New Construction Wiring for Phillips Hue

[therockhr]

Just curious and this is probably more an electrician question but if someone told you they wanted to do only Phillips Hue lights for a new construction and just have Control4 keypads, touchscreens and apps control the lighting, how would you do the wiring? Would you wire it up like you were going to do panelized wiring?

[msgreenf]

I would think it would depend on your building code? But I'm not sure you would pass inspection if you at hue lighting with no ability for local override. The panelized lightings have fall back and local override which Hugh has no concept of. Hue was never really made for a whole home install

[therockhr]

15 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

I would think it would depend on your building code? But I'm not sure you would pass inspection if you at hue lighting with no ability for local override. The panelized lightings have fall back and local override which Hugh has no concept of. Hue was never really made for a whole home install

What are the local overrides for panelized lighting?

I have seen people do those huge banks of like 20 loads of wireless lighting (which is dumb but besides the point). Are those up to code?

I was thinking you would wire them in a panel just like you would for control4 or Lutron panelized lighting but don’t hook them up to dimmers but I’m really just guessing. 

[msgreenf]

6 minutes ago, therockhr said:

What are the local overrides for panelized lighting

Local switches can be programmed and function without the controller being online. 

[cdcllc]

Hhhhhhmmmmmm . . . . I'm dipping my toes in the water and installing Philips Hue at the house.  Tired of replacing a myriad of incandescent BR-30s at the house and want LED and to play with some color.  Just doing kitchen can lights to start and may never go any further.  I'll be very interested in the responses you receive.

From my research - and take everything with a grain of salt because I have no practical experience - I'm assuming that you will need Hue bridge(s) so you need to identify location(s) for those.   I think the bridge needs both power and wired ethernet; not sure if POE is an option.  As for the lights themselves, my understanding is C4 is used to switch the load on & off and the hue drivers/bridge/app for all else (dimming, color setting, light groups, etc.).  So On/Off control path is C4 --> C4 Load controller and the main functionality control path is C4 --> Hue Bridge --> Hue Bulbs.  C4--> C4 Load controller at my house is via C4 Zigbee network and C4 --> Hue Bridge will be an ethernet connection.  As such, I don't see Philips Hue bulbs being a primary driver of the panelized lighting requirement.  I would think whatever normally drives the requirement for panelized lighting still holds.

Hopefully this isn't stupid rumbling . . . I'm assuming 110 volt bulbs and colored lighting.

[therockhr]

1 hour ago, msgreenf said:

Local switches can be programmed and function without the controller being online. 

How is this local switch wired in? Is it wired into the panelized wiring somehow? I thought the whole goal of panelized wiring is to get rid of the local switches and use keypads and touchscreens. 

[RAV]

NEC Code:

"At least one wall-switch-controlled lighting outlet must be installed in every habitable room (and bathroom) of a dwelling [210.70(A)(1)]. This provision requires at least one lighting outlet in every habitable room and at least one wall switch to control it."

___

I would wire as typical for the main lights in the room with a KD120. Set a button to control the load as a fail safe, and set a macro for all such 'lights' to be always on (the physical on). Then control HUE through lighting scenes etc and the HUE app as you wish (the software power on/off).

You could put a standard Control4 switch there and disengage the load, have the load always on like with the keypad, and the toggle done via software using the switch as a keypad, but you won't have a fail safe way to activate the room light.

___

Panelized light modules have a contact setup that gets wired to a typical lighting toggle switch anywhere in the house (say a closet). Flip switch and all the module circuits energize. That's their alien stole the controller backup for lights to meet codes.

Even with Panelized, to meet code, you need to have a keypad per room.
You can't build a house to code without any wall controls and only rely on touch, voice, scheduling, etc.

 

 

[therockhr]

13 minutes ago, RAV said:

NEC Code:

"At least one wall-switch-controlled lighting outlet must be installed in every habitable room (and bathroom) of a dwelling [210.70(A)(1)]. This provision requires at least one lighting outlet in every habitable room and at least one wall switch to control it."

___

I would wire as typical for the main lights in the room with a KD120. Set a button to control the load as a fail safe, and set a macro for all such 'lights' to be always on (the physical on). Then control HUE through lighting scenes etc and the HUE app as you wish (the software power on/off).

You could put a standard Control4 switch there and disengage the load, have the load always on like with the keypad, and the toggle done via software using the switch as a keypad, but you won't have a fail safe way to activate the room light.

