How hard is it to swap out routers?

[pinkoos]

Hi, we've been having ongoing network/connectivity problems for over a year. In fact, it's been going on so long I don't even remember if it's a year or year and a half or even longer

I've posted about various issues here during that time, I'm sure you can find my older posts about this

Basically, we lose connection every few days and, sometimes, multiple times throughout the day (latest yesterday and this morning)

Some devices lose connection to the internet whereas others do not; some are wired and some are wireless

There's no apparent rhyme or reason to any of this

I've had Comcast out 4 times, they've done thorough checks and couldn't find anything on their end each time

My dealer has come out one time and got on the horn with Araknis while he was on site to try and troubleshoot

They've tweaked some settings in the router config here and there but nothing has worked

We've tried changing DNS, I've pulled my Sonos system off the network for a period of time to see if the issue went away (surprise, it didn't) and then connected it to a Sonos Boost so it's on its own SonosNet to try and minimize Sonos causing a problem

I've tried swapping out modems (again, no effect)

Anyway, we're to the point where my dealer said we can finally try changing out the router

I have all Araknis hardware (router, switch, POE switch 4 WAPs)

He's going to try and come out next week and swap out the router with either a Pakedge he has laying around or, I think he also mentioned he has a Netgear that we can try

He's suggested that I should just get and use Xfinity's router/wifi gateway, but I'm afraid he's just tired of dealing with this issue and wants me to use the Xfinity equipment so that Xfinity would have to troubleshoot any issues going forward (I'm just speculating)

 

So, my question:  if I just buy a high end router on my own, how difficult would it be for me to swap it out and try it out?

I'm guessing that my dealer has configured the Araknis with different personalized settings in the config (static IP addresses for certain devices, etc.)

Is there a way to download or copy that config and try to reproduce in any new router's config

Also, how bad is it to mix and match hardware? At this point, we would just be switching routers, so all the remaining hardware would still be Araknis

Would the switch, POE switch and WAPs still be able to play nicely with a Pakedge or Netgear or whatever router?

Lastly, I'm guessing that as long as I set up the new router with the same SSID and password, all devices should be able to connect to it without having to reconnect or re-enter that info into each device

Thanks

[eggzlot]

4 minutes ago, pinkoos said:

Hi, we've been having ongoing network/connectivity problems for over a year. In fact, it's been going on so long I don't even remember if it's a year or year and a half or even longer

I've posted about various issues here during that time, I'm sure you can find my older posts about this

Basically, we lose connection every few days and, sometimes, multiple times throughout the day (latest yesterday and this morning)

Some devices lose connection to the internet whereas others do not; some are wired and some are wireless

There's no apparent rhyme or reason to any of this

I've had Comcast out 4 times, they've done thorough checks and couldn't find anything on their end each time

My dealer has come out one time and got on the horn with Araknis while he was on site to try and troubleshoot

They've tweaked some settings in the router config here and there but nothing has worked

We've tried changing DNS, I've pulled my Sonos system off the network for a period of time to see if the issue went away (surprise, it didn't) and then connected it to a Sonos Boost so it's on its own SonosNet to try and minimize Sonos causing a problem

I've tried swapping out modems (again, no effect)

Anyway, we're to the point where my dealer said we can finally try changing out the router

I have all Araknis hardware (router, switch, POE switch 4 WAPs)

He's going to try and come out next week and swap out the router with either a Pakedge he has laying around or, I think he also mentioned he has a Netgear that we can try

He's suggested that I should just get and use Xfinity's router/wifi gateway, but I'm afraid he's just tired of dealing with this issue and wants me to use the Xfinity equipment so that Xfinity would have to troubleshoot any issues going forward (I'm just speculating)

 

So, my question:  if I just buy a high end router on my own, how difficult would it be for me to swap it out and try it out?

I'm guessing that my dealer has configured the Araknis with different personalized settings in the config (static IP addresses for certain devices, etc.)

Is there a way to download or copy that config and try to reproduce in any new router's config

Also, how bad is it to mix and match hardware? At this point, we would just be switching routers, so all the remaining hardware would still be Araknis

Would the switch, POE switch and WAPs still be able to play nicely with a Pakedge or Netgear or whatever router?

Lastly, I'm guessing that as long as I set up the new router with the same SSID and password, all devices should be able to connect to it without having to reconnect or re-enter that info into each device

Thanks

I have a Mikrotik router,  Cisco Switches and Unifi APs.  It’s a mishmash but it works 100% just fine.  So yes you can mix vendors.  Sure there are nice dashboards with at least Unifi that if I had all Unifi products I could see the performance of all devices in 1 shot.  Is that pretty - sure, do i I have a need for it, no.

When you replace your router you’ll need to make sure your new router follows the same IP Scheme,  is your dealer using Static IP, a DHCP reservation in the router, SDDP or a combination of (needs to be a combo since SDDP isn’t on every device).  

So yes you can mix hardware but if your TV is at 192.168.1.20 and its IP controlled, when you put your new router in, your TV still needs to be at that same IP address.  

[JAY70]

If you're referring to just the router and not the modem/router/ap combo units provided by ISP's, it's not terrible. If your replacing one with the the same make/model you can simply download the conifg file and upload it to the new one. It gets more complicated from there.

[RAV]

Ask your dealer for the IP scheme and if there are reservations and what they are.
Then install you own and follow the same information.

[evil0ne]

You'll want a list of all the IPs on your network. You should be able to export it or use a tool like Fing to scan your network. Then setup the new router, use that IP scheme, reserve those IPs and make sure your SSID name/password are the same and you'll be 95% back in business.

[LollerAgent]

27 minutes ago, evil0ne said:

You'll want a list of all the IPs on your network. You should be able to export it or use a tool like Fing to scan your network. Then setup the new router, use that IP scheme, reserve those IPs and make sure your SSID name/password are the same and you'll be 95% back in business.

More so, you will also want a list of MACs associated with any DHCP reservations you have on your old router, so that you can re-create them on your new router.

[zaphod]

5 hours ago, evil0ne said:

You'll want a list of all the IPs on your network. You should be able to export it or use a tool like Fing to scan your network. Then setup the new router, use that IP scheme, reserve those IPs and make sure your SSID name/password are the same and you'll be 95% back in business.

I have a Fingbox and the Fing app.  There are other tools that you can use to scan your network as well.  Look for a Windows program called WakeMeOnLan.exe.

Typing "arp -a" in Windows will also give IP addresses and MACs but that isn't overly friendly.

 

[pinkoos]

Appreciate all the replies so far, thank you

[Andrew luecke]

I think you're potentially taking the wrong approach here. 

 

1. Network visibility is everything. Ensure every device is connected to the switch directly (do not daisy chain devices off other switches unless they are managed), and turn on STP, and DHCP Guarding (I can't remember if Araknis supports this). Turn off wireless on the router.  STP prevents loops, DHCP guards protect against any devices which may be acting as Rogue DHCP servers.  

2. Watch if there is a correlation between when the problems happen.. If the problems happen mainly on hot days or wet days, it's likely ISP. No, they probably won't find anything lol 

3. You need to determine if the connection is dropping out at the router, or past the router. You can do a ping routerIP, and ping 8.8.8.8 (Google). If the router IP drops, router is busted.. if Google drops, it's internet.   

4. You MAY have a IP Conflict as others have said. If you use ARP and the MAC address flips back and forth for an IP, it's definitely a conflict. Use DHCP reservations

Honestly, if only some devices lose access to Internet, this sounds like a rogue DHCP server messing things up..

[pinkoos]

8 minutes ago, Andrew luecke said:

I think you're potentially taking the wrong approach here. 

 

1. Network visibility is everything. Ensure every device is connected to the switch directly (do not daisy chain devices off other switches unless they are managed), and turn on STP, and DHCP Guarding (I can't remember if Araknis supports this). Turn off wireless on the router.  STP prevents loops, DHCP guards protect against any devices which may be acting as Rogue DHCP servers.  

2. Watch if there is a correlation between when the problems happen.. If the problems happen mainly on hot days or wet days, it's likely ISP. No, they probably won't find anything lol 

3. You need to determine if the connection is dropping out at the router, or past the router. You can do a ping routerIP, and ping 8.8.8.8 (Google). If the router IP drops, router is busted.. if Google drops, it's internet.   

4. You MAY have a IP Conflict as others have said. If you use ARP and the MAC address flips back and forth for an IP, it's definitely a conflict. Use DHCP reservations

Honestly, if only some devices lose access to Internet, this sounds like a rogue DHCP server messing things up..

Thanks, this is really helpful info, though some of it is above my head LOL

I can try and pass this on to my dealer to see if he can verify some of the settings you suggested and/or implement those settings 

It's just been so long as I mentioned and these constant outages have really disrupted our lives, constant rebooting of modems, routers, switches that we're at our wits' end

Comcast is not going to do anything as they've been out multiple times, checked the lines inside and out and even yesterday I got on the line with them *during* a network crash to see if they can see anything on their end and it all looked fine on their end

I believe my dealer is getting frustrated too (I don't blame him really)

Regarding your bullet points:

1. I'll have to log into the switch and check for DHCP guarding; I believe STP is on already. Unfortunately, we have a few unmanaged switches downstream

2. I've tried monitoring based on weather, etc. but couldn't find a correlation

3. I don't know how to ping the router, I'll google how to do that during the next outage (if I'm home) and see what happens

4. I believe we have many devices with DHCP reservations but not all; I don't know how to check if we're using ARP

By rogue DHCP server, what do you mean - one of my devices is acting as a server - is there anyway to tell that in the router or switch config?

Thanks

[Andrew luecke]

4 minutes ago, pinkoos said:

Thanks, this is really helpful info, though some of it is above my head LOL

I can try and pass this on to my dealer to see if he can verify some of the settings you suggested and/or implement those settings 

It's just been so long as I mentioned and these constant outages have really disrupted our lives, constant rebooting of modems, routers, switches that we're at our wits' end

Comcast is not going to do anything as they've been out multiple times, checked the lines inside and out and even yesterday I got on the line with them *during* a network crash to see if they can see anything on their end and it all looked fine on their end

I believe my dealer is getting frustrated too (I don't blame him really)

Regarding your bullet points:

1. I'll have to log into the switch and check for DHCP guarding; I believe STP is on already. Unfortunately, we have a few unmanaged switches downstream

2. I've tried monitoring based on weather, etc. but couldn't find a correlation

3. I don't know how to ping the router, I'll google how to do that during the next outage (if I'm home) and see what happens

4. I believe we have many devices with DHCP reservations but not all; I don't know how to check if we're using ARP

By rogue DHCP server, what do you mean - one of my devices is acting as a server - is there anyway to tell that in the router or switch config?

Thanks

Rogue DHCP means you have multiple devices acting like routers on your network (I've seen cases where people have plugged in the wrong NVR Port, or used routers as wireless boosters incorrectly. It's subtle, but it can cause devices to drop off over time because they IP conflict with the other router or end up with an IP on the wrong range.

Rogue DHCP protection / DHCP Guarding works by configuring the switches to only allow the device you allow to do DHCP. 

 

If your problem has been happening for a while and you have the money, I recommend you swap all switches with managed and enable STP/Rogue DHCP protection honestly if you can.. Just to be more sure. 

 

Also, ISP's will never say it's a fault.. In my case here in Australia, the ISP "monitored" my issue for months until I went to the Telco ombudsman

 

 

 

[pinkoos]

Hi excuse my ignorance but is the possibility of a rogue DHCP server limited to only wired devices to any of the switches or could a wireless device be causing this problem as well

Is there any way to look through the router config and tell which device could be causing this?

[ekohn00]

53 minutes ago, pinkoos said:

Hi excuse my ignorance but is the possibility of a rogue DHCP server limited to only wired devices to any of the switches or could a wireless device be causing this problem as well

Is there any way to look through the router config and tell which device could be causing this?

wired or wireless wouldn't matter.

Rouge in the "bad" sense should be almost non-existent on home networks, after all you typically know what's connected. Chances are that if there was a rouge DHCP server, you probably have have an extra WAP/Router and didn't realize it was turned on or maybe a switch with the capability of DHCP and didn't realize it was configured.

Anyway the simplest method (other than physically identifying the server and logging in to see if DHCP is on) is to simply run a sniffer like Wireshark and on a computer send out a DHCP request. If you see multi answers, one of these may be a rouge DHCP server.

[Topspin14m]

Are you 100% sure you pulled all Sonos devices off the system (including the Boost) and the problem was still happening?  Meaning you physically removed the Ethernet cord or power cord from all Sonos devices?  I ask because I had very similar issues (also with Araknis equipment initially-then other routers I tried) and his really sounds like a classic spanning tree problem that won’t be fixed by swapping routers.  It only takes one Sonos loop back to cause the problem. 
 

If Sonos isn’t the issue, you may have another switch that is creating a loop back.  If it is Sonos, there are ways to fix it, but the easiest is to set up all Sonos products as wireless (pull the Ethernet cord out of all of them).  Then the issue should go away immediately (because you no longer have a loop back via Ethernet). 
 

I agree it could also be a DHCP problem.   The simple way of putting it is that you only want one router issuing DHCP (IP addresses) to your devices (unless you know what you are doing and set it up so that they issue IP addresses in different ranges).  Otherwise you can have two routers fighting each other for the same range of IP addresses and that can cause the network to crash. 

[pinkoos]

Yes basically I had two Beams, 3 SLs and a Roam on an S2 network

And 1 old Connect on its own on an S1 network (hardwired by Ethernet to Araknis switch)

At one point my dealer had me completely unplug the S1 Connect and see if the problem recurred, it did

Then, I pulled the plug on the SLs and Roam and confirmed that the two Beams were connected via Wi-Fi only (I couldn’t completely disconnect the Beams from use as we need those for TV viewing), the problem recurred

I’ve since sold off the SLs and Roam and bought a used 2nd gen Play 5 and bought a Sonos Boost so that all S2 Sonos products are on its own SonosNet network

So this is what my Sonos S2 setup looks like right now:

Boost hardwired to router, 2 Beams and Play 5 connected to the SonosNet network (none of them hardwired)

My S1 setup:

Sonos Connect hardwired to Araknis 24 port switch

Do you see any issues with this setup that could potentially be the cause of my network woes?

Thanks

[ekohn00]

5 minutes ago, pinkoos said:

 

So this is what my Sonos S2 setup looks like right now:

 

I'm not sure if it's clean to me....

You mentioned Comcast....  do you have a Comcast Router/Box going to another Router or direct to a switch? Only asking because if you're using the cheap as Comcast box for anything other then COAX to Ethernet (ie Bridge code), it's very possible with all the devices and music streams etc, that box "hiccups" due to the stress of DHCP and nat/pat, etc etc......   Or maybe you just get hiccups on Comcast cable due to neighbors playing Call of Duty

 

[Topspin14m]

12 minutes ago, pinkoos said:

Yes basically I had two Beams, 3 SLs and a Roam on an S2 network

And 1 old Connect on its own on an S1 network (hardwired by Ethernet to Araknis switch)

At one point my dealer had me completely unplug the S1 Connect and see if the problem recurred, it did

Then, I pulled the plug on the SLs and Roam and confirmed that the two Beams were connected via Wi-Fi only (I couldn’t completely disconnect the Beams from use as we need those for TV viewing), the problem recurred

I’ve since sold off the SLs and Roam and bought a used 2nd gen Play 5 and bought a Sonos Boost so that all S2 Sonos products are on its own SonosNet network

So this is what my Sonos S2 setup looks like right now:

Boost hardwired to router, 2 Beams and Play 5 connected to the SonosNet network (none of them hardwired)

My S1 setup:

Sonos Connect hardwired to Araknis 24 port switch

Do you see any issues with this setup that could potentially be the cause of my network woes?

Thanks

I know you tried it previously, but I’d try one last time unplugging the Ethernet from both the Sonos Connect and the Boost.  Make 100% sure no Sonos products have any Ethernet plugged into them.  You don’t need SonosNet if you have a bunch of APs/good Wi-Fi coverage.  
 

Also triple check no one hard wired your Beams (you may know you don’t have Ethernet there, but if you do, I once had someone plug one in when they saw the cord dangling a little and boom all my internet got knocked out every hour or less). 

[pinkoos]

No Comcast hardware in our house at all

[pinkoos]

So my understanding was that the Boost/SonosNet would offload all Sonos processing from my network essentially making it impossible for a Sonos storm to be the cause of my problems, is that wrong?

[Topspin14m]

4 minutes ago, pinkoos said:

No Comcast hardware in our house at all

If you have FIOS, and are using a FIOS router plus the Araknis, I’d make sure only one is throwing out a DCHP (make sure the FIOS isn’t).  FIOS doesn’t have a great bridge mode so make sure you check the settings and that DCHP is really off. That’s another obvious thing that would cause this. 

[pinkoos]

No FIOS, only Comcast coming in through coaxial

[Topspin14m]

10 minutes ago, pinkoos said:

So my understanding was that the Boost/SonosNet would offload all Sonos processing from my network essentially making it impossible for a Sonos storm to be the cause of my problems, is that wrong?

That’s wrong.  It’s just another wireless protocol that allows the Sonos products to communicate wirelessly, thus making it so that you can extend the Sonos network through having multiple Sonos devices (i.e., each Beam becomes an access point).  When they say that, they mean it takes them off your wifi, but they still get IP addresses from your router.

If you have an Ethernet loop or problem caused by the way things are hardwired into a managed switch, inserting a Boost won’t fix that. 
 

Sonos created their system at a time when not many people had switches and multiple access points in their homes.  Now all us smart home folks have emerged and it causes all kinds of problems.  You can hardwire their stuff but you have to set up the spanning tree settings on every Ethernet switch correctly.  And it is tricky.  That’s why I just didn’t even bother. 
 

[Topspin14m]

45 minutes ago, pinkoos said:

No FIOS, only Comcast coming in through coaxial

Is the cable modem you are using just a cable modem or is it a modem/router/wifi combo?  If the former, then I agree that can't be the issue.  If the latter, you just want to make sure it's in bridge mode.

[ekohn00]

1 hour ago, pinkoos said:

No FIOS, only Comcast coming in through coaxial

ok... so how do you go COAX to Ethernet? Above you said there’s no Comcast boxes   

 

[pinkoos]

The cable modem is just a store bought Motorola SB something or another, it’s just a modem 

Incidentally I had switched that out with something to test if that could be the cause, but the problem still happened, so that ruled out the modem

Yes no Comcast box, just the coaxial going to the modem and then the modem going to the router via Ethernet