wnpublic Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 2 hours ago, niall said: It's legal to "Jailbreak" your iPhone, Xbox, Playstation, etc etc so it's going to be the same with Control4.https://www.wired.com/2010/07/feds-ok-iphone-jailbreaking/ The truth on the ground is a lot more complicated. There would be arguments that hacking a software tool rather than the device itself is a distinction, and there are other, non-DMCA based claims that you might run into if snapone was sufficiently motivated - like a Computer Fraud and Abuse Act ("CFAA") claim. And what people often miss is that even unsuccessful legal claims against you are expensive, time-consuming, and anxiety-producing. (I'm sure various detractors will say I don't know what i'm talking about. I promise i am intimately familiar with such claims). That said, the most likely thing is that the company has neither the money nor the bandwidth to go after the diy community as long as it is perceived to be a comparatively small group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 The topic of this thread is OS 3.3.1. No one is going to 'fix' this, either way, or convince those with the opposite opinion on the matter. My gentle suggestion is to let it go, whatever your opinion. RyanE niall and Andrew luecke 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wnpublic Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 10 minutes ago, RyanE said: The topic of this thread is OS 3.3.1. No one is going to 'fix' this, either way, or convince those with the opposite opinion on the matter. My gentle suggestion is to let it go, whatever your opinion. RyanE Or, just hear me out, people could continue to talk on a forum as long as there are other people interested in also talking. Those not interested could not read, or participate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 5 minutes ago, wnpublic said: Or, just hear me out, people could continue to talk on a forum as long as there are other people interested in also talking. Those not interested could not read, or participate. Or, hear me out, do whatever you want when I make a gentle suggestion. RyanE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Africa C4 user Posted October 4, 2022 Author Share Posted October 4, 2022 Or start a new thread (which some will read and some won’t)… as the OP, I would like to see this particular thread stick to OS3.3.1 - please… womble123, Andrew luecke, RyanE and 2 others 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wnpublic Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 4 minutes ago, South Africa C4 user said: Or start a new thread (which some will read and some won’t)… as the OP, I would like to see this particular thread stick to OS3.3.1 - please… It seemed like the discussion was about 3.3.1, as in "it drops support for a piece of hardware and that has upset some people." Agree that the jailbreaking stuff is a different deal. RyanE 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Africa C4 user Posted October 4, 2022 Author Share Posted October 4, 2022 6 minutes ago, wnpublic said: It seemed like the discussion was about 3.3.1, as in "it drops support for a piece of hardware and that has upset some people." Agree that the jailbreaking stuff is a different deal. My comment relates to Jailbreaking rather than the HC800 being dropped. RyanE 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 10 hours ago, niall said: It's legal to "Jailbreak" your iPhone, Xbox, Playstation, etc etc so it's going to be the same with Control4.https://www.wired.com/2010/07/feds-ok-iphone-jailbreaking/ 9 hours ago, womble123 said: Certainly not illegal. in the US.... many countries have many different versions of DMCA. In some it's plain illegal (under the assumption that you've just breached your contract (accepting those lovely little disclaimers) as required to use the material that states you shall not bypass the copy protection or similar etc, in other's it's illegal only if you do it to make a profit. Just because 'the feds' decided something 12 years ago doesn't mean it'll hold across the world (heck it apparently doesn't mean it holds in their own courts...) womble123 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble123 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Cyknight said: in the US.... many countries have many different versions of DMCA. In some it's plain illegal (under the assumption that you've just breached your contract (accepting those lovely little disclaimers) as required to use the material that states you shall not bypass the copy protection or similar etc, in other's it's illegal only if you do it to make a profit. Just because 'the feds' decided something 12 years ago doesn't mean it'll hold across the world (heck it apparently doesn't mean it holds in their own courts...) Thanks for cleaning that up for me as I didn't know about the US. Basing based in the UK we have free will over ours. I can dig out the material if anyone wants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 1 minute ago, womble123 said: Thanks for cleaning that up for me as I didn't know about the US. Basing based in the UK we have free will over ours. I can dig out the material if anyone wants. UK may be the same, or not quite, as the US. I'm certainly not claiming to know every detail of a single one, let alone multiple. My point is mainly that there are MANY versions, there isn't a true 'universal' one, and people aught to be aware of that, for their own sake. There's a LOT of little details in all of them. Don't know the UK version at all, but I can guarantee that you may be able to 'jailbreak' any hardware device's operating software as such, but that doesn't mean you are just 'free' to load copyrighted content onto that hardware. In other words, you still can't load a cracked PS/Xbox game onto your console, and that's not even looking at whether or not Sony/Microsoft is subsequently allowed to prevent that console from accessing it's own online features (at the least they likely aren't required to allow your jail-broken console OS access to subscribed services (PS plus, xbox live) if it's not updated to the latest version). Muddle it further in that Netflix and similar other paid services may be entitled to block THEIR services on these 'jailbroken' devices (or again, may at least not required to ensure their function on non-offical version of operating systems). The devil is always in the details. One can argue that you can 'jailbreak' your controller, but that does NOT mean you can jailbreak the manufacturer created management software that runs on another device entirely (as in, an outside source could create an alternate program to composer to allow you to manage what's on your controller, but the DMCA may, or may not, cover Composer Pro 'the software'). And back to the copyrighted software...if any an all drivers made by Control4 are copyrighted, even if you can legally jailbreak Composer (and by the above sentence, that isn't as obvious as it's been stated to my mind), can you upload drivers to your system? What if the driver is made by Sony, Yamaha, NAD, or a 3rd party developer? In the end, I'm merely trying to point out here how muddled the wonderful world of copyrighting and law tends to be, it's not a clear cut matter of 'because iPhone can be legally jailbroken' (of course possible voiding warranty and relieving Apple of any responsibility concerning failures, breaches, security issues etc etc caused by that act) meaning 'I can do whatever