Volume Up Up Up... Boom

[C4 User]

46 minutes ago, brucecampbell said:

One of the selling points for C4 when I bought in 13 years ago was the flexibility to use almost any existing hardware. I'm not one to upgrade, I only replace once it stops working.

13 years ago my theatre volume would spike occasionally. My Yamaha AVR was IR controlled and my speakers were Martin Logan. I never blew the speakers but certainly hurt my ears. Much has changed in 13 years. It sounds like the amp was oversized for the speakers. But after 13 years, you could use an upgrade.

[chopedogg88]

yeah its pretty hard to blow speakers, usually the amp will clip out before that happens

[brucecampbell]

2 hours ago, C4 User said:

13 years ago my theatre volume would spike occasionally. My Yamaha AVR was IR controlled and my speakers were Martin Logan. I never blew the speakers but certainly hurt my ears. Much has changed in 13 years. It sounds like the amp was oversized for the speakers. But after 13 years, you could use an upgrade.

There is that word again... 'Upgrade'

It would be nice, but that costs money....

 

[brucecampbell]

2 hours ago, chopedogg88 said:

yeah its pretty hard to blow speakers, usually the amp will clip out before that happens

The receiver actually went into Protection Mode 

Makes me think the speakers shorted out somehow?

now the speakers sound like only the tweeters are playing music.

 

 

[ChrisHenderson]

4 hours ago, brucecampbell said:

Thanks for your input Andrew.

Yep, sure does suck  
The speakers cost about the same as my insurance excess, so not even worth claiming.

One day I might be in a position to upgrade all my hardware..... I'm running three receivers none of which have IP or serial control - all are IR.
And I'm pretty sure none of them have volume limits available to set either.

One of the selling points for C4 when I bought in 13 years ago was the flexibility to use almost any existing hardware. I'm not one to upgrade, I only replace once it stops working.

I'm sorry to hear that your speakers broke. What brand and model were they and which driver and driver version was it? And Control4 OS version? Were you using the iPhone or Android app when they broke? A touchscreen? Even if it was a 3rd-party driver, it could be nice if we can pin it down and file a bug with the manufacturer.

[alanchow]

49 minutes ago, ChrisHenderson said:

I'm sorry to hear that your speakers broke. What brand and model were they and which driver and driver version was it? And Control4 OS version? Were you using the iPhone or Android app when they broke? A touchscreen? Even if it was a 3rd-party driver, it could be nice if we can pin it down and file a bug with the manufacturer.

Given its worked for such a long period of time its likely the issue was caused by a drop out of communications.

Certain control4 user interfaces sends a START_VOL_UP, STOP_VOL_UP and START_VOL_DOWN, STOP_VOL_DOWN proxy command via director to drivers.  If communications is cut and the STOP_VOL_UP / DOWN command is not issued or received by the device (say due to zigbee or wifi issues - attenuation, interference, range, etc) then the driver will keep ramping forever.  Regardless of who the driver is developed by.  This even happens on drivers built via driver wizard / AVGEN in Control4 composer.

This is the architecture of Control4 and has been the case since 2006 / Control4 OS 1.x

[ChrisHenderson]

11 hours ago, alanchow said:

Given its worked for such a long period of time its likely the issue was caused by a drop out of communications.

Certain control4 user interfaces sends a START_VOL_UP, STOP_VOL_UP and START_VOL_DOWN, STOP_VOL_DOWN proxy command via director to drivers.  If communications is cut and the STOP_VOL_UP / DOWN command is not issued or received by the device (say due to zigbee or wifi issues - attenuation, interference, range, etc) then the driver will keep ramping forever.  Regardless of who the driver is developed by.  This even happens on drivers built via driver wizard / AVGEN in Control4 composer.

This is the architecture of Control4 and has been the case since 2006 / Control4 OS 1.x

Ah, that is unfortunate. I’ll bring this up with my team to see if it’s something we can fix.

[ChrisHenderson]

1 hour ago, ChrisHenderson said:

Ah, that is unfortunate. I’ll bring this up with my team to see if it’s something we can fix.

I just read through this thread again. I see you’re using the iOS app and OS 3.2.2.

I talked with my team about this. The issue where the navigator (i.e., the iOS app in this instance) would send the “start volume up” command and not send the “stop volume up” command was fixed two or three years ago. The app now sends a “start volume up limited” command every 0.5 seconds that doesn’t require a stop command to follow. They’re thinking that it must be either a bug in the driver or C4 system. It is up to the driver to make sure that the volume level isn’t too high for the speaker, so it may be that it isn’t checking properly or the amp is too powerful for the speakers. I’ll take a look at the driver tomorrow and see if anything looks off.

[brucecampbell]

19 hours ago, ChrisHenderson said:

I'm sorry to hear that your speakers broke. What brand and model were they and which driver and driver version was it? And Control4 OS version? Were you using the iPhone or Android app when they broke? A touchscreen? Even if it was a 3rd-party driver, it could be nice if we can pin it down and file a bug with the manufacturer.

Hi Chris,

Receiver is Sony STR-DB930
Speakers are KEF Ventura 6 outdoor
Driver is STR-DB840 (IR)

C4 OS was V3.2.1 I think (have since been updated to 3.2.3)

Was using the App on Iphone.

