Networking hardware - what are people buying these days?

[pinkoos]

In reference to my thread below about my ongoing network issues, I'm just wondering what type hardware you would buy today if you were starting from scratch

Not saying that I would be doing this, but would be interesting to know what you would buy if you were building your system today

I currently have all Araknis hardware (router, switch, POE switch, WAPs)

I've heard good things about Ubiquiti/Unifi, what else is out there? And if you could specify specific models or lines within the brand, that would be helpful

Oh and Control4 compatibility is not an absolute must in my case, but would be nice if it was

Edited February 4, 2022 by pinkoos

[Control4Savant]

26 minutes ago, pinkoos said:

In reference to my thread below about my ongoing network issues, I'm just wondering what type hardware you would buy today if you were starting from scratch

Not saying that I would be doing this, but would be interesting to know what you would buy if you were building your system today

I currently have all Araknis hardware (router, switch, POE switch, WAPs)

I've heard good things about Ubiquiti/Unifi, what else is out there? And if you could specify specific models or lines within the brand, that would be helpful

Oh and Control4 compatibility is not an absolute must in my case, but would be nice if it was

Control4 “compatibility”  is a bit of a Fugazi if you know networking (for the most part).

Ubiquity is your best option for DYI enterprise grade resi networking. Hands down by cost, design, scalability and performance. It’s not perfect.

AV networking brands like Pakedge, Araknis, Luxul have capable basic or “performance” systems that are WAY more capable than a Comcast or Eero installation but come in at a ridiculous expense with little security management or updates. Snap has Access networks now so that is a major step into proper equipment. 

You can certainly mix and match as we talked about I think in your other post. I use Netgear pro switches and WAPs, a lot of times with Ubiquity or even a MircoTik router. VLANS are usually universal across platforms. I also use Netgear Pro Orbi stuff for mesh networks to enhance a client/business managed or basic ISP network. 

You can save money on things like a router, a MSRP ERX or ER4 from Ubiquity are both under $200 and serve for 99% of peoples home use under any circumstance. Then add  a more costly item like Rukus APs to balance the budge. 

I need Extream switches sometimes for AVB audio. Juniper for ultra high end systems.

It depends on how advanced you want you network to be. I keep most switching and routing on advanced systems off the router so it has less to process so I try and use L3 gear. Same reason I dont like to use Ubiquity routers, I would rather have the processing overhead separated. I care to have active updates on at least the router and WAP level since cyber security is a constant evolution. 

[zaphod]

Ubiquiti Unifi - I use a USG as my router and Unifis Access Points as WAPs through my house and yard. I have one Unifi switch but I have tended to just buy any old unmanaged switch.

[pinkoos]

Where are people buying these higher end brands? I don't believe the big box stores carry them, so are you buying direct from manufacturer or somewhere else?

[msgreenf]

21 minutes ago, pinkoos said:

Where are people buying these higher end brands? I don't believe the big box stores carry them, so are you buying direct from manufacturer or somewhere else?

I carry a number of them - what are you looking for?

[Andrew luecke]

I used to use a lot of Ubiquiti. It's cheap and has enough features, without requiring subscription for features like IPS (generally UDM/UDM-Pro, UAP-L6 and Unifi Switches). Araknis is the better choice if you're not good at networking though.

In certain jobs, I'd consider using a high end router though (like Fortinet, or Watchguard.. In practice, all of these high end routers have similar benefits / disadvantages).  In general, I'd only put these in businesses. 

If money was no object though or its a high density network, I'd probably look at Access Networks. 

[Topspin14m]

Everyone will say it's a terrible idea, but my C4 network is running fine off an Orbi Wifi 6 system right now.  But I have it all hardwired so it isn't really working as a "mesh" system.  I do plan on replacing it with something fancier, but I can't justify it right now with Wifi 6e enterprise devices right around the corner...Installing these enterprise grade systems in a home is very expensive and they are all going to be 2nd tier once Wifi 6e is fully operational (likely with the next iPhone, which will drive adoption...).  I know we are talking about small % boosts, but when you are spending thousands of dollars on a wifi system (instead of $400-600 for typical home systems), you want to squeeze every advantage out of it.

[ejn1]

Ubiquiti Unifi is butt simple....  Only if you try and manually optimize wifi,  it can tricky or if you do advance networking.... but still relatively easy vs alternatives.   If you have trouble with Unifi, suggest not worrying about posting and hire someone.

[ekohn00]

I get to work with all the big names for customers and company...but for my home, it came down to functionality for me and costs...

I went with Unifi, it works very well and it's nice to have one interface for everything/device.

 

[pinkoos]

What are considered some of the better mesh systems these days? I never really paid much attention to mesh except when they first came out (Linksys Velop, Eero)

I'm not concerned about whether the systems work with Control4 or not, so that should open the door to more brands

I ask b/c if I do decide to go ahead and revamp my network gear, even my dealer mentioned that a mesh system may work

Thanks

[IamFodder]

So This might not be a popular opinion, but Mesh WAP's are really a gimmick.

