Network Connectivity Issues with NEEO Remtoe

[Cyknight]

2 hours ago, PumpUpVolume said:

In case anyone doubts my assertion that LAN communications between the NEEO and the C4 EA3 processor are "routed" via my switch - without passing through the gateway/router - consider this...

As a test, to demonstrate the independence of the NEEO <--> C4-EA3 communications, I temporarily disconnected the Cat6 ethernet cable that connects my Netgear POE+ switch to my ISP supplied router/gateway. Once the home network was fully disconnected from the ISP router/gateway, I then tried using the NEEO to operate the home theatre system controlled by the EA3 and the NEEO was able to control the home theatre system just as it normally does (when it is working). Of course, I temporarily lost access to IP content (e.g. the Apple TV lost access to content because it depends on an ethernet connection to the router/gateway), but system control functioned normally. This works because the NEEO <--> C4-EA3 communications are on an L2 level and are handled exclusively by the switch, without passing through the router/gateway. Of course, for any process that the NEEO actually needs an internet (WAN) connection, such as a firmware update, the router/gateway would come into play. Normal use of the NEEO (as a remote control) does not send network traffic through the router - if you have the network configuration that I have.

Sigh. Sorry but:

Yes as long as the DHCP lease remains, devices will continue to operate for some time. It would do this on a true dumb switch as well. This has nothing to do with your switch being a managed L2.

Also note that the switch model you provided doesn't do L3 at all, just L2 (and L3 is required for the switch to handle active routing)

Just because an active route remains active for a bit when you disconnect a router, doesn't mean that your switch is routing.

That does not mean your router doesn't influence your LAN traffic. Your router still manages DHCP handouts, lease times, drops and more.

 

Now, I'm NOT saying your issues with the remote are due to your router - but don't think having a bad choice for a router isn't going to affect your local LAN. ISP routers are notorious for not handling consecutive connections, and randomly dropping routes and leases.

 

Simply put - you SHOULD add in a proper router and not rely on your ISP Bell piece for your system. If your Neeo issues are actually related or not doesn't even really matter: the Bell router needs to be eliminated as a possible source.

Again, I'm not claiming the bell piece IS your current issue/cause: but you're now arguing that your setup is peachy, when you clearly have a known problem piece in your setup.

 

[PumpUpVolume]

2 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

Sigh. Sorry but:

Yes as long as the DHCP lease remains, devices will continue to operate for some time. It would do this on a true dumb switch as well. This has nothing to do with your switch being a managed L2.

Also note that the switch model you provided doesn't do L3 at all, just L2 (and L3 is required for the switch to handle active routing)

Just because an active route remains active for a bit when you disconnect a router, doesn't mean that your switch is routing.

That does not mean your router doesn't influence your LAN traffic. Your router still manages DHCP handouts, lease times, drops and more.

 

Now, I'm NOT saying your issues with the remote are due to your router - but don't think having a bad choice for a router isn't going to affect your local LAN. ISP routers are notorious for not handling consecutive connections, and randomly dropping routes and leases.

 

Simply put - you SHOULD add in a proper router and not rely on your ISP Bell piece for your system. If your Neeo issues are actually related or not doesn't even really matter: the Bell router needs to be eliminated as a possible source.

Again, I'm not claiming the bell piece IS your current issue/cause: but you're now arguing that your setup is peachy, when you clearly have a known problem piece in your setup.

 

I understand the lease considerations, etc. I also know that an unmanaged switch would work the same. I use my switch - mostly - in an unmanaged way.

FWIW, my switch does have the following limited L3 feature set (none of which are relevant to the NEEO issue - and I'm only using the DHCP client feature):

• L3 Services - DHCP • DHCP Client • DHCP Snooping
• L3 Services - IPv4 Routing • Static Routing • VLAN Routing

I don't use most of the features of my switch - I chose this switch a decade ago because of the number of ports, the lifetime warranty, the support terms, and the POE capabilities. It had the right features at the right price with a great warranty and support - and it has served me well.

The point that I was making is that the router has little to do with most traffic between the NEEO and the EA3. I think - hope - we can agree on that. As noted, I encounter problems only when switching rooms on the NEEO. That is too much of a coincidence that it caused by the router, which is largely uninvolved. Furthermore, I have done a lot of analysis that I haven't documented here, like looking at lease renewals, error logs, etc. None of the clues point to the router. All clues point to some interaction between the access point and the NEEO. Also, several other users have had the same symptoms and some of solved the problem by switching access points.

One set of "clues" is the following: when the NEEO locks up, the problem can be (temporarily) resolve by rebooting the WiFi access Point OR rebooting the NEEO; conversely, rebooting the router or the switch does not resolve the NEEO issue; the NEEO will remain in a locked state until either the NEEO or the access point is rebooted. There are several other clues that I have observed over the year that I've been dealing with this problem. I've also verified that the NEEO lease is still current when it locks up, etc. I've also done various ping tests, etc.

