416to305 Posted June 9, 2022 Share Posted June 9, 2022 Just to add as well, I mainly use the Pico Connected Bulb Remotes vs normal Pico ones, those are the ZigBee ones which control the Hue lights directly and pair direct to them meaning you don't need to actually program them anymore. They then function exactly like a normal dimmer with direct control to the light. You also pair it to the Hue bridge as otherwise pairing the Pico removes the Hue lamp from the bridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brantlmcdonald Posted June 9, 2022 Share Posted June 9, 2022 Just now, RyanE said: And what you're explaining could be 100% incorrect according to their local inspector, regardless of your NEC expertise. RyanE The inspector could say the sky is purple, and it doesn't make him right. The local inspector isn't the end-all of code enforcement. TundraSonic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted June 9, 2022 Share Posted June 9, 2022 Just now, brantlmcdonald said: The inspector could say the sky is purple, and it doesn't make him right. The local inspector isn't the end-all of code enforcement. Who exactly is the end-all of code enforcement, if the AHJ can halt a project by not signing off on it? RyanE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brantlmcdonald Posted June 9, 2022 Share Posted June 9, 2022 Just now, RyanE said: Who exactly is the end-all of code enforcement, if the AHJ can halt a project by not signing off on it? RyanE The construction standardization board for each state is the ultimate authority, and is generally comprised of individuals that can correctly interpret the code. Local AHJ's work under the authority granted to them by the state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lippavisual Posted June 9, 2022 Share Posted June 9, 2022 3 minutes ago, RyanE said: Who exactly is the end-all of code enforcement, if the AHJ can halt a project by not signing off on it? RyanE Exactly. Whatever your local inspector wants is what they get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lippavisual Posted June 9, 2022 Share Posted June 9, 2022 1 minute ago, brantlmcdonald said: The construction standardization board for each state is the ultimate authority, and is generally comprised of individuals that can correctly interpret the code. Local AHJ's work under the authority granted to them by the state. Sure, if you want to wait months to get any resolve passed the local authority. Plus, side step the inspector once and it will haunt you any time you work in that town/city forever. RyanE 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brantlmcdonald Posted June 9, 2022 Share Posted June 9, 2022 Just now, lippavisual said: Exactly. Whatever your local inspector wants is what they get. Well, no, thats incorrect. I'm an electrical contractor covering about 500+ jurisdictions across multiple states. I say that to point out I'm as qualified as anyone you know to give you the correct information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted June 9, 2022 Share Posted June 9, 2022 34 minutes ago, 416to305 said: Well that's the way Lutron says to do it when installing a 3-way switch; you permanently wire the other end on and use a Pico to replace it. And? This is nothing like wiring a FIXTURE on permanently. The one dimmer switch still maintains full control of the load, you're just passing through one link in the setup, not ALL links. You cannot compare the two at all. Even panelled lighting still allows you to go to the panel to 'hard' shut off a load if needed - what you're doing is stop that from happening at all. most national/international electrical codes do not disallow it - but some local codes specifically do. Here we've even had to ...uhh..educate... some inspectors to 'allow' keypads as an alternative for actual light switches (be it 3-ways, especially stairs, hidden switches/dimmers in nearby closets or even in one instance panelled lighting) In the end, I'm not saying you CANNOT - I'm just saying I consider it poor practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted June 9, 2022 Share Posted June 9, 2022 11 minutes ago, RyanE said: 11v? What's 11v? 10v? A Keypad Switch would do what I think would be useful, once you detach the load. RyanE ........ 110v RyanE 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted June 9, 2022 Share Posted June 9, 2022 5 minutes ago, lippavisual said: Plus, side step the inspector once and it will haunt you any time you work in that town/city forever. Well....only until he/she is terminated. And yes that has happened. Depends on how this is approached. Going via local authorities to create an example of HOW a certain (NEW) method/product is perfectly acceptable isn't always 'sidestepping' an inspector - it's giving them higher up approval for something that isn't clear for them to approve or disapprove. In that context, they tend to be more likely to be happy it's being done (clarified) than be ticked off about it. 5 minutes ago, lippavisual said: Sure, if you want to wait months to get any resolve passed the local authority. Usually weeks, but yes, generally easier to comply, if within reason. Sometimes the inspector will in fact claim the sky is purple. That's what a straight jacket is for. Sometimes the inspector will claim it's dark blue when it's light blue. Most inspectors aren't unreasonable though, and just need to be informed