Now I will clarify that statement, they DEFINATLY have there place, like all devices. But for them to work you are always not getting full speed on them as they need to use part of that speed to communicate with the next unit etc.
I agree this is not a HUGE loss, but it grows as more load is put on the system.

IF you have access to run CAT5/6 the use independent runs for the WAPS, this way you get full use of that bandwidth.
Or you can use a small switch with correct speed and POE on another run of CAT5/6 as a backbone to the WAP.

In my experience, even a WAP actually in the the roof space above the room and not in the room its self will give a better signal that SOME of these mesh units. 

But the C4 training on this actually pointed it out very well, 99% of people that install a WAP leave it at 100% transmit power and a lot of the time on the same channel.
Tuning the transmit power, Chanel and setting the same SSID and PWD on what WAPs you have will generally make a huge difference in your wireless network stability. 

Now I know that there are places that cant get to a CAT cable and that is fine, but these MESH networks are not really the be all answer. 

Take the time to tune your wireless network, for fast handoffs and so that one WAP is not killing the other you will probably get must better results with your network.

Two of the apps I use the most for this tuning are

net analyzer
wifi analyzer

Both have a free and paid version. free works for most people, i paid for both.

 

[Control4Savant]

1 hour ago, IamFodder said:

So This might not be a popular opinion, but Mesh WAP's are really a gimmick.

Now I will clarify that statement, they DEFINATLY have there place, like all devices. But for them to work you are always not getting full speed on them as they need to use part of that speed to communicate with the next unit etc.
I agree this is not a HUGE loss, but it grows as more load is put on the system.

IF you have access to run CAT5/6 the use independent runs for the WAPS, this way you get full use of that bandwidth.
Or you can use a small switch with correct speed and POE on another run of CAT5/6 as a backbone to the WAP.

In my experience, even a WAP actually in the the roof space above the room and not in the room its self will give a better signal that SOME of these mesh units. 

But the C4 training on this actually pointed it out very well, 99% of people that install a WAP leave it at 100% transmit power and a lot of the time on the same channel.
Tuning the transmit power, Chanel and setting the same SSID and PWD on what WAPs you have will generally make a huge difference in your wireless network stability. 

Now I know that there are places that cant get to a CAT cable and that is fine, but these MESH networks are not really the be all answer. 

Take the time to tune your wireless network, for fast handoffs and so that one WAP is not killing the other you will probably get must better results with your network.

Two of the apps I use the most for this tuning are

net analyzer
wifi analyzer

Both have a free and paid version. free works for most people, i paid for both.

 

Yeah… I run high end and large HA systems on 100% mesh systems often. Easier to work around environment issues. Full wireless bandwidth capabilities. A lot of these 4x4 networks have dedicated back channels. Current Wifi tech makes this easier than ever before. Good mesh tech is absolutely not a gimmick and can outperform a foiled prewired design. 

[pinkoos]

6 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

Yeah… I run high end and large HA systems on 100% mesh systems often. Easier to work around environment issues. Full wireless bandwidth capabilities. A lot of these 4x4 networks have dedicated back channels. Current Wifi tech makes this easier than ever before. Good mesh tech is absolutely not a gimmick and can outperform a foiled prewired design. 

What brands/models do you like?

[msgreenf]

IMHO eero is pretty amazing

[pinkoos]

How do POE switches, switches, other LAN devices get incorporated into mesh systems?

I've seen some systems where the 'router' only has one LAN port

[mstafford388]

If you have that many devices on a network you don't want a mesh piece acting as the router.  Get a good router, then if you need to use a mesh system for some reason just use it for wifi. 

[ekohn00]

If you have the choice, go WAP.

As for speed the main difference is mesh systems will use wireless to connect nodes creating multiple hops which can lead to lower speeds overall. Reality is In home use, you probably won't even notice - unless the kids are playing COD and you're on the Peloton.

Mesh is a much easier install, most systems are plug and play. I you have a lot of WAPs you need to be careful on the RF overlap.

[msgreenf]

Honestly, I think mesh do better than traditional waps in terms of RF overlap. I set up an eero at a friend's house. He had 400 Mb service. We got 415 wired and 400 on wireless. Can you really ask for more?

[ekohn00]

6 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

 We got 415 wired and 400 on wireless. Can you really ask for more?

Yes!!!!  

 

[pinkoos]

I've been reading up a little bit on the mesh devices and it seems, as far as my understanding goes, that these are good for homes that don't have a good wired ethernet infrastructure in place

Is that your alls understanding as well?

I have wired ethernet running to every bedroom as well as common areas including the family room, game room, study, etc.

