New Construction Wiring for Phillips Hue

[therockhr]

Maybe I should change the title of the thread:

"New Construction Wiring for Smart Bulbs".

[CTMatthew]

I think the advice from the pros in the field would be that unless you're looking at Ketra specifically, that wiring for this topology is unfortunately premature. I don't know if it's premature by 24 months or 5 years, but given the supply chain antics it seems like we're a ways away from this category having enough selection to be considered mature. 

[therockhr]

11 minutes ago, CTMatthew said:

I think the advice from the pros in the field would be that unless you're looking at Ketra specifically, that wiring for this topology is unfortunately premature. I don't know if it's premature by 24 months or 5 years, but given the supply chain antics it seems like we're a ways away from this category having enough selection to be considered mature. 

Gotcha. So with that in mind, how do you wire for Ketra? The lighting load being wired to a panel like panelized lighting or wired to a wall section where a switch would normally be but with power always on?

[Topspin14m]

Gotcha. So with that in mind, how do you wire for Ketra? The lighting load being wired to a panel like panelized lighting or wired to a wall section where a switch would normally be but with power always on?

You don’t need to “wire” in any special way for Ketra. It uses the same wiring as any other fixture, but you do need to leave room for the fixtures. Some of them have big boxes that go into your ceiling - others are the size of a large can light (what I used is the latter because I replaced existing fixtures). You want to make sure you don’t have obstructions in your ceiling where you want the lights to go and that the ceiling is deep enough for them.


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[therockhr]

2 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

You don’t need to “wire” in any special way for Ketra. It uses the same wiring as any other fixture, but you do need to leave room for the fixtures. Some of them have big boxes that go into your ceiling - others are the size of a large can light (what I used is the latter because I replaced existing fixtures). You want to make sure you don’t have obstructions in your ceiling where you want the lights to go and that the ceiling is deep enough for them.


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thats not what i am asking. i am asking if you wire the ketra fixtures into a switch or not since they need constant power.

[Topspin14m]

thats not what i am asking. i am asking if you wire the ketra fixtures into a switch or not since they need constant power.

I use Lutron Homeworks keypads. So not to a traditional switch.

https://www.lutron.com/en-US/Products/Pages/Components/HomeWorksQSDesignerseeTouchKeypad/Overview.aspx


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[therockhr]

3 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

I use Lutron Homeworks keypads. So not to a traditional switch.

https://www.lutron.com/en-US/Products/Pages/Components/HomeWorksQSDesignerseeTouchKeypad/Overview.aspx


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do you still bring the fixture load wire into a switch box or do you just put power to the load like you would an outlet?

[RyanE]

16 minutes ago, therockhr said:

do you still bring the fixture load wire into a switch box or do you just put power to the load like you would an outlet?

I suspect that code (NEC and local codes) would definitely require that any fixture loads be switchable at some point.  You're not allowed to have fixtures that you can't service without having live exposed terminals (like lamp sockets).

For centralized lighting, that could be at the switch / dimmer module, but for fixtures that are 'local control' like a dimmer, they are typically required to be switched somewhere between the breaker and the load fixture.

RyanE

[RAV]

46 minutes ago, therockhr said:

do you still bring the fixture load wire into a switch box or do you just put power to the load like you would an outlet?

If you're crystal ball wiring for the future, you'd wire conventional.
Breaker - Switch - Cans
If you swapped in Ketra, you'd end up bypassing the wall switch in the switch box, the cans would go all hot, and then programming would ID and tie them to the switch/keypad.

If it was centralized, say on Control4 now, you would later bypass the Control4 module, and cans go all hot.

Ketra is sort of like Hue. Fixture is HOT, unswitched. You ID the particular light, and then program as you like.

If you're wiring only for Ketra.
Breaker - Cans
Wall Keypad - low voltage communication
Here's the neat thing, you don't wire by the old idea of I want these three cans on one switch, those three on another, the two fireplace spots on a third. It's all one circuit, based on the overall load to the breaker, could even be three different rooms. Each can gets it's own ID. (You could think of it as wireless DMX, kind of)

[therockhr]

21 minutes ago, RAV said:

If you're wiring only for Ketra.
Breaker - Cans
Wall Keypad - low voltage communication
Here's the neat thing, you don't wire by the old idea of I want these three cans on one switch, those three on another, the two fireplace spots on a third. It's all one circuit, based on the overall load to the breaker, could even be three different rooms. Each can gets it's own ID. (You could think of it as wireless DMX, kind of)

I like this but others are saying this wouldn’t pass code unless you put a switch for all those cans listed somewhere in the mix  I guess it could be near the breaker box in a panel if needed?

[RyanE]

Just now, therockhr said:

I like this but others are saying this wouldn’t pass code unless you put a switch somewhere in the mix  I guess it could be near the breaker box in a panel if needed?

Don't take the Internet's word for it.  Ask your AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction).

They may require that the switch be in some kind of proximity to the fixture.

I wish Control4 had keypads that had a passthrough hard switch like the dimmers / switches that would turn switch the 'passthrough' load on and off.

RyanE

[RAV]

3 minutes ago, therockhr said:

I like this but others are saying this wouldn’t pass code unless you put a switch somewhere in the mix  I guess it could be near the breaker box in a panel if needed?

Code says:
"At least one wall-switch-controlled lighting outlet must be installed in every habitable room (and bathroom) of a dwelling [210.70(A)(1)]. This provision requires at least one lighting outlet in every habitable room and at least one wall switch to control it."