and kept (put back) in the loop on current technology. We've have had plenty of perfectly good conversations with inspectors (electrical and other) and taken away 'issues' by simply explaining/showing/demonstrating what is actually in place. Just don't ask me why I still have to have hard-wired 110v interconnected (but no battery back up required!!!!) fire alarms in an age where full battery back-up options on low voltage or wireless that last a decade and LITERALLY tell me when the battery is getting low or the device is getting unreliable, or any device in a chain isn't reporting in are common place and arguably far more reliable (and sometimes considerably cheaper). Oh and I want to clarify that a city/local authority inspector's job is to check if your install (whatever it might be) is SAFE as per current codes. They do not (should not) concern themselves with 'quality', or 'good use practise'. That is NOT their job or responsibility. Note the wording on your approval sticker. It'll say 'Accepted' - it won't say if it was barely or if it was done so well that a parade is in order. RyanE 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted June 9, 2022 Share Posted June 9, 2022 1 hour ago, Cyknight said: it's giving them higher up approval for something that isn't clear for them to approve or disapprove. In that context, they tend to be more likely to be happy it's being done (clarified) than be ticked off about it. Before I built my house, I had a good discussion with our inspector, because we were installing dimmers that had CAT5 connections in the same box. After our discussion, he verified that we were doing all the right steps (at the time), and was OK with it. If we had not communicated it with him, it could have been an adversarial process. Certainly they have some give and take, and there are appeals, but the best action is to work with them. That's most of what I was trying to communicate... Poorly... RyanE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brantlmcdonald Posted June 9, 2022 Share Posted June 9, 2022 ........ 110v110, 111, whatever it takes Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk therockhr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted June 9, 2022 Share Posted June 9, 2022 1 hour ago, RyanE said: Before I built my house, I had a good discussion with our inspector, because we were installing dimmers that had CAT5 connections in the same box. After our discussion, he verified that we were doing all the right steps (at the time), and was OK with it. If we had not communicated it with him, it could have been an adversarial process. Certainly they have some give and take, and there are appeals, but the best action is to work with them. That's most of what I was trying to communicate... Poorly... RyanE Oh yes, absolutely - I'm more talking about the cases where they just are not sure they can approve something - which means they can't approve it. We've dealt with this once or twice in the past where something was just so out of the norm, they/it needed a directive from above. RyanE 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted June 9, 2022 Author Share Posted June 9, 2022 2 hours ago, brantlmcdonald said: 110, 111, whatever it takes Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Mr Mom gets remembered so much for that line in particular but it was full of good ones. brantlmcdonald 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lippavisual Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 19 hours ago, brantlmcdonald said: Well, no, thats incorrect. I'm an electrical contractor covering about 500+ jurisdictions across multiple states. I say that to point out I'm as qualified as anyone you know to give you the correct information. Good for you?? Your jurisdictions aren't the same as everywhere else. As a business where the goal is to finish projects without delay, move on and get paid; my comment stands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TundraSonic Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 A few thoughts… LED's last a lot longer than other alternatives but they WILL burn out at some point. What alternatives do you want? Do you want to replace a $49 industry standard GU-10 lamp or a $189 proprietary integrated lamp or, if mfr is gone or no longer offering replacements, an entire fixture? Hue, LIFX and similar are potentially a safer bet here. Technology will improve, particularly color quality and flicker of LED lamps. Is it easier and less expensive to upgrade a GU10 lamp than a proprietary integrated fixture? Ketra for example, has good but not great color quality and there is much room for improvement. Hue and LIFX both have a longer way to go on color quality. But I can more easily replace them. I have a strong preference for industry standard over proprietary. ----- In our new place we've a bit of a mix of downlights. I believe 13 Juno, 15 Ketra, 42 LIFX GU10 and 93 Hue GU10 (along with a bunch of LIFX & Hue A19, candelabra, strips and other). We had a lot of LIFX & Hue in our prior house so were fairly familiar with them. LIFX has much better color quality for white and deeper/brighter colors overall. Hue has improved but still not as good as LIFX. ----- LIFX is WiFi based and can be a PITA. LIFX also doesn't like not having constant power and will often loose its programming if power is lost for any significant period of time. Hue is Zigbee