I want with everything'. It's just not that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble123 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 Quote In other words, you still can't load a cracked PS/Xbox game onto your console, and that's not even looking at whether or not Sony/Microsoft is subsequently allowed to prevent that console from accessing it's own online features (at the least they likely aren't required to allow your jail-broken console OS access to subscribed services (PS plus, xbox live) if it's not updated to the latest version). Muddle it further in that Netflix and similar other paid services may be entitled to block THEIR services on these 'jailbroken' devices (or again, may at least not required to ensure their function on non-offical version of operating systems). The devil is always in the details. I understand what you're saying regarding some of it but when you mention the below are you saying that people are not ok to make backups for personal use if bought? What about all the people who "backup" there films for Plex and the like. Quote And back to the copyrighted software...if any an all drivers made by Control4 are copyrighted, even if you can legally jailbreak Composer (and by the above sentence, that isn't as obvious as it's been stated to my mind), can you upload drivers to your system? What if the driver is made by Sony, Yamaha, NAD, or a 3rd party developer? I have not noticed any copyright on free drivers by LG, Yamaha. Any third party drivers are paid for so it would be fine to use. Lastly, if Control4 etc were so upset about this would they not enforce it already? I have seen zero enforcement in the last 4/5 years since when learnt from scratch with a Ea-1 and SR260. I have had 4Sight for 4+ years, upgraded to a EA-5 (soon to be Core 5)and Triad Matrix & Amp, multiple EA-1's, DS2 etc etc without a hint of a problem. If anything Control4 would be happy with the equipment I have bought and the services used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew luecke Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 This is all off topic... C4 User, msgreenf, RyanE and 2 others 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 On 10/5/2022 at 12:18 AM, womble123 said: not ok to make backups for personal use if bought Yes sure that's the usage I'm talking about On 10/5/2022 at 1:25 AM, Andrew luecke said: This is all off topic... But yes it is, I'll end it here wnpublic and South Africa C4 user 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azkid Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 On 9/30/2022 at 9:55 AM, Andrew luecke said: These disagreements are based on assumption though, not experience with the HC800 software stack. They literally said it's a seperate stack they need to maintain (so isn't straightforward). Take the time you believe it will take to develop, and multiply it by 5. Something this complex won't take a day, it will take significantly longer. Don't forget you're still managing an entire OS and migration process which involves more than simply turning off director. It also must be secure too and they need to migrate the old config, remove the old project, etc. And all of this is done using low level code. And how many major feature improvements are those other companies making to their devices after 10 years? The hue bridge was supported for 8 years, but not much changed with it in that time. This request basically requires a whole new firmware to be made. It always seems to be a quick job. But 90% of the time it isn't. That's composer related, not firmware (different teams most likely anyway). Have you suggested these changes to Control4? Control 4 often relies on feedback for prioritisation of features and if nobody makes the request, they likely won't work on it. What about all the things they have added though? Such as the ability to add c4z files in bulk, colorwheel, new encryption APIs, mobile web interface support, new voice control, the core series (which also seemed to enable a lot of New things which most drivers aren't even using yet), the eq features on the new core, eq support on audio drivers, the ability to hide buttons on certain proxies, etc. In practice, Control4 has improved so quickly in the past year, that driver developers have been struggling to keep up (I've probably personally spent 4-6 months of the past year upgrading drivers to use the new features). I don't think it's fair to pick a few things and say "what about these". Well, what about the things I've mentioned? The new features list I've mentioned affect day to day operation significantly. Shouldn't these be prioritised? Huge changes have been made. Whilst it would be great to get everything done, there are limited development resources and limited hours in the day. In terms of time the reality is folks figured out how to get an HC800 on 3.3.1 in less than 24 hours from the release and to be clear it runs just fine excluding OSD which was already gone. This proves this is a business decision that C4 made its not a technical hurdle. I'm more curious if C4 would be open to allow a 3rd party to create a driver to use a HC800 as IO as was done in the past? This would solve both issues, people would be happy to still use their HC800 and C4 doesn't have to worry about supporting anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 2 minutes ago, azkid said: In terms of time the reality is folks figured out how to get an HC800 on 3.3.1 and it took less than 24 hours from the release of 3.3.1 and to be clear it runs just fine. This proves this is a business decision that C4 made its not a technical hurdle. Who argued that it was anything other than a business decision? Support for an old platform requires resources. Managing resources and attention is well in the purview of the business. I personally think that if a driver was developed to use the 800 as IO, it would probably be blocked. There's no guarantee that the driver would not cause support calls or other issues. The HC800 is not supported in OS 3.3.1+. RyanE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 20 minutes ago, azkid said: not a technical hurdle Yes, it is - no technical hurdle (that) can't be overcome by spending a number of resources...which is where the business decision comes in. No-one's saying it wasn't 'business' - the differentiation is that it's not a 'money grab' by forcing people to upgrade gear (again, you're not forced to update right away at all) for the heck of it - but a decision to not waste limited resources on something that doesn't make sense to keep supporting. RyanE and Neo1738 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAV Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 6 hours ago, azkid said: In terms of time the reality is folks figured out how to get an HC800 on 3.3.1 in less than 24 hours from the release and to be clear it runs just fine excluding OSD which was already gone. This proves this is a business decision that C4 made its not a technical hurdle. I'm more curious if C4 would be open to allow a 3rd party to create a driver to use a HC800 as IO as was done in the past? This would solve both issues, people would be happy to still use their HC800 and C4 doesn't have to worry about supporting anything. 3.30 to 3.31 is a minor software change. As other versions release I would expect “moder’s” efforts to force it along will become harder or impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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