___

Panelized light modules have a contact setup that gets wired to a typical lighting toggle switch anywhere in the house (say a closet). Flip switch and all the module circuits energize. That's their alien stole the controller backup for lights to meet codes.

Even with Panelized, to meet code, you need to have a keypad per room.
You can't build a house to code without any wall controls and only rely on touch, voice, scheduling, etc.

 

 

thanks for that.

 

[CTMatthew]

I can't imagine basing a home design on Philips Hue. That's not asking for trouble, it's demanding it. 

[AHSquirrel]

The Biggest Issue with Philips hue as one mf my colleagues found out is that when you have a power cut all the lights come back turned on at full brightness. Brief power cuts of 3-4 seconds are fairly common in the UK especially at night. In this case he was woken up in the early hours with all his kids screaming and every light in the house stuck on until the router and Hue bridge etc had come to life so he could turn them all off again. This doesn't happen with the C4 lighting as it just goes back to its previous state. this is what put me off Philips hue even for a few standard lamps I went with Lutron Inline dimmers instead.

[RyanE]

44 minutes ago, AHSquirrel said:

The Biggest Issue with Philips hue as one of my colleagues found out is that when you have a power cut all the lights come back turned on at full brightness. Brief power cuts of 3-4 seconds are fairly common in the UK especially at night. In this case he was woken up in the early hours with all his kids screaming and every light in the house stuck on until the router and Hue bridge etc had come to life so he could turn them all off again. This doesn't happen with the C4 lighting as it just goes back to its previous state. this is what put me off Philips hue even for a few standard lamps I went with Lutron Inline dimmers instead.

And that's by design, since they were originally designed to work in lamps where you would use the lamp's power cord (or bulb-adjacent) switch to turn them off, then when you flip the switch again to power them back up, they come on without requiring an app, etc.

RyanE

[therockhr]

1 hour ago, CTMatthew said:

I can't imagine basing a home design on Philips Hue. That's not asking for trouble, it's demanding it. 

this is true but i think its interesting to think about. I would imagine if you asked a lot of electricians they would say panelized lighting is just asking for trouble. I am guessing if someone wanted to do this the best way is just to wire it up as you normally would but keep the lights wired to on and where there would be banks of switches just wire in a Control4 keypad.

It would be cool for some kind of module that would be able to be installed locally to replace a switch or DIN mounted in a panel that had the ability to control a colored bulb. take the smarts out of the bulb and into a module that could save the state.

[CTMatthew]

Just now, therockhr said:

this is true but i think its interesting to think about. I would imagine if you asked a lot of electricians they would say panelized lighting is just asking for trouble. I am guessing if someone wanted to do this the best way is just to wire it up as you normally would but keep the lights wired to on and where there would be banks of switches just wire in a Control4 keypad.

It would be cool for some kind of module that would be able to be installed locally to replace a switch or DIN mounted in a panel that had the ability to control a colored bulb. take the smarts out of the bulb and into a module that could save the state.

A lot of guessing and imagining. 

Panelized lighting is an established lighting control topology. Electricians are quite comfortable with it and it meets electrical code while simplifying control for the end user. The building I'm sitting in has a 17 year old panelized lighting system. If there's power to the building it works.

I don't think I've experienced a Philips Hue system that works for more than a week without something flaking out. 

You might be well served to look into Ketra. It functions along some of the same lines as Philips Hue, but with the reliability of panelized lighting. 

[therockhr]

15 minutes ago, CTMatthew said:

A lot of guessing and imagining. 

Panelized lighting is an established lighting control topology. Electricians are quite comfortable with it and it meets electrical code while simplifying control for the end user. The building I'm sitting in has a 17 year old panelized lighting system. If there's power to the building it works.

I don't think I've experienced a Philips Hue system that works for more than a week without something flaking out. 

You might be well served to look into Ketra. It functions along some of the same lines as Philips Hue, but with the reliability of panelized lighting. 

i have no idea if Phillips Hue is good or not. Just wondering what it would be like if someone decided to try and design a system with it in mind from the start. Just a thought experiment.

I still think you could wire the house up in lighting panels like you are going to do lutron, control4 or some other panelized lighting but just have them wired on with terminal blocks. You could even put in the needed auxiliary/local switch. Wire it up where you could put in panelized lighting later if you wanted.

How do the Ketra bulbs work? How is that wired in to stay on? They seem to be similar to Hue in that the radio is in the bulb but they use Lutron clear connect. 