Cheers.

[brucecampbell]

18 hours ago, alanchow said:

Given its worked for such a long period of time its likely the issue was caused by a drop out of communications.

Certain control4 user interfaces sends a START_VOL_UP, STOP_VOL_UP and START_VOL_DOWN, STOP_VOL_DOWN proxy command via director to drivers.  If communications is cut and the STOP_VOL_UP / DOWN command is not issued or received by the device (say due to zigbee or wifi issues - attenuation, interference, range, etc) then the driver will keep ramping forever.  Regardless of who the driver is developed by.  This even happens on drivers built via driver wizard / AVGEN in Control4 composer.

This is the architecture of Control4 and has been the case since 2006 / Control4 OS 1.x

Thanks Alan,

I would have expected a comms issue causing this fault to be a one off?
But after realising something was wrong via distorted music, I turned the zone off, on twice.
Closed the app and opened again, turned the zone on for maybe a fourth time.
Finally went to the rack to see the ir bud flashing with the amp in protection mode.

turned everything off again.

Rebooted the controllers

Tried again and still the same problem.

It wasn't until after restoring the project that the issue went away.
I'm not sure if restoring fixed it or was a coincidence, but I'm not convinced a comms/network cut could be blamed here...

But then again, I have no idea how a driver would corrupt and cause this...?

Cheers.

 

[ChrisHenderson]

On 10/11/2022 at 3:52 PM, brucecampbell said:

Thanks Alan,

I would have expected a comms issue causing this fault to be a one off?
But after realising something was wrong via distorted music, I turned the zone off, on twice.
Closed the app and opened again, turned the zone on for maybe a fourth time.
Finally went to the rack to see the ir bud flashing with the amp in protection mode.

turned everything off again.

Rebooted the controllers

Tried again and still the same problem.

It wasn't until after restoring the project that the issue went away.
I'm not sure if restoring fixed it or was a coincidence, but I'm not convinced a comms/network cut could be blamed here...

But then again, I have no idea how a driver would corrupt and cause this...?

Cheers.

 

I chatted with my manager about this issue and he says it could also be a configuration issue. Could you have your dealer verify your settings, such as gain, etc.? If set up properly, setting the volume to a level high enough to break the speakers should not be possible. He says that, ideally, speakers should be configured to only allow, for example, 0-30% volume, to prevent setting the volume to levels that are too loud.

I'll take a look at that driver to see if I can see anything.

[ChrisHenderson]

I can't see anything in the driver that looks off to me, but I'm not an IR driver expert. I'll ask if someone else here at Control4 can take a look. In the meantime, if we can get limits established so that nothing will break again, I think that's our #1 priority. After that, if the system gets in this state where it's sending "volume up" over and over again, it'd be super helpful if we could get a controller snapshot while the problem is happening. Then we'll be able to tell if it's the driver or not. You can create a controller snapshot with Composer Express, which is available on the App Store/Play Store.

Ideally, your dealer would look into this. It's possible he's had other projects with the same problem or might know what's going on.

[brucecampbell]

On 10/14/2022 at 3:28 PM, ChrisHenderson said:

I can't see anything in the driver that looks off to me, but I'm not an IR driver expert. I'll ask if someone else here at Control4 can take a look. In the meantime, if we can get limits established so that nothing will break again, I think that's our #1 priority. After that, if the system gets in this state where it's sending "volume up" over and over again, it'd be super helpful if we could get a controller snapshot while the problem is happening. Then we'll be able to tell if it's the driver or not. You can create a controller snapshot with Composer Express, which is available on the App Store/Play Store.

Ideally, your dealer would look into this. It's possible he's had other projects with the same problem or might know what's going on.

Hi Chris,

I've just hooked up another pair of KEF Ventura 6 outdoor speakers.

Just wondering if there is any way to find out if the driver I have uses the START_VOL_UP, STOP_VOL_UP which @alanchow mentioned?

I don't recall if the driver worked perfectly when added to my project, so I'm not sure if we edited it at all with the driver wizard. (perhaps 'User Edited' means we did??)

Thanks.

[alanchow]

37 minutes ago, brucecampbell said:

Hi Chris,

I've just hooked up another pair of KEF Ventura 6 outdoor speakers.

Just wondering if there is any way to find out if the driver I have uses the START_VOL_UP, STOP_VOL_UP which @alanchow mentioned?

I don't recall if the driver worked perfectly when added to my project, so I'm not sure if we edited it at all with the driver wizard. (perhaps 'User Edited' means we did??)

Thanks.

All drivers use START_VOL_UP and STOP_VOL_UP.  Its just the way the architecture works.

If you are concerned purchase a AVR that has discrete volume control or set the volume limit on your AVR.  Your AVR should have a setting for maximum volume levels.  That way you won't blow your speakers.

[brucecampbell]

19 hours ago, alanchow said:

Your AVR should have a setting for maximum volume levels.  That way you won't blow your speakers.

Thanks Alan,

I've looked in the setup guide and had a play with the AVR, I can't see any max volume option for this receiver, in fact it says: 

The speaker are:
A = Cerwin Vega E712 (8 ohms)

B = KEF Venture 6 outdoor  (6 ohms)

With this statement, I believe the receiver should be set to 4 Ohms: