Moving house, wanting to try a different platform...

[wnpublic]

On 7/31/2022 at 5:15 PM, RyanE said:

Oh, and there's no iOS / Android dedicated app, and no remote access that you don't setup completely by yourself.

The 'iOS / Android App' is just your local home's Home Assistant generated website, so it looks like something from the early 2000's, but with better graphing...

RyanE

All fud. 
there’s an app, and remote access is easy. It is far faster to access than C4. And the camera feeds and door cam actually work. And you can actually customize the interface to look and work how you want, as opposed to a static, already dated interface whose sole customization is “favorites”. (And whose big new feature in the last year was “color wheel” LOL)
 

 

[Amr]

3 hours ago, wnpublic said:

All fud. 
there’s an app, and remote access is easy. It is far faster to access than C4. And the camera feeds and door cam actually work. And you can actually customize the interface to look and work how you want, as opposed to a static, already dated interface whose sole customization is “favorites”. (And whose big new feature in the last year was “color wheel” LOL)
 

 

It was not last year, it was this year, great addition by any means! If you don’t mind can u share with us your HA Interface?

[eggzlot]

5 hours ago, wnpublic said:

True, but not in the way you believe. 

Yes you know what I believe as we are personal friends

missed ya bud!

[wnpublic]

8 hours ago, Amr said:

It was not last year, it was this year, great addition by any means! If you don’t mind can u share with us your HA Interface?

Already did, on the page before.  That's the audio distribution interface.  Can play any source (local, streaming) to any endpoint (e.g. sonos, TVs, receiver) or group of endpoints.  Below is a partial view of the main screen.  Among other things, you're seeing a cloud integration with a PurpleAir AQI sensor on my property, as well as a local integration with a weather station on the property.  A bunch of automations tied to those.  You're also seeing presence detection for various family members, easy as pie, and lots of automations around the climate control (also pictured) and the lighting are based on that. If I’m away, the color changes from green to orange and you can click the icon to see my GPS location on a map.  I also gave provided the camera view - it's instantaneous when you click the tab.  Is it reminiscent of early 2000 Windows? I dunno. I know there are more imaginative users than I - some have got their whole house 3d-modeled and the interface revolves around that.  It's you know, up to the user.

[eggzlot]

2 hours ago, wnpublic said:

Already did, on the page before.  That's the audio distribution interface.  Can play any source (local, streaming) to any endpoint (e.g. sonos, TVs, receiver) or group of endpoints.  Below is a partial view of the main screen.  Among other things, you're seeing a cloud integration with a PurpleAir AQI sensor on my property, as well as a local integration with a weather station on the property.  A bunch of automations tied to those.  You're also seeing presence detection for various family members, easy as pie, and lots of automations around the climate control (also pictured) and the lighting are based on that. If I’m away, the color changes from green to orange and you can click the icon to see my GPS location on a map.  I also gave provided the camera view - it's instantaneous when you click the tab.  Is it reminiscent of early 2000 Windows? I dunno. I know there are more imaginative users than I - some have got their whole house 3d-modeled and the interface revolves around that.  It's you know, up to the user.

this reminds me of splash tiles which can work for free within c4

id still take the OS 3 layout though you *maybe* beat out OS2

[Amr]

7 hours ago, wnpublic said:

Already did, on the page before.  That's the audio distribution interface.  Can play any source (local, streaming) to any endpoint (e.g. sonos, TVs, receiver) or group of endpoints.  Below is a partial view of the main screen.  Among other things, you're seeing a cloud integration with a PurpleAir AQI sensor on my property, as well as a local integration with a weather station on the property.  A bunch of automations tied to those.  You're also seeing presence detection for various family members, easy as pie, and lots of automations around the climate control (also pictured) and the lighting are based on that. If I’m away, the color changes from green to orange and you can click the icon to see my GPS location on a map.  I also gave provided the camera view - it's instantaneous when you click the tab.  Is it reminiscent of early 2000 Windows? I dunno. I know there are more imaginative users than I - some have got their whole house 3d-modeled and the interface revolves around that.  It's you know, up to the user.

