Newbe Q: just bought a house with old C4 gear, what should I upgrade?

[Zbee]

AV, lights, HVAC and water features are all on the existing system. Wired speakers everywhere on an 8 zone (large, old looking) amp. Light switches work erratically with LEDs.  The main controller and a couple of remote C4 boxes are relatively new, everything else is early C4 gear. The local installer is happy to sell me all of the new C4 LED compatible dimmer switches I can eat, a new Triad amp, new thermostats, new control panels (or just remove the old ones and use the app), etc. Prices for new C4 gear seems high ($250 per light switch, for example), but not sure where it is worth spending and where it isn't. Any advice greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[eggzlot]

9 hours ago, Zbee said:

AV, lights, HVAC and water features are all on the existing system. Wired speakers everywhere on an 8 zone (large, old looking) amp. Light switches work erratically with LEDs.  The main controller and a couple of remote C4 boxes are relatively new, everything else is early C4 gear. The local installer is happy to sell me all of the new C4 LED compatible dimmer switches I can eat, a new Triad amp, new thermostats, new control panels (or just remove the old ones and use the app), etc. Prices for new C4 gear seems high ($250 per light switch, for example), but not sure where it is worth spending and where it isn't. Any advice greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Well this is all very generic to be honest.

If it works and you are happy no reason to upgrade.  If you are on OS2 and want the new UI/features of OS3 you may want to upgrade.

$250 I believe is MSRP For a Dimmer Keypad.  There are also just Dimmers and Switches that are cheaper + there is the "Essentials line" that is missing some features but are even cheaper.

The lights working erratically could be just due to legacy programming so may be best to clear it out and start from scratch (could be old sensors and timers that are missing/removed, etc).  

Some old hardware will not work with OS3, so if you want to "upgrade" that is maybe why the dealer is spec'ing out new hardware.  Also he is trying to make a living.

Worth spending is hard to equate, some people drink $10 bottles of wine, others drink $100 or $1000 bottles.  Is it "worth it"?  a $5,000 upgrade may be a lot to someone to get a new UI and some fancy features whereas someone may spend that much money on fabric samples for outdoor furniture for their 3rd home so they'll pay that for the upgrade regardless.

Just giving some very far ranging observations, likely not helping too much but just trying to give you an idea of why they may be trying to sell you extra hardware because you could get new features, but it is hard for a stranger to determine that "worth" for your personally.

[Zbee]

Thanks Eggzlot.  That helps ask the right questions of the installer (we don't have many people who sell C4 around here, so I can't easily get opinions locally). Can you point me in the right direction or tell me what some of the new features are in the upgraded hardware/software? For example, what does OS3 do that the previous OS does not, what do the more expensive switches do vs. the more basic ones, etc.? Much appreciated.

[eggzlot]

5 hours ago, Zbee said:

Thanks Eggzlot.  That helps ask the right questions of the installer (we don't have many people who sell C4 around here, so I can't easily get opinions locally). Can you point me in the right direction or tell me what some of the new features are in the upgraded hardware/software? For example, what does OS3 do that the previous OS does not, what do the more expensive switches do vs. the more basic ones, etc.? Much appreciated.

https://www.control4.com/os3/

This can be some starting reference points for you.  Hard to find an OS2 vs OS3 direct comparison, but you can see the new UI in OS3, the new media navigation controls, etc, so know what you have and you can see what is new.

[Cyknight]

6 hours ago, eggzlot said:

The lights working erratically could be just due to legacy programming so may be best to clear it out and start from scratch (could be old sensors and timers that are missing/removed, etc).

Eh as LED use is specified, programing may not be the issue - it's POSSIBLE that making the dimmers work like a switch or only going as low as 80% (and still basically lose dimming) can help. Alternatively - it could also be that the ELDs in use are simply not dimmable - in which case replacing the bulbs is an option (though that may bnot end up cheaper). Note that if the LED bulbs are not dimmable, there's a high chance new dimmers won't work either, so check that out beforehand.

[Zbee]

Thanks Cyknight.  They are all dimmable LED lights, some are recessed fixtures and some are LED strip lights with transformers, so some tricky loads to manage. What the local installer told me is that it is hit or miss with the old C4 switches, they were designed for incandescent lights and react differently to some LEDs.  I'm trying to avoid playing whack a mole running down each switch and light to determine what works, but that means more cost up front. I guess I need to pick my poison.

 

Eggzlot's point about different priced C4 switches is helpful, at least I don't need to spend 75 x $250.

 

 

[Cyknight]

32 minutes ago, Zbee said:

they were designed for incandescent lights and react differently to some LEDs.

True indeed. Very much hit and miss.

33 minutes ago, Zbee said:

Eggzlot's point about different priced C4 switches is helpful, at least I don't need to spend 75 x $250.

It is.

Essential line has so far surprised me in that I've yet to find a (dimmable) LED that doesn't work (range of dimming isn't quite as good though, ie, may only work from 50-100% on some bulbs/fixtures that APD style dimmers can do 10-100 on). Technically, as far as dimming capability is concerned, the 'regular' APD dimmers are your best bet, though they come with a much lower MAX rating.