Then, I have WAPs in 4 areas to spread wifi throughout the house

So, I'm not sure if I would be the target market for a mesh system after all - I don't know

If mesh systems somehow work better in terms of the issues I've been having (ie, potential unidentified DHCP conflict or something along those lines), then I would be all for converting

Otherwise, I'm not so sure

[Andrew luecke]

All "good mesh tech" still has a few issues imho (whether they matter anymore is another debate): 

1. Wireless is half duplex (transmits OR receives). Wired is full duplex. 1Gbps of wireless is NOT the same as 1gbps wired. Mesh links add further bottlenecks. Many AP's support Link Aggregation or 2.5gbps/5gbps to add further ethernet capacity.
2. Unless the house is old, noticeable interference on ethernet is rare, unless your installer didn't follow standard practices.  
3. I suspect many wireless AP's still use their own Mesh standards. For best performance, you need the same brand generally. If you rely on mesh, you really would want to replace them all. 
4. The wireless stack is far more complicated than wired. A cheap switch will likely be more stable than a cheap AP. Complicating the wireless adds the potential for additional issues.  
5. It is easier to diagnose and identify the cause of an issue on a hardwired network. With wireless issues though, you don't know if its the mesh link that's causing issues, or ethernet. From the user side a crappy wifi uplink will show as great signal to the end users (and might be degraded by intermittent interference) 
6. We've found in some cases, simply moving things around or standing in front of a uplink can degrade performance in some cases.. 
7. Many of the same issues which will affect a hardwired backbone, will STILL affect a wireless backbone (network loops, etc). But, now you also need to worry about the wireless backbone too 
8. A wired backbone can still use mesh as a backup. 
9. Mesh relies on overlapping AP's. Why not just overlap hardwired AP's the same way?
10. If you have 5 overlapping Mesh AP's with 2 ethernet connections, and 1 ethernet connection fails, you suddenly have 4 ap's with many hops (more links to fail, more latency), and only 1 ethernet connection which operates (which apparently might have potential "environmental issues"). However, if you have 5 wired connections instead placed in the same locations (mesh relies on overlap), the faulty AP could turn off it's radio  and it won't be missed (or at worst case, use mesh as backup with 1 hop, with better candidates for connection). 

 

That being said 

1. On a residential system, it's unlikely you will have 2 clients using a lot of bandwidth, so mesh will perform well enough honestly (residential users have more bandwidth than they need these days on Wifi).
2. Relying on Mesh makes sense in cases where you ABSOLUTELY cannot run wires, or the wires are not in good spots.
3. Or, as a backup (which is another reason why many high-end AP's include it but still recommend wired connections).  
4. Whether the performance difference is noticeable is another debate altogether. But, always prioritise hardwired uplinks unless the network backbone at the property is totally janky (old CAT5, badly cabled, etc). 
5. I've also seen cases where installers skimp on the AP's for wired installs too, but throw mesh everywhere (because they need to). Put more hardwired AP's in than you think you require in a residential installation. 
6. 802.11be / Wifi7 operates at up to 30gbps though (so unless the customer is sending raw footage or it's high density, so bandwidth probably no longer matters for almost all applications, as there is probably enough). Installers should already be installing fibre though to key locations, have conduit to support it's installation (or at the very least, multiple copper cables to AP's to support link aggregation). 

If you have wires, definitely use them imho because the bottleneck will always be the ethernet connection (unless they're transferring between wireless devices a lot). At the very least, troubleshooting imho will be easier and the risks are a lot more predictable.

[pinkoos]

Now this is EXTREMELY helpful information, thank you so much Andrew!

[Control4Savant]

On 2/25/2022 at 7:26 AM, pinkoos said:

How do POE switches, switches, other LAN devices get incorporated into mesh systems?

I've seen some systems where the 'router' only has one LAN port

https://www.netgear.com/business/wifi/mesh/sxk80

I can hit max wifi gig speeds expected equally across the wireless network so we’re not talking about 300 or 400mb capped Eero. Full L3 system with remote management. Hardwire local devices or L2 or AVB/POE/10g AVoIP switches. Better RF pattern and placement versus ceiling mount APs. This is becoming standard for any of my residential projects, small or large most of them full of catx I ran myself. 

 

[msgreenf]

The latest eero pro isn't capped 

[Andrew luecke]

7 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

https://www.netgear.com/business/wifi/mesh/sxk80

I can hit max wifi gig speeds expected equally across the wireless network so we’re not talking about 300 or 400mb capped Eero. Full L3 system with remote management. Hardwire local devices or L2 or AVB/POE/10g AVoIP switches. Better RF pattern and placement versus ceiling mount APs. This is becoming standard for any of my residential projects, small or large most of them full of catx I ran myself. 

 

 

Just wondering if there is more info that ceiling ap's have worse RF or placement? As I spent 20 mins trying to find any antenna specs for orbi, but were unable to find any specs. 

We place motion sensors on the ceiling because they tend to have better line of sight (and the same principle applies to ap's too imho). Freestanding aps seem to have more limited options for placement imho.