I know Speakercraft sells acoustic kits for most of their in-wall speakers to avoid building boxes if you want.

I do boxes for all theater/media room in-wall and in-ceiling speakers but typically not for kitchen/porch/etc. zones.

As the prior member said, Velodyne makes great in-wall sub solutions and you actually don't have to use their typical in-wall solutions (they have 2) as I'm doing a build right now with their in-floor/in-ceiling models which are a bit more powerful and can be used in-wall just fine if done properly.

I run Cat5e for slower connections like RS-232, etc. and run Cat6a for the high bandwidth stuff. The only problem with Cat6a (other than higher cost) is there is only 1 company (that I've found) that sells field terminaion connectors. Eventually they will be much easier to come by. If you do a bit of "overkill" now on headroom, etc., the conduit isn't quite as critical.

[papimata]

Thanks for all the replies.

I will reduce the number of in ceiling speakers

in the kitchen/dining room as diamond design

suggested as it is a smaller space. Should I free-air

the speaker wire within the ceiling cavity as well

the crawl space and leave conduit for the cameras

and perhaps the video. Can I just go with the

5.1 surround receiver to pump out another audio

zone in the living room and have it play the same

music play as with the rest of the house?

I will also run a conduit from the attic to the crawl

space. The conduit will stop at the rack and continue

down to the crawl space.

Haven't decided on what kind of equipment(speakers, amps, receivers) to use

other than the control 4 stuff right now. I am concentrating

more on getting the wire there and figuring that out later.

I will take any suggestions on equipment however.

thanks guys

[C4CPA]

You may want to do a 5.1 audio system for main movie-viewing area. Velodyne makes a very good in-wall subwoofer, in two sizes.

Make sure you run lots of Cat5e, home run it to all TV/camera locations and component locations.

How many Cat5 cables do you run to each TV? I had one person tell me they ran 3 Cat5 cables to each TV. What do you think?

[tigrzeye]

4 or 5.

I currently have the TV, Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, and HC300 in my living room connected to the network. If I had satellite TV service I would need another as well. I ran a single Cat5 line (pre-existing home) and used a 5 port switch. Works fine but home runs are considered to be the best way.

[henniae]

4 or 5.

Works fine but home runs are considered to be the best way.

What makes you say that? Most networks are build from multiple switches.

[thecodeman]

4 or 5.

Works fine but home runs are considered to be the best way.

What makes you say that? Most networks are build from multiple switches.

Two for a balun like component or hdmi, one for control, one for network, spare...

[tigrzeye]

Home runs make it easier to diagnose if there is a problem. It's either the one switch or the wire run to equipment X or Y.

If you daisy chain switches it could be the first switch or maybe the second switch or maybe the wiring from switch 3 to switch 4. Or maybe the wire from switch 3 to equipment X or Y. etc.

Is there signal degradation or speed loss in using multiple switches? I read articles saying both yes and no. I don't have a problem in my case in using multiple switches. But I have always been taught that home runs "technically" are best.

update: while reviewing my Tech I training materials I came across the following C4 suggestions concerning networking and switches:

. Wire the Primary Controller to the main router.

. Wire all Control4 devices to the same Switch.

. Do not cascade Switches (one Switch connected to another to another, etc.).

[bebster]

Depending on the layout of the kitchen/dining room, you may want to have 4 speakers just for stereo coverage. Just 2 speakers might put some people close to the left channel and away from the right channel so all they hear is one channel. With 4 speakers this is less the case.

[diamonddesign]

One thing on the equipment, you may consider what equipment you are going to transfer your video/audio and control with before doing the network wiring. For instance, you can buy HDMI converter/extenders with RS232 on the same run (2 Cat5e or Cat6) so you wouldn't need a third run for control in that instance. Also some are now shipping bi-directional IR on the same run as well. In those cases, 2 runs would run your audio, video, and control.

Also, if all of your equipment is centrally located, you shouldnt need to run 4 or 5 because your blu ray player, etc. wont be at the TV it will be in the rack. Not saying one way is right over the other I'm just saying that try to plan out your connections and where the equipment will be so you have enough runs but also not wasting 2 or 3 runs as well.

Also dont try and do too much with your receiver in Zone 2. I had to go work on a Denon this Sunday where the homeowner was putting too much to Zone 2 and putting it into protection. If you're buying the Control4 amp I think it includes enough zones to hande your project but I dont know much about the Control4 products yet so someone else can help you there.

[henniae]

I ran 4 cat-5e and 1 rg6 to each TV location in my house.

To my main TV in the family I ran 4 cat-5 and 1 rg6 to a outlet behind the tv that I hung on the wall and a second set of 4 cat-5e and 1 rg6 to the media cabinet that is under the TV. I also ran a HDMI cable from the TV to the equipment closet. It is only 40 feet from the TV to the equipment closet in the basement.

So for the TV on the wall I have 2 cat-5e for video to the TV from the equipment room, 1 Cat-5e for network to the TV and 1 cat-5e for control to the TV and an RG6 for what ever I need.

For the media cabinet below the TV I have 2 cat-5e to send the bluray down to the equipment room, 1 cat5e for network on the media cabinet and 1 cat-5e for control in the media cabinet and an RG6 for what ever I need.

[papimata]

Hi everyone,

Once again thanks for all the advice.

So correct me if I am wrong, I should run 12/2 for most of my speaker runs and definitely for the home theatre speakers and subwoofer. I am thinking of running conduit to my camera locations and perhaps even to the walls

where my tv's will be for future like hdmi or even if I have to pull an extra cat 5 etc.

I will go back to my original plan of putting four speakers in the kitchen/dining so I can separate them into two zones. What size of speaker would you recommend for a smaller space like mine.

I also run a conduit into the wall cavity where I may put a touch screen in the future. Not to forget the conduit to the

attic so that I can wire anything up on the second floor thru the attic. Probably run about three one inch pipes, one for 120v, one for speaker, and one for signal. If I put a second controller in my master bed it will run the speakers

in the room so I don't have to run a zone to my bed. Am I correct in assuming this?

Anything else you can suggest? It's driving me nuts thinking if I am missing something.

thanks again guys.

[henniae]

So correct me if I am wrong, I should run 12/2 for most of my speaker runs and definitely for the home theatre speakers and subwoofer.

12/2 for ceiling and in wall speaker for whole house audio is a good idea.

For theater speakers I would run 12/2 for surrounds. I sometimes run 12/4 for front and center speaker on the higher end theaters in case I ever want to bi-amp the front left and right or center.

For the sub it depends if the sub is line level or uses an eternal amp. If the sub is line level I will run either a RG-59 solid copper center or a line level type wire like UltraLink Sub-250.

I am thinking of running conduit to my camera locations

This seems like over kill. Most cams require coax and external power or use cat-5e/cat-6 and POE.

and perhaps even to the walls where my tv's will be for future like hdmi or even if I have to pull an extra cat 5 etc.

It is useful to have conduit to TV locations for pulling additional wire in the future. If you do pull conduit to the TV locations use at least 2" conduit and leave the conduit empty, except for maybe a pull string. Run any wire that you will install now along the conduit path. Leave the conduit empty for future use since you can easily pull wire while the walls are open.

I will go back to my original plan of putting four speakers in the kitchen/dining so I can separate them into two zones. What size of speaker would you recommend for a smaller space like mine.

If you do use 2 pair of speakers in the kitchen it might be a good idea to home run each speaker to your equipment closet. This way you can hook the to one zone of an amp now but seperate them in the future if you need to.

I also run a conduit into the wall cavity where I may put a touch screen in the future.

This is not a bad idea.

Not to forget the conduit to the attic so that I can wire anything up on the second floor thru the attic. Probably run about three one inch pipes, one for 120v, one for speaker, and one for signal.

1 inch is a bit small. I usually use 2 inch. We install vacuums so we usually use vac pipe for runs from floor to floor. Whatever you do keep the paths for 120v away from your signal cable.

If I put a second controller in my master bed it will run the speakers

in the room so I don't have to run a zone to my bed. Am I correct in assuming this?