That is cool, I started with HA 7 years ago but get board and decided to go for C4, I still have it running over my Synology NAS. It’s pretty powerful but very DIY and with me coming older, I don’t have the time or capacity to tinker around anymore, I just need something that works and OS3 is just works and my family approved it, my wife never approved HA, so here we are

[Andrew luecke]

9 hours ago, wnpublic said:

Already did, on the page before.  That's the audio distribution interface.  Can play any source (local, streaming) to any endpoint (e.g. sonos, TVs, receiver) or group of endpoints.  Below is a partial view of the main screen.  Among other things, you're seeing a cloud integration with a PurpleAir AQI sensor on my property, as well as a local integration with a weather station on the property.  A bunch of automations tied to those.  You're also seeing presence detection for various family members, easy as pie, and lots of automations around the climate control (also pictured) and the lighting are based on that. If I’m away, the color changes from green to orange and you can click the icon to see my GPS location on a map.  I also gave provided the camera view - it's instantaneous when you click the tab.  Is it reminiscent of early 2000 Windows? I dunno. I know there are more imaginative users than I - some have got their whole house 3d-modeled and the interface revolves around that.  It's you know, up to the user.

No idea why you posted the cameras.. it's literally the same as C4.. 

 

Post a picture of the Control interface.. That's the biggest problem with many of these "omg, this home automation system is amazing posts". They always have lots of bloat on the frontpage, and the thing people use most (control), is often inefficient / lacking.. 

In fact, in your case, you've duplicated the weather information twice (50% of the space), and added Sunset and Sunrise for whatever reason. I run a hiking group, and we did a evening walk yesterday.. Even I simply assume its at 5:30 (the sunrise/sunset barely changes throughout the year), and I timed the walk against that (and simply looked at the sky to ensure we were past the waterfalls before sunset). So, I'm a little unsure why you'd put something on the main screen which barely changes?

The only genuinely useful widget on your homepage for automation purposes (thermostat), can be done on C4 too..   The idea is interesting, but, what other 2 live tiles would you want besides weather (which can probably be tiled in C4) and calendar? 

[wnpublic]

11 minutes ago, Andrew luecke said:

No idea why you posted the cameras.. it's literally the same as C4..

No. The C4 interface for cameras lags. It’s a big difference.  But I understand your motivations. And the fact that you don’t see value in geofencing and presence detection proves why C4 continues to lose money quickly, and perhaps suggests you may not have people in your life interested in where you are, or you in them. I find that sad.  

[wnpublic]

2 hours ago, Amr said:

That is cool, I started with HA 7 years ago but get board and decided to go for C4, I still have it running over my Synology NAS. It’s pretty powerful but very DIY and with me coming older, I don’t have the time or capacity to tinker around anymore, I just need something that works and OS3 is just works and my family approved it, my wife never approved HA, so here we are

Thanks.  I know what you mean, my wife is a big influence on acceptance.  She had the opposite view of C4 - she paid more attention to the budget for Home 1 than I did, and from the beginning was asking why C4 didn't do anything she cared about, like integrate her google calendar, and give her presence info for family members and do things based on that information.  "Too much for too little," she said; she didn't care at all for the boy toy stuff like home theater.  She took to HA immediately for house 2 and 3, especially after i told her it only cost $100 for a crappy old thin client from HP, and my time.....Everybody has an audience they need to please.  cheers.

[Andrew luecke]

1 hour ago, wnpublic said:

No. The C4 interface for cameras lags. It’s a big difference.  But I understand your motivations. And the fact that you don’t see value in geofencing and presence detection proves why C4 continues to lose money quickly, and perhaps suggests you may not have people in your life interested in where you are, or you in them. I find that sad. 

 

Post the screenshot I requested please of the control interface. 

