Why Control 4?

[wnpublic]

3 hours ago, Sherwin Lee said:

DIY solutions come and go but my home will do 100 years or more.

c'mon now.

[Sherwin Lee]

How old is your home? You plan on rebuilding it every 15 years? Homes on average are 30 years plus with all their electrical cables still installed. I want to know my homes system that controls it will be future proof. DIY in 30 years probably won't be here. Even Microsoft 30 year tech is way old and probably not usable. However Microsoft is still here and if you followed their upgrades you would still be functional.

[Topspin14m]

I did DIY for 5 years when we had a smaller condo.  It's a lot of work.  The stuff generally isn't as stable -- so I was constantly fixing things.  I realized that C4 allows me to do my own simple fixes, but when something needs to be rewired or replaced and it's more complicated, rather than lose my whole day, I call my C4 vendor and they fix it for me.  I don't need to sit around surfing the internet, downloading GitHub code, rigging a raspberry pi and all that stuff.  Also, C4 is way more stable than what I was using before (Smartthings).  Plus, now that I'm in a bigger place, all those problems would be magnified -- I'd have even more devices to install and maintain.  Ultimately, I just didn't have the time.  

Why not build your own kit cars instead of buying a car?  Kind of the same thing.  If it's what you love doing and you want it to be your hobby, then sure go DIY.  Or if you just want to dabble and install a few Hue bulbs here and there, no need for C4.  But if you want a full solution in a bigger home, it's just a ton of work otherwise.  

Plus, then I sold the condo and guess what happens?  You have to transfer the stuff to a new owner who might not be as tech savvy.  Instead of leaving a card and saying "call this guy," the only tech support is you...  It's a pain.

[wnpublic]

3 hours ago, Topspin14m said:

I did DIY for 5 years when we had a smaller condo.  It's a lot of work.  The stuff generally isn't as stable -- so I was constantly fixing things.  I realized that C4 allows me to do my own simple fixes, but when something needs to be rewired or replaced and it's more complicated, rather than lose my whole day, I call my C4 vendor and they fix it for me.  I don't need to sit around surfing the internet, downloading GitHub code, rigging a raspberry pi and all that stuff.  Also, C4 is way more stable than what I was using before (Smartthings).  Plus, now that I'm in a bigger place, all those problems would be magnified -- I'd have even more devices to install and maintain.  Ultimately, I just didn't have the time.  

Why not build your own kit cars instead of buying a car?  Kind of the same thing.  If it's what you love doing and you want it to be your hobby, then sure go DIY.  Or if you just want to dabble and install a few Hue bulbs here and there, no need for C4.  But if you want a full solution in a bigger home, it's just a ton of work otherwise.  

Plus, then I sold the condo and guess what happens?  You have to transfer the stuff to a new owner who might not be as tech savvy.  Instead of leaving a card and saying "call this guy," the only tech support is you...  It's a pain.

I'll just agree to disagree.  I think this (the extent to which DIY/open source has progressed in terms of features/stability/usability) is a blind spot for people here, but your point about the appeal of just having someone else manage it all probably does make sense for a number of people.

[terminaldisclaimer]

The big issue for DIY is the lack of a solid unified remote control. HomeAssistant is pretty good. You pair it with Lutron lighting system, and it comes pretty darn close to Control4 (assuming you don't care about the TV interfaces). But what all of the DIY systems all lack is a solid remote control you can use with them. Sure, you can hack stuff together. And maybe there is some weird stuff out there, like Ava or something. But the remote options are not abundant. That's why I ultimately chose C4. 

[k3nnis]

8 hours ago, terminaldisclaimer said:

The big issue for DIY is the lack of a solid unified remote control. HomeAssistant is pretty good. You pair it with Lutron lighting system, and it comes pretty darn close to Control4 (assuming you don't care about the TV interfaces). But what all of the DIY systems all lack is a solid remote control you can use with them. Sure, you can hack stuff together. And maybe there is some weird stuff out there, like Ava or something. But the remote options are not abundant. That's why I ultimately chose C4. 

Which remotes do you use for your C4?