This can be done. For maximum flexibility I sometimes loop the speaker wire in the wall and then run it down to the equipment closet. This way If I want to have a local amp in the bedroom I can just cut the wire. If I want a whole house amp in the equipment closet I have the wire installed.

Anything else you can suggest? It's driving me nuts thinking if I am missing something.

thanks again guys.

My mantra is "Over wire and use conduit. If you plan on owning this place for a while the extra $$ spent on future proofing could be worth the effort.

[akg4y]

I know people tend to prefer ceiling speakers for aesthetic reasons, and that is a consideration, but after having experienced ceiling vs wall speaker installation I would recommend doing wall installation of speakers if the aesthetic component doesnt bother you. It give a much fuller sound, and the audio can come from nearly ear level, as opposed to 'falling' down to you.

If ceiling speaker placement is a must then I recommend placing the speakers as close to the walls as possible so that for the most part when in a room you are always between speakers and not immediately below one.

[maniac36]

Depending on the layout of the kitchen/dining room, you may want to have 4 speakers just for stereo coverage. Just 2 speakers might put some people close to the left channel and away from the right channel so all they hear is one channel. With 4 speakers this is less the case.

You can also get dual voice coil speakers eliminating the need for 2 or even 4 speakers. Both left and right channels come out of the same speaker. Personally, I like the sleekness of one speaker in "non traditional" audio areas rather than 2 or 4 speaker holes cut into the ceiling. My 2 cents.

[bebster]

dual voice coil speakers eliminating the need for 2 or even 4 speakers.

I agree they are a good alternative. They allow you to place one speaker in the ceiling in the middle of the room. But they are a bit pricey usually, but in a couple of places I've found them to be ideal.

In some rooms with 2 speakers where I'm concerned about hearing too much of one speaker (eg in the kitchen where you might be working for a while on one side), I've run a pair of speaker wires between the 2 speakers. That way I could always upgrade the speakers to dual-voice coil speakers and solve that.

[papimata]

I have another couple of questions if you guys don't mind giving me your input.

Can I put the controllers for the tv in a rack even though it is servicing a tv outside of the room in which the rack is situated. Say for instance if the rack is in my main tv viewing area and the controller for the tv in the dining/kitchen room is in the rack. If this is possible will I then need to run 2 cat5e for video using what you call baluns for hdmi? Also one cat5e for audio, and also one for control? Or can I run one cat6 in place of the two cat5e for video. and perhaps one for spare.

So either 5 cat5e (one spare) or 1xcat6 and 3 cat5e. The speaker will still be a home run back to the rack and amp.

If this scenario does not work and I need to place the controller within the same room that the tv is in what do I need to run to the controller from the rack. Also if the tv is sitting right above the controller, should I then use the audio out of the controller to the tv? or the in wall speakers beside the tv? or will they have to go to an amp first.

I like the idea of the controller on the rack if that is all possible and just running the connects to the tv and speakers from the rack, ie home run as much as possible.

thanks again

[akg4y]

Yes you can put the controller wherever you want as long as you have the appropriate wiring and connections available (ie IR control or serial control to the TV, component video to the TV or receiver, audio to the receiver, etc).

For HDMI if you use the Just add Power solution you just need 1 cat5e, but in general after having done my house I would recommend running at least 3 cat5e or 2 cat6 to each location just in case.

[pirotlert]

what is this 12/2 or 12-2 ?

Is it two 12 ga under the same jacket?

Can anybody clarify?

How does it help improve the quality?

thanks

[jberger]

12/2 is 2 conductor or 1 pair of 12ga wire. Enough for one speaker.

12/4 is 4 conductor or 2 pair of 12ga wire. Enough for 2 speakers.

12ga is likely overkill for most pre-wire, unless the length or equipment quality warrants its application.

14ga is a suitable for almost all applications while 16ga is used for mostly background audio or shorter run.

The larger the wire gauge (AWG the lower number is larger), the less wattage is lost to resistance between the amplifier and speaker.