Geofencing isn't reliable for lots of reasons. Is that correct?

Give exact examples of where it is useful.

And please answer, you can't detect which rooms people are in, yes or no?

[wnpublic]

13 minutes ago, Andrew luecke said:

Give exact examples of where it is useful.

It is useful for people who have friends and loved ones.  I will leave you to imagine how that might be.

16 minutes ago, Andrew luecke said:

Post the screenshot I requested please of the control interface.

I'm not looking for validation from Internet strangers.  I posted because the other poster seemed genuinely interested.  I will come back and see how you're feeling after the earnings call next week.

[msgreenf]

Since half my house hold is so young they don't have devices I personally don't find geo valuable. Clearly that will change one day and the potential will increase for value to me personally. 

[wnpublic]

3 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

Since half my house hold is so young they don't have devices I personally don't find geo valuable. Clearly that will change one day and the potential will increase for value to me personally. 

For when you have teenagers:  "at home" and "left home" detection is pretty easy - the geolocation tracker in the app plus wifi connection (you can attach multiple trackers to a defined person) is good.  You can also get reasonably good actionable events for entering or leaving zones like "school" or "work" but there is some lag, because the tracker is not constantly updating - around 3-5 minutes.

[Amr]

Geofencing is totally different than room presence, occupancy sensors are laking and there are very few choices for a good solution for that, RoomMe is not bad but I have been waiting for their Gen 2 hardware for too long now that I lost interest, it’s not fancy tech but it’s very much needed for homes, at least my home!

[RyanE]

On 8/5/2022 at 11:22 PM, wnpublic said:

All fud.

I didn't say anything that wasn't true.  It's not FUD to tell it like it is.  The UI is a web page, not a custom iOS and Android app, and doesn't offer 'out of the box' VPN.

Nothing I said indicated that you couldn't make Home Assistant work great.  It's just not 'everyday easy'.

I did say it looked early 2000's, which was a bit rude, but was also an opinion.  That said, I have seen Home Assistant setups that *do* look that bad... 

OS3's UI isn't for everyone, but it's consistent, and automatic, there's no setup, and it certainly has value.  The lighting UI (just one list, not room-based, etc.) and non-existent multi-room audio functionality in Home Assistant are huge turn-offs for me, but may not be for someone else.

Different strokes for different folks.

RyanE

[Andrew luecke]

8 hours ago, wnpublic said:

It is useful for people who have friends and loved ones.  I will leave you to imagine how that might be.

I'm not looking for validation from Internet strangers.  I posted because the other poster seemed genuinely interested.  I will come back and see how you're feeling after the earnings call next week.

1. AV control and installation efficiency is a strong point in C4 when compared to many DIY systems. Control4 is a tool, which is designed for control. It's all good to smack-talk the UI, but if the AV control sucks in the Home Automation system you're pushing and it isn't suitable for large jobs, then it's useless for 90% of C4 jobs anyway... Totally different markets.. Home Assistant definitely has theirs, but, its clearly not the same as C4..  A nice UI, doesn't reflect a good system.. 
2. Many phones lie about their GPS accuracy, don't have RAIM/FDE, etc. That's fine for DIY Geofencing.  But in a professional system, things need to work properly. You won't be using it to open your garage door anytime soon, or turning off your lights when you leave (because of the lag).  Alternatives which installers do though is perform actions when the front door is unlocked, arm/disarm the alarm (like turn off the lights, and all AV when the alarm  is armed), use motion sensors,  or use licence plate recognition to perform actions as you roll up into the driveway (like turn on lights in the driveway). These are reliable and definitive. Accurate, low latency geofencing would be awesome. At the moment though, the reason I say its not that useful for most applications is because you can't sit there 30s-5 mins for your front gate to open. So yes, the technology has huge potential ONCE these issues are fixed. But they haven't been yet. Room presence products like RoomMe are available for C4 and have their applications to assist. But the reason I mentioned it, was because it felt like you mentioned it, like it was a big deal (but most systems can't use it if its not reliable).  