[CTMatthew]

12 minutes ago, therockhr said:

i have no idea if Phillips Hue is good or not. Just wondering what it would be like if someone decided to try and design a system with it in mind from the start. Just a thought experiment.

I still think you could wire the house up in lighting panels like you are going to do lutron, control4 or some other panelized lighting but just have them wired on with terminal blocks. You could even put in the needed auxiliary/local switch. Wire it up where you could put in panelized lighting later if you wanted.

How do the Ketra bulbs work? How is that wired in to stay on? They seem to be similar to Hue in that the radio is in the bulb but they use Lutron clear connect. 

Ketra bulbs are similar in that the "intelligence" is moving from either a wall control or back-end module into each lamp/fixture. They communicate over ClearConnect TypeX and the keypads in the wall (or the app) issue the commands to the lights. 

This has many of the potential advantages of a Hue-like setup without the flaky electronics. 

We've been installing Ketra for a bit now and it's proven to be every bit as robust as anything else Lutron makes. 

[therockhr]

10 minutes ago, CTMatthew said:

Ketra bulbs are similar in that the "intelligence" is moving from either a wall control or back-end module into each lamp/fixture. They communicate over ClearConnect TypeX and the keypads in the wall (or the app) issue the commands to the lights. 

This has many of the potential advantages of a Hue-like setup without the flaky electronics. 

We've been installing Ketra for a bit now and it's proven to be every bit as robust as anything else Lutron makes. 

If for instance you had a group of 6 recessed lights all with Ketra bulbs, how would that load be wired to power? Through a normal switch that would always have to be on (like Hue), a local Ketra/Lutron switch or into a panelized lighting module or would any of these work?

[RAV]

Next gen lighting, will be POE.

[CTMatthew]

4 minutes ago, therockhr said:

If for instance you had a group of 6 recessed lights all with Ketra bulbs, how would that load be wired to power? Through a normal switch that would always have to be on (like Hue), a local Ketra/Lutron switch or into a panelized lighting module or would any of these work?

You'd wire them to power only - like an outlet. 

[CTMatthew]

2 minutes ago, RAV said:

Next gen lighting, will be POE.

Almost certainly not. 

[therockhr]

3 minutes ago, CTMatthew said:

You'd wire them to power only - like an outlet. 

I thought you couldnt do that because of code?

[CTMatthew]

2 minutes ago, therockhr said:

I thought you couldnt do that because of code?

You can because you'll also be installing compatible controls in the room.

The issue with Hue isn't meeting code, it's reliability. 

[therockhr]

7 minutes ago, CTMatthew said:

You can because you'll also be installing compatible controls in the room.

I'm guessing the wireless (or wired if using Homeworks) keypad counts as compatible controls? Would a Control4 keypad count?

[Topspin14m]

You can because you'll also be installing compatible controls in the room.
The issue with Hue isn't meeting code, it's reliability. 

As a current Lutron Ketra customer who has been living with it, I can echo CTMatthew’s comments. It’s rock solid tech, unlike my LIFX system that would kind of lose connection or crap out at various points. The only issue I’ve had is that two fixtures/bulbs died shortly after install and had to be replaced. I think that was more of a build issue than a long term reliability thing. I had a bunch installed across three floors and they’ve all been solid otherwise.

That said, Ketra is mega $$$ compared with Hue. But if you want a big system that doesn’t lose connection/break down and is controlled by physical switches, that’s what it was created for.

The only issue I have with Ketra beyond price is that they need more fixtures/bulb types. Hue has way more options.


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[LollerAgent]

2 hours ago, AHSquirrel said:

The Biggest Issue with Philips hue as one mf my colleagues found out is that when you have a power cut all the lights come back turned on at full brightness. Brief power cuts of 3-4 seconds are fairly common in the UK especially at night. In this case he was woken up in the early hours with all his kids screaming and every light in the house stuck on until the router and Hue bridge etc had come to life so he could turn them all off again. This doesn't happen with the C4 lighting as it just goes back to its previous state. this is what put me off Philips hue even for a few standard lamps I went with Lutron Inline dimmers instead.

This isn't true necessarily.  This is a setting in Hue.  You can configure Hue to come back on at the "previous setting" when a power loss occurs.  

[blub]

Since Control4's own switches and keypads are a no go due to the limited face plate designs and the lacking compatibility to just add a 3rd party face plate from a 55 or 50mm standard in Europe I have tried hue. And I can say:

Forget it!

Hue is good for one or two, maybe a handful of light if you need the functionality. For anything else get something else....