[pirotlert]

thanks jberger

[jralime]

I have to agree with most of what is said above. I can not emphasize enough the merits of running extra wire! Personally I prefer to see a minimum of 3 CAT5e cables and 3 RG6 (coax) runs to a TV location. My preference is actually a bit more, but this allows you the option of sending component video direct to the TV (For Video Distribution), or sending Stereo audio back to the rack for an audio input into C4 or an audio matrix switch. As well as sending IR control, Network, and/or HDMI baluns, etc. If you need to skimp on the wiring, lose the RG6 and put in an extra CAT5e run. Pretty much anything can be run over some sort of CAT5e balun now days.

Putting in a 5.1 receiver for the family room is a great idea. This can also serve as the audio source in that room for C4, you don't need to add extra speakers or use a C4 amp. Just hook the output of a controller into one of the inputs on the receiver. However, I would NOT use any multi zone capabilities of ANY receiver. It just won't work as well with C4, regardless of how well it works on its own, it always causes problems (I've written a couple of drivers for receivers and always include the multi-zone options in the driver, so I've dealt with several. Regardless of how well the driver is written, it always takes careful programming and experience to get it to work in the system after that)

I'd also look at your camera system very carefully before making final decisions. There are a few questions you need to ask yourself. 1) Does it need to integrate into C4 & 4sight (this can be a great benefit) 2) Does it need to record (great for security) A lot of the cameras that integrate into C4 don't necessarily work as well with a DVR and so it can be difficult to design a system that does both well.

A note on Networking and how it works. Not only is it easier to troubleshoot if you do home runs to a single network switch, but you also get better overall system performance. The reason is due to how the switch works. Unlike a hub a switch has the ability to detect which ports are talking to one another and isolate the traffic between them. This means that when my C4 speaker point on port 1 is talking to my controller on port 2, only ports 1 and 2 "see" that traffic and are using bandwidth. This means that when my computer on port 4 is then streaming a video to my apple TV on port 5 it still has full bandwidth 100/1000 mbit depending on your switch, even though C4 is streaming music. If however you cascade your switches you then end up throttling some of your traffic. Because you only have a single 100/1000 connection between switches. For example. If my Speaker Point is connected to port 1 on switch 2 and my Controller is on port 1 of switch 1 It then has to travel from port 1 to whatever port switch 2 is plugged into and then to port 1 on switch 2. This is fine and causes no problems or speed issues until we start our streaming on the Apple TV. If the Apple TV is connected to port 2 on switch 2 and the computer is plugged into port 2 on switch 1. When we start this stream we now have both the audio stream from C4 and the iTunes video stream that have to traverse the SINGLE 100/1000 connection between switches, since the switch can't magically make the connection faster, this bandwidth has to be shared.

In most corporate environments this type of "sharing" is pretty limited, because we tend to talk to devices that are nearby and thus on the same switch. 90% of the time I'm going to print to the network printer in the same room as me. And for larger business and universities this is also less of a problem because my switches are usually connected with fiber or some other form of high bandwidth connection which will allow for full 100/1000 or close to it for each request.

Most homes also don't have enough traffic for it to matter. However with multiple C4 audio streams and in many cases multiple video streams all going through the network...cascading switch often works, but it can often overload the connection between switches, causing things to slow down and stutter. This is also one of many reasons why I hardwire absolutely everything possible. The more Speaker Points and computers you have running wireless the less bandwidth may be available to the device.

I know this is a bit long winded, but I hope it helps clarify a few things. Cascading network switches will usually work, but it's better to avoid it if possible.

Robert

[C4CPA]

jralime

I am in the planning stage for a new house and I am planning on installing a C4 system. But the cost of a video distribution system is more than expected or want to spend now. I can afford to run all the wiring I need. So you suggest I run 3 Cat5 cables and 3 coax cables to each TV location. I suppose I could use one of the coax cables now for basic cable and then when I get ready to install the video distribution system I could use the cat5 cables. Is this correct. What do you usually use the 3 coax cables for?

Also what about the motorized blinds? What type of cable do you run so that you can install the motorized blinds in the future? Do these also run off of a cat 5 cable?