Either way, eggzlot is correct imho. It's probably not comparable with C4, unless you're only doing lighting, or have a REALLY simple system. Home assistant also doesn't  appear to have a proper physical remote available for control either (which is extremely common in AV oriented home automation systems). 

[Amr]

Putting DIY vs professional HA systems aside, the Geofencing/Occupancy is of great importance and I wish we can advance in this area, I find Apple Geofencing is the closest to practice, not yet that accurate but for a commercial system its acceptable to me, 30m and closer to my house the Garage Door Icon Pops up in my CarPlay system is as cool as hell, not ideal but closer to life, I just hit Open when am < 10m, by the time I'm there the door's open, this wasn't there 2 years ago, I believe huge advancements can be achieved, I wish RoomMe comes up with better hardware or a competing technology emerges!

[ekohn00]

On 8/3/2022 at 5:43 PM, Amr said:

Exactly DSLR’s are not for the masses, I have 2 BTW, I still love my Nikon and Lenses Kits, I hear you, phones can only do one thing good being a phone.

My Point of View here; Video Distrbution is an ancient setup, if what you have is streaming service, then u probably end up with one or two streamers max for every TV, so if you don’t do cable, satellite, etc. what are you going to distribute, this is the argument.

Totally get it.  I always saw a need for video distribution, but avoided the high costs by living without. 
 

today we’re a streaming household. We just have an appletv at every tv, and stream everything.  

[ILoveC4]

Reading this thread has me thinking. As I type this, I’m down at my vacation home that we also offer as a luxury AirBNB/short term rental. We have 9 TV’s that each have a Roku on them and 3 different Bluetooth speakers. I’m continually reminded at how much I love video and audio distribution, and my family comments too on why we don’t have the same setup here as we do at home. The media players at each TV isn’t as good an experience, and every TV has two remotes because the Roku remote won’t do the sleep timer. 
 

I also have a HomeKit setup at home that’s just for me…haven’t felt like it’s ready for the family yet but keeping trying. I’ve also had it unplugged for a month or so and haven’t noticed. The one thing it does that I value is the MyQ integration and the ability to create some basic graphs in the UI. 

[Amr]

25 minutes ago, ILoveC4 said:

Reading this thread has me thinking. As I type this, I’m down at my vacation home that we also offer as a luxury AirBNB/short term rental. We have 9 TV’s that each have a Roku on them and 3 different Bluetooth speakers. I’m continually reminded at how much I love video and audio distribution, and my family comments too on why we don’t have the same setup here as we do at home. The media players at each TV isn’t as good an experience, and every TV has two remotes because the Roku remote won’t do the sleep timer. 
 

I also have a HomeKit setup at home that’s just for me…haven’t felt like it’s ready for the family yet but keeping trying. I’ve also had it unplugged for a month or so and haven’t noticed. The one thing it does that I value is the MyQ integration and the ability to create some basic graphs in the UI. 

I went the full extreme, deployed an EA1/CA1 @ my summer house, just to get rid of all these remotes in Family/Master Rooms, I have 3 TV's only, added a Soundbar with a built in FTV, a couple of Sonos speakers for distributed Audio, a projector for backyard nights and A/C automation with Sensibo, through some R260 Remotes and some GlobalCache for ZIR, no T3/T4 just Android desktops and life is so good

[Amr]

1 hour ago, ILoveC4 said:

I also have a HomeKit setup at home that’s just for me…haven’t felt like it’s ready for the family yet but keeping trying. I’ve also had it unplugged for a month or so and haven’t noticed. The one thing it does that I value is the MyQ integration and the ability to create some basic graphs in the UI. 

One thing that is lovely with HomeKit is auto-switching of homes by location, something I wish C4 would consider, but the use case is very weak I guess!

[South Africa C4 user]

I have C4 at both my main residence and my holiday home.  I must be honest, I read these threads and shudder.  I have become so used to complete automation that I would be lost without it!