Do note that the cheaper essential line comes with it's own cost: It doesn't look quite as nice, but more importantly, it's 'passive' energy consumption is MUCH higher ( under 0.5W vs 3W at 120v).

Also note different minimum (And maximum) wattage requirements (only noting LED here):

'main line' APD =1W - 120W

'main line' FPD = 4.5W - 200W

Essential FPD = (not published!, estimate 7W, had issues with a 5W bulb) - 300W

Note that these are 'true' LED wattages, so not the 'equivalent' wattage (ie not the '60w equivalent' rating etc often found on LED bulbs)

[RAV]

Try and narrow done, be more specific about - LED working erratically.

Circuits with only a couple LED on the older switch, that's a loading issue resolved with new dimmers.
Flashing at lower levels, dimming range, that's addressable in setup.
May also be the house had older cans with halogen transformers, and that may need to be addressed.

[Zbee]

I had a good call with C4 today and learned quite a lot. Here's what I think I know, but please correct anything I've misunderstood.

OS3 vs 2: OS3 has a better user interface, faster response time, additional features and cleaned up a lot of bugs from OS2. Sounded more like a nice to have than need to have,, but clearly a step forward.

LED lighting control with legacy dimmers: as you have posted, it's hit or miss. One thing that I learned is that some of the miss can be corrected by changing the dimmer response curve, but it sounds like that can only be done by a dealer and it would cost more than just buying a new switch.

The biggest difference between the more expensive dimmers and the least expensive beyond the physical differences, as Cyknight pointed out, is the total amperage that they can carry.  Given the low amperage of most LED lights, it would take a good number of lights before the expensive ones are required.

There is a combination of art, engineering and profit incentive in how different dealers recommend systems.  Multiple opinions are worth getting.

C4 is building a strong ecosystem that extends to door cameras, routers, security, HVAC control, AV, etc. They are working with others as well as developing proprietary ones that look like solid, but not inexpensive, products.

[Andrew luecke]

4 hours ago, Zbee said:

I had a good call with C4 today and learned quite a lot. Here's what I think I know, but please correct anything I've misunderstood.

OS3 vs 2: OS3 has a better user interface, faster response time, additional features and cleaned up a lot of bugs from OS2. Sounded more like a nice to have than need to have,, but clearly a step forward.

LED lighting control with legacy dimmers: as you have posted, it's hit or miss. One thing that I learned is that some of the miss can be corrected by changing the dimmer response curve, but it sounds like that can only be done by a dealer and it would cost more than just buying a new switch.

The biggest difference between the more expensive dimmers and the least expensive beyond the physical differences, as Cyknight pointed out, is the total amperage that they can carry.  Given the low amperage of most LED lights, it would take a good number of lights before the expensive ones are required.

There is a combination of art, engineering and profit incentive in how different dealers recommend systems.  Multiple opinions are worth getting.

C4 is building a strong ecosystem that extends to door cameras, routers, security, HVAC control, AV, etc. They are working with others as well as developing proprietary ones that look like solid, but not inexpensive, products.

That sounds right.. But also:

1. OS2.10.6 is now 3 years old. In C4 terms, thats ancient. And OS3 is evolving super quickly (it feels like now they've crushed the bugs, they're focusing on features, so development is speeding up). 
2. Most developers are no longer targeting OS2.X for new drivers. In fact, 3.1.3 is now the minimum for many drivers. Newer drivers like the Chowmain Shelly Driver weren't even tested in OS2.10.X (and 3.0.0 will probably work, but stuff like auto-setup might need some manual intervention). 
3. OS3 also has a lot of backend stuff developers can use to improve the system,  such as drivers with custom interfaces (which are used by drivers like Scheduler). Previously, these drivers could only be used on Touchscreen. 
4. OS3 supports a bunch of new Control4 hardware too (like the NEEO, and new touchscreens)
5. If your system components are new enough, they can be upgraded to OS3 for free. The ones that can't are pretty much 10 years old.. 

[Cyknight]

22 hours ago, Zbee said:

The biggest difference between the more expensive dimmers and the least expensive beyond the physical differences, as Cyknight pointed out, is the total amperage that they can carry.  Given the low amperage of most LED lights, it would take a good number of lights before the expensive ones are required.

No no no . In fact the cheaper ones have a HIGHER wattage rating. The biggest issue is look, more options (keypads that match, keypad and dimmer in one), lower running cost (as in the cheaper one uses 5-6 times the energy to 'just sit there and be ready' and the 'more expensive option (specifically the APD) is MORE compatible, with MORE loads, and LOWER minimum ratings.

That;s in no way saying the Essential line is a bad choice, just pointing out the accurate differences there.

[Cyknight]

22 hours ago, Zbee said:

One thing that I learned is that some of the miss can be corrected by changing the dimmer response curve

The older units do not directly allow curve adjustments (in fact, it's only the Essential line that does) - SOME LED issues can be fixed by setting cold start values, and minimum on values on the old dimmers.

That said, this will NOT address:

-Flickering lights or lights not completely turning off when OFF (it can help prevent flickering lights at low levels, but only because you're disabling those low levels)

-Limited dimming range (as you simply only allow the higher levels - in some RL instances, we're talking 80% minimum)