based. Zigbee doesn't like walls or interference and there are very few Zigbee devices that include the lighting protocols in their meshing. So, with Hue you might need a lot of bridges (I think we're currently at 7). Worse, Hue bridges are not POE powered (which totally amazes me as they easily could be). So every bridge needs ethernet and a wall wart. So long as you can get Zigbee to it, Hue is rock solid and even after being turned off for several months. Most of our LIFX lamps get constant power and they've been OK. I think most manufacturers will have Zigbee included in their AP's in the near future so this should help considerably. ----- Hue's C4 driver is much better than the LIFX driver from Chowmain. Hue responds faster to C4 and does smoother dimming / crossfades. LIFX can have significant delays and will sometimes or often pop rather than dim/fade. The LIFX problems are with the Chowmain driver and how it is written. ----- FWIW, we do have hard switches for every Hue/LIFX circuit, but usually not in the rooms. Some are in closets, some are in the mechanical room. You need to be able to toggle LIFX on/off to reset/program. All lighting (above plus 68 channels of centralized dimmers for decorative fixtures) is controlled via C4, mostly keypads (each room entrance is required to have a keypad per NEC). Overall we're fairly happy with how it's going after 2 years in our new house. Next house: Likely all Hue downlights except for specialty like pin lights over the dining table. Juno and Ketra have slightly better light quality, and that's important to me, but I'm not sure that its enough better to warrant the risks of integrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 2 hours ago, TundraSonic said: Do you want to replace ... Hue, LIFX and similar are potentially a safer bet here. Sure those are choices to make, but there is no wrong or right here. Just to note - that 150-450 $ to replace integrated LED light tends to replace 3-5 or sometimes more 'regular' bulbs - so comparing it to the cost of a single $50 bulb is unfair. Regardless: it's a choice between design and cost/ease of maintenance. Which anyone prefers is up to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 2 hours ago, TundraSonic said: Hue's C4 driver is much better than the LIFX driver from Chowmain. Hue responds faster to C4 and does smoother dimming / crossfades. LIFX can have significant delays and will sometimes or often pop rather than dim/fade. The LIFX problems are with the Chowmain driver and how it is written. How do you know this is due to the driver, and not limitations in the LIFX API? RyanE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 1 hour ago, RyanE said: How do you know this is due to the driver, and not limitations in the LIFX API? RyanE And the entire driver was just rewritten? So I think your experience is based on the old driver, not the new one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 5 minutes ago, msgreenf said: And the entire driver was just rewritten? So I think your experience is based on the old driver, not the new one I only really ask because I have a pretty good degree of confidence in Alan and his crew. RyanE msgreenf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topspin14m Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 I only really ask because I have a pretty good degree of confidence in Alan and his crew. RyanELIFX is definitely not snappy - even when you use it natively. Also, it’s very dependent on your Wi-Fi signal. So I would be surprised if this were a driver issue…Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk RyanE 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TundraSonic Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 The Chowmain driver, at least the old one, uses only the cloud API so every command/ack has to go through the LIFX cloud. This is slow and, due to apparent lack of positive ack's, quite error prone. If they've redone the driver to talk directly to the lamps and added ack's so that they can insure that you get the result that you expect then it should be much better. Unfortunately I have to wait on our integrator to install it. Topspin14m 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 22 minutes ago, TundraSonic said: If they've redone the driver to talk directly to the lamps and added ack's so that they can insure that you get the result that you expect then it should be much better. Unfortunately I have to wait on our integrator to install it. I guarantee that if there is a local API is available, they would use it. If it's not available, I wouldn't blame the slowness on the driver, I'd blame it on LIFX not providing local control. RyanE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TundraSonic Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 We had numerous conversations with Chowmain, LIFX and C4. There was a local/direct API available. LIFX was baffled that they'd not used it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LollerAgent Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, TundraSonic said: We had numerous conversations with Chowmain, LIFX and C4. There was a local/direct API available. LIFX was baffled that they'd not used it. The Berto LIFX driver makes use of the local API. . Edited June 10, 2022 by LollerAgent TundraSonic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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