[BXTR]

There are those who love to tinker, constantly need to maintain their ever evolving ecosystem and save money

And there are those who want consistency, reliability and a system that just works. They like automation, have money but have no time or desire to constantly tinker, this is Control4’s customer

 

[wnpublic]

1 hour ago, South Africa C4 user said:

I have C4 at both my main residence and my holiday home.  I must be honest, I read these threads and shudder.  I have become so used to complete automation that I would be lost without it!

Like someone else said, different strokes I guess.  I made C4 in Residence 1 someone else's problem at the start of the year.  (Note:  you will not recoup your investment*, so only do it if it's something you really want.  The buyers were mid-level FAANG, accustomed to premium homes, and their reaction was basically WTF is this sh$@, why can't it control an Apple TV over IP?**, and why is this DS2 thing so awful?)  Residence 2, 3, 4, and shortly 5, are all Home Assistant, all highly "automated" as you say, and I "shudder" at how limited C4 was, when I see the things they are doing, at a lower cost, that couldn't be done in C4.  If I have any advice that isn't partisan, it'd be: pay someone to put the proper infrastructure in the walls - not tied to a platform like, for instance, C4 panelized.  Then you can pick what you like for the top of the stack, and swap it, too, if you don't like what it's doing.

 

*by which i mean, your C4 will not be separately valued as a plus which increases buyer's bid.  it's neutral or (guessing) possibly negative, if the system is an old one.

**The idea that failure to integrate smoothly with Apple TV might somehow be Apple's fault, not C4's and just buy a Shield anyways, is the first thing to evaporate when you step out of the bubble.

[South Africa C4 user]

15 minutes ago, wnpublic said:

Like someone else said, different strokes I guess.  I made C4 in Residence 1 someone else's problem at the start of the year.  (Note:  you will not recoup your investment, so only do it if it's something you really want.  The buyers were mid-level FAANG, accustomed to premium homes, and their reaction was basically WTF is this sh$@, why can't it control an Apple TV over IP?*, and why is this DS2 thing so awful?)  Residence 2, 3, 4, and shortly 5, are all Home Assistant, all highly "automated" as you say, and I "shudder" at how limited C4 was, when I see the things they are doing, at a lower cost, that couldn't be done in C4.  If I have any advice that isn't partisan, it'd be: pay someone to put the proper infrastructure in the walls - not tied to a platform like, for instance, C4 panelized.  Then you can pick what you like for the top of the stack, and swap it, too, if you don't like what it's doing.

 

*The idea that failure to integrate smoothly with Apple TV might somehow be Apple's fault, not C4's and just buy a Shield anyways, is the first thing to evaporate when you step out of the bubble.

Interesting thoughts.  I admit my bias, I genuinely love C4.

On your comments, I have read lots and lots of posts complaining about the Apple TV IP integration.  I have 7 or 8 Apple TV’s across 2 residences and they have all worked flawlessly since the day that the Apple Bridge driver was released.  There was one exception when an update required a reboot of the Director (both residences).  I agree that this sort of thing should just work and I know many folks have not had my experience. But my experience has been that this just works. Kudos to my dealer for getting this right.

On panelised lighting… I have wall acne (C4 wall acne) at my main residence and am very pleased that I went with panelised lighting at my Beach House.  This also just works.  That said,  my maintenance people managed to close and open all of the wrong valves on my pool last week and in the chaos (including losing half of my pool water - around 50,000 litres lost) they managed to get water all over one of my panelised lighting boards (14 modules so over 100 circuits).  This will be a costly repair but not a C4 fault.  I am very glad that my dealer recommended having at least one load in every room controlled directly by a keypad dimmer or I would have been in the dark this weekend! 
 

My understanding is that other major automation system have an equivalent setup to C4 panelised lighting so if one was of a mind to do so, one could still dump the C4 equipment and move to something else?