Breaking it down. You can't have a room without a light. Even if your whole family is blind.
There must be a wall switch to turn on a light per room. (Doesn't say must be physically wired to the light).

You can't build a house and only have voice and apps for controlling the lights.
If an EMT needs to come in to help someone, they need to be able to 'flip' on a light. Wall keypads count.

[therockhr]

27 minutes ago, RyanE said:

I wish Control4 had keypads that had a passthrough hard switch like the dimmers / switches that would turn switch the 'passthrough' load on and off.

I’m guessing the wireless dimmer keypad combo doesn’t do this?

[mercer2]

can someone share a screenshot the new Control4 update with color wheel control for Ketra?

thanks

[Topspin14m]

can someone share a screenshot the new Control4 update with color wheel control for Ketra?
thanks

I don’t think there is any way to engage the “natural” setting from Control4. Nor do I think you can change the vibrancy. But this is a huge step in the right direction!

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[RyanE]

4 hours ago, therockhr said:

I’m guessing the wireless dimmer keypad combo doesn’t do this?

It certainly does, but then you're wasting the dimming functionality, since any RGB lights you want, you don't want to send them anything other than 'full on', because they handle dimming (and color) in the bulb itself.  If you try and dim a smart RGB bulb, bad things are likely to happen.

RyanE

[brantlmcdonald]

NEC Code:

"At least one wall-switch-controlled lighting outlet must be installed in every habitable room (and bathroom) of a dwelling [210.70(A)(1)]. This provision requires at least one lighting outlet in every habitable room and at least one wall switch to control it."
___
I would wire as typical for the main lights in the room with a KD120. Set a button to control the load as a fail safe, and set a macro for all such 'lights' to be always on (the physical on). Then control HUE through lighting scenes etc and the HUE app as you wish (the software power on/off).
You could put a standard Control4 switch there and disengage the load, have the load always on like with the keypad, and the toggle done via software using the switch as a keypad, but you won't have a fail safe way to activate the room light.
___

Panelized light modules have a contact setup that gets wired to a typical lighting toggle switch anywhere in the house (say a closet). Flip switch and all the module circuits energize. That's their alien stole the controller backup for lights to meet codes.
Even with Panelized, to meet code, you need to have a keypad per room.
You can't build a house to code without any wall controls and only rely on touch, voice, scheduling, etc.
 
 

That wall switch can be a Phillips hue battery operated switch. The only outlet required is for the fixture itself. Nowhere in the nec does it actually require the switch to be physically wired to the fixture.


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[RyanE]

10 hours ago, brantlmcdonald said:

That wall switch can be a Phillips hue battery operated switch. The only outlet required is for the fixture itself. Nowhere in the nec does it actually require the switch to be physically wired to the fixture.

The relevant sections of the NEC are hard to understand, and can be interpreted in various ways.

The only correct answer to whether you need to have a physical switch in a particular location is "ask your local electrical inspector", as he/she's the one you have to have approval of.

RyanE

[416to305]

For the handful of rooms where I use Hue as ceiling lights I just remove the switch from the wall and permanently wire it on, and then replace it with a Lutron Pico and have it control the Hue light via programming. But having said that, Hue isn't really ideal as a primary lighting technology (like ceiling lights etc), it's better to use for accent lighting like Lighstrips and so on.  In my one office I have a ceiling fixture that takes 5 of the Hue GU10 bulbs and then I just control it via a Pico on the wall after permanently wiring it on.

[Cyknight]

46 minutes ago, 416to305 said:

 I just remove the switch from the wall and permanently wire it on

uhhhh I never like seeing this. Musch rather have a keypad dimmer installed, with no (direct) way of controlling the load but leaving the option to shut it off if needed.

[brantlmcdonald]

2 hours ago, RyanE said:

The relevant sections of the NEC are hard to understand, and can be interpreted in various ways.

The only correct answer to whether you need to have a physical switch in a particular location is "ask your local electrical inspector", as he/she's the one you have to have approval of.

RyanE

Yes it can be hard to understand, which is why I'm explaining to OP here. NEC is my area of expertise. 

 

[416to305]

4 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

uhhhh I never like seeing this. Musch rather have a keypad dimmer installed, with no (direct) way of controlling the load but leaving the option to shut it off if needed.

Well that's the way Lutron says to do it when installing a 3-way switch; you permanently wire the other end on and use a Pico to replace it.

I do use keypads though in most areas which are RA2 ones, but not the hybrid ones as no point controlling the load.  They just have a neutral and line on them as the whole point of permanently wiring the Hue lights on is so that there's NO local control where someone can turn them off making them unresponsive.  This is the way I've done it for over 10 years.

[Cyknight]

13 hours ago, RyanE said:

It certainly does, but then you're wasting the dimming functionality, since any RGB lights you want, you don't want to send them anything other than 'full on', because they handle dimming (and color) in the bulb itself.  If you try and dim a smart RGB bulb, bad things are likely to happen.

RyanE

Yep would much rather have a (11v) keypad switch available...... hint hint

[RyanE]

1 minute ago, brantlmcdonald said:

Yes it can be hard to understand, which is why I'm explaining to OP here. NEC is my area of expertise. 

And what you're explaining could be 100% incorrect according to their local inspector, regardless of your NEC expertise.

RyanE

[RyanE]

Just now, Cyknight said:

Yep would much rather have a (11v) keypad switch available...... hint hint

11v?  What's 11v?  10v?

A Keypad Switch would do what I think would be useful, once you detach the load.

RyanE