[Andrew luecke]

19 minutes ago, k3nnis said:

Which remotes do you use for your C4?

There are 2 on the market.

The SR260 which is a zigbee based more traditional remote with physical buttons. This requires an installer to add to your system (although, installers can possibly add it remotely if required, if they know that your system is ready for it, as you'll require zigbee coverage)

The Neeo, which is a touchscreen oriented remote which uses wifi (and can be installed without an installer)

 

Whilst not a remote, they also sell a T4 portable touchscreen too which is wifi based but requires an installer for installation

[k3nnis]

2 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

There are 2 on the market.

The SR260 which is a zigbee based more traditional remote with physical buttons. This requires an installer to add to your system (although, installers can possibly add it remotely if required, if they know that your system is ready for it, as you'll require zigbee coverage)

The Neeo, which is a touchscreen oriented remote which uses wifi (and can be installed without an installer)

 

Whilst not a remote, they also sell a T4 portable touchscreen too which is wifi based but requires an installer for installation

Thanks for the reply. Thinking whether a tabletop is worth it or just use my android tablet, iPad/iPhone.

[eggzlot]

2 minutes ago, k3nnis said:

Thanks for the reply. Thinking whether a tabletop is worth it or just use my android tablet, iPad/iPhone.

Big difference is lack of intercom on 3rd party tablets and the fact that you need to click the app to get started where a t4 is “always on” the app

its expensive hardware for sure.  I have 4 hardwired and 1 portable for intercom purposes 

[Andrew luecke]

Lower risk too. Apple in particular has a habit of changing permissions and restricting API's or changing their policies to require changes to 3rd party applications. On the T4's though, Snap has full control over the entire software "stack" on the unit 

[k3nnis]

Thanks guys. I don’t use intercom, if that is the case maybe the tabletop may not be worth it for me?

[zaphod]

3 hours ago, k3nnis said:

Thanks for the reply. Thinking whether a tabletop is worth it or just use my android tablet, iPad/iPhone.

If you are using if for watching TV and you are using the remote fairly often then you will want the SR-260. If you just use it to start Netflix shows or other stuff then you may be fine with a phone or tablet. Most of my TV watching is sports that I watch a little behind real time and I ride the transport buttons very hard to skip through commercials, half time, stoppages of play, etc.  So I want a remote with hard buttons that I don’t have to look at  

 

[Topspin14m]

23 hours ago, wnpublic said:

I'll just agree to disagree.  I think this (the extent to which DIY/open source has progressed in terms of features/stability/usability) is a blind spot for people here, but your point about the appeal of just having someone else manage it all probably does make sense for a number of people.

1.5 years ago I was running my own DIY system with state of the art products throughout.  I assure you -- I have no blind spots.  I had over 100 items mapped in Smartthings and HomeKit.  I don't work for C4--I was open to any product and I was fully prepared to go DIY again in this house.  That said, you get to a point where DIY hasn't progressed enough and you start pushing the limits with these systems.  At over 100 devices in SmartThings, it was getting clunky.  Hubitat had similar issues.  Z-wave stinks.  Zigbee is okay, but more limited on the DIY front.  Wifi doesn't scale well.  To build a really good system, you need to use a variety of different connection methods and that just gets really complicated without a central processing system that has heft and great support.

Ultimately, DIY is designed mostly for people who want to dabble and set up a few switches/smart thermostats/maybe a couple cameras.  Once you start pushing it, that's when you will have problems.  In contrast, C4 is designed to be a whole home solution by people who are accountable when things break.  Big difference in quality.  

[wnpublic]

57 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

1.5 years ago I was running my own DIY system with state of the art products throughout.  I assure you -- I have no blind spots.  I had over 100 items mapped in Smartthings and HomeKit.  I don't work for C4--I was open to any product and I was fully prepared to go DIY again in this house.  That said, you get to a point where DIY hasn't progressed enough and you start pushing the limits with these systems.  At over 100 devices in SmartThings, it was getting clunky.  Hubitat had similar issues.  Z-wave stinks.  Zigbee is okay, but more limited on the DIY front.  Wifi doesn't scale well.  To build a really good system, you need to use a variety of different connection methods and that just gets really complicated without a central processing system that has heft and great support.

Ultimately, DIY is designed mostly for people who want to dabble and set up a few switches/smart thermostats/maybe a couple cameras.  Once you start pushing it, that's when you will have problems.  In contrast, C4 is designed to be a whole home solution by people who are accountable when things break.  Big difference in quality.  

Nothing about the automations at the properties I use HA at strike me as simple, limited or clunky. But it’s too hot today to argue - so I’ll just state that I disagree. 

[Cyknight]

On 9/2/2022 at 3:19 PM, wnpublic said:

These analogies are only on point if the Sony and Mercedes are locked at 55 MPH, have manual roll-down windows, and otherwise lack features that the "lesser" brands offer standard.  The other explanations on this thread, regarding customers who just want their core functions to work, want a support person to manage it, and don't care if it's the most feature-rich, or are very focused on AV distribution, are a lot more persuasive.

Yes my Sony TV is locked at 55 MPH.

But you go and drive your your 'on point' TCL.

[wnpublic]

34 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

Yes my Sony TV is locked at 55 MPH.

But you go and drive your your 'on point' TCL.

Are you answering the question “tell me you don’t understand how analogies work without saying ‘I don’t understand how analogies work?’”  You’re my favorite poster. 

[Cyknight]

14 hours ago, wnpublic said:

Are you answering the question “tell me you don’t understand how analogies work without saying ‘I don’t understand how analogies work?’”  You’re my favorite poster. 

LOL, let me guess, your many pieces of paper mean you're right and couldn't possibly have made a silly mistake. Keep breaking speed records with TVs.

[Topspin14m]

On 9/5/2022 at 7:56 PM, wnpublic said:

Nothing about the automations at the properties I use HA at strike me as simple, limited or clunky. But it’s too hot today to argue - so I’ll just state that I disagree. 

It's not just automations.  It's the system as a whole.  Control4 has pretty sophisticated processing units -- you don't get that with a SmartThings or Hubitat hub.  Start loading 200 devices into a $100 hub and you'll find that the connections break.  All of a sudden random switches start disappearing and have to be reconnected once every couple weeks.  You get lag when you try to turn things on and off.  The polling is off -- it says switches are on that are really off.  It just gets overloaded.  Then you have to look at the connection methodology.  Many DIY devices are basic wifi devices.  Do you want to have 70+ light switches taking up your wifi IP addresses?  Probably not.  Z-wave?  Well that's really slow and clunky.  Lutron Caseta is good, but limited to 75 devices, including remotes.  If you want a higher end Lutron product?  Well now you need a dealer.  

It's just all about scale.  

[therockhr]

9 hours ago, Topspin14m said:

Lutron Caseta is good, but limited to 75 devices, including remotes.  If you want a higher end Lutron product?  Well now you need a dealer.  

in most cases you will not need a Lutron dealer.

you only need a dealer on homeworks and certain functions of ra. most of which users who want to DIY probably arent going to need.

[Topspin14m]

1 hour ago, therockhr said:

in most cases you will not need a Lutron dealer.

you only need a dealer on homeworks and certain functions of ra. most of which users who want to DIY probably arent going to need.

The only consumer Lutron product is Caseta, right?  And that's limited to 75 devices?  My point was for larger Lutron installations you do need a dealer.  And, you also need a dealer if you want nicer Lutron switches -- the Caseta style are not my favorite.

[ChzBurger]

On 9/5/2022 at 5:56 PM, Topspin14m said:

1.5 years ago I was running my own DIY system with state of the art products throughout.  I assure you -- I have no blind spots.  I had over 100 items mapped in Smartthings and HomeKit.  I don't work for C4--I was open to any product and I was fully prepared to go DIY again in this house.  That said, you get to a point where DIY hasn't progressed enough and you start pushing the limits with these systems.  At over 100 devices in SmartThings, it was getting clunky.  Hubitat had similar issues.  Z-wave stinks.  Zigbee is okay, but more limited on the DIY front.  Wifi doesn't scale well.  To build a really good system, you need to use a variety of different connection methods and that just gets really complicated without a central processing system that has heft and great support.

I think these comments are at best incomplete. 1.5 years ago SmartThings was not leading edge in DIY. SmartThings issues were/are due to the mostly non-local processing. Hubitat was created in 2017 to run devices locally because of the poor reliability of SmartThings. If your DIY knowledge is 1.5 years old then you really are not up to date in knowing how the system performs.

As far as protocols go, notice that C4 is integrating Z-Wave into the new Core processors. Z-Wave can perform well, but there are lots of points of potential issues. Hubitat got screwed by Silicon Labs. Hubitat was the first controller with SL's new 700 series chip and it had a lot of issues that were not corrected until this year. And even today some issues remain. I'm pretty sure those issues played a role in SL's fairly quick release of the 800 series chipset. Any C4 dealer wishing to use Z-Wave devices is going to have to come up to speed on those potential issues. Z-Wave is very sensitive to the mesh quality. Z-Wave as a low frequency protocol is also sensitive to the number and frequency of messages being transmitted. The devices that cause issues with a mesh are the "chatty" ones, like power reporting plugs. Z-Wave has a couple security protocols that should be avoided except for locks and doors as they add significant overhead to the mesh. You'll need to pay attention to repeaters. Having said that, there are some great Z-Wave devices that offer new or alternative options to dealers. My primary lighting is RadioRA 2. But Jasco makes some nice dimmers with a motion sensor built in. Perfect for bathrooms. Zooz has some nice offerings like heavy duty plugs that you can add to appliances to determine running state. They also have a couple nice relays that can be useful in things like garage door automation. Ring makes some nice sensors that can be added to any Z-Wave system.

11 hours ago, Topspin14m said:

It's not just automations.  It's the system as a whole.  Control4 has pretty sophisticated processing units -- you don't get that with a SmartThings or Hubitat hub.  Start loading 200 devices into a $100 hub and you'll find that the connections break.  All of a sudden random switches start disappearing and have to be reconnected once every couple weeks.  You get lag when you try to turn things on and off.  The polling is off -- it says switches are on that are really off.  It just gets overloaded.  Then you have to look at the connection methodology.  Many DIY devices are basic wifi devices.  Do you want to have 70+ light switches taking up your wifi IP addresses?  Probably not.  Z-wave?  Well that's really slow and clunky.  Lutron Caseta is good, but limited to 75 devices, including remotes.  If you want a higher end Lutron product?  Well now you need a dealer.

SmartThings was underpowered due to placing most of the processing on the cloud. They are currently trying to make things truly local as they shut their cloud down. Will they succeed? Who knows. It seems your poor experiences are also based on using Z-Wave lighting. Z-Wave is certainly more prone to issues (see above). Hubitat has no problem running more than 100 devices. I'm close to 200. About 1/2 of them are Lutron. Only about 10 are Z-Wave. As said above, anyone can get RadioRA 2/3 devices these days. Training is easy and free. To address more than 75 device in Caséta issue, the solution is the same for C4, Hubitat, Home Assistant. Add a second Smart Bridge Pro. It makes the Lutron phone app a bit clunky, that's about the only issue.

At the end of the day these systems are all fairly capable tools. As I said before, C4 has no DIY comparison in AV, I really like my SR260. But on non-AV there are highly capable competitors that C4 dealers should know about even if they don't have any desire to use or sell on a day to day basis. As of today, IMO today it is easier to implement sophisticated lighting automation in Hubitat than C4. That doesn't make C4 a bad product. As I also said previously, competition is good.

Finally, different customers have different needs. Another great C4 attribute is support. My in laws are in the process of changing out a bunch of 20 year old lighting and AV and I had no problem recommending C4 to them. They have a Savant system in their main house and they've had a fair number of problems. I'm pretty sure a significant contributor is their dealer not having the process of working with technophobes in their 80s down. I don't think they'll have that same issue with C4, but if they do the breadth of the dealer network is available to address the issues.