Adding another router is not only a red herring, it introduces other potential issues in my case. If I were to implement another router, it would have to be a double NAT implementation for reasons explained earlier in this thread - and I want to avoid double NAT. And, yes, I've explored the DMZ approach and there are problems with that approach with this particular gateway. The Home Hub 3000 is also what provides my TV service, which is an added complication to another router. If I thought for fleeting moment that adding a router would solve the problem and not cause other problems, I'd spend the money and time. I don't believe adding a router would solve the NEEO issues.

I have every reason to believe that my issues with the NEEO are either (i) specific to the series of WiFi chip in my NEEO (discussed earlier in this thread); (ii) an incompatibility between my WiFi access point and the NEEO (I suspect it could be related to security protocols); or (iii) some issue with the C4 programming that makes room switches problematic.

I have 20-30 devices (covering a wide range of devices, manufacturers, bands, speeds, etc) that work fine on my network; only one device - the NEEO - has given me no end of issues.

Is it absolutely impossible the router is playing a role? It is possible, but on a likelihood scale, I judge it to be highly unlikely given all that we know about the issues.

I have already made arrangements to upgrade to Halo Touch when it becomes available in my area and I expect that the issues will go away with that upgrade. I'm also planning to upgrade my access point, but I may wait a while yet simply because some of the new access points I prefer are not presently available due to supply chain issues and evolving standards. I'm not clinging to my equipment - I'm due for an upgrade to the access point.

[PumpUpVolume]

In the interest of keeping an open mind and thinking with an engineer's curiosity... if anyone can provide instructions or a link to instructions to using a self-provided router with the Bell MTS Home Hub 3000 without using double-NAT, I will pick up a basic Edge router and give it a try. Note, however, before you send me links to the popular posts on this topic, beware that there are a couple of key differences between the "Bell Home Hub 3000" and the "Bell MTS Home Hub 3000" which renders all of the instructions I've found useless for my hardware. Every discussion of this topic that I've found online applies to the Bell HH3000 and not the Bell MTS HH3000. The "Bell Home Hub 3000" does not use an ONT, but does use a SFP adapter. The "Bell MTS Home Hub 3000" does use a ONT and does not use a SFP adapter. The other key difference is Bell will provide customers with their B1 account information; Bell MTS will not provide the equivalent. So, again, the instructions to bypass the Bell HH300 are not applicable to the Bell MTS HH3000. The moment you see a reference to a SFP adapter or B1 account, understand that the information doesn't pertain to Bell MTS. I pursued this matter in detail some months ago, but didn't want double-NAT and I couldn't get Bell MTS to provide me with the login credentials and I eventually flew a white flag on this pursuit. Also, I need to keep the Bell MTS HH3000 in play because it provides my TV service. I'm not sure, but I suspect the connection between the Aliant ONT and the Bell MTS HH3000 is proprietary. Thus, unless anyone has any brilliant insight into this situation, the only option to use one's own router with Bell MTS is to accept a double-NAT configuration. I'm entirely open to learning that I'm wrong about any of this, but do keep in mind that Bell MTS will not give out login credentials for fibre customers.

[PumpUpVolume]

I've been intending to add this to the thread for a while... while this thread's discussion is focused on networking related issues with the NEEO, I think it is important to note that our NEEO sometimes spontaneously crashes and self-initiates a reboot cycle; like with the apparent networking issues, this always happens when we are initiating a Room Change on the NEEO. This does cause me to wonder whether it is a networking issue at or is it some issue with handling the room change that often manifests as a networking issue? What makes this tricky to pursue, isolate and diagnose is that happens intermittently. We can successfully navigate many room changes after a reboot, until, whamo, the next room change either throws a networking error or it crashes the remote and self-initiates a reboot. This also causes me to wonder whether there is aspect of how my dealer has programmed the rooms that is actually causing the issues. I know for a fact that my dealer has sold very few NEEOs and my C4 project manager has only ever sold one NEEO - to me. Maybe there is something my dealer doesn't know about programming for the NEEO?

Bottom line is that I really don't know the cause of the problem. Again, I'm waiting for the Halo Touch to be released and I'll do an upgrade with the hope that solves the problem. I do plan to upgrade aspects of my network also, but the timing of that may be determined by supply chain issues as some of the equipment that is of interest to me is simply not available at present.

[Topspin14m]

Unfortunately, I think the solution is to buy a Halo. I have Neeos and experience all the same issues you do. No issues with my Halos.

I don’t think any of us can fix the Neeo ourselves. It’s a flawed product. At least one of mine crashes basically every day. It just stinks, but I’m not an engineer who will take it apart and install a new chipset.

If you don’t absolutely need touch, get the new Halo now. It’s way better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PumpUpVolume]

8 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

Unfortunately, I think the solution is to buy a Halo. I have Neeos and experience all the same issues you do. No issues with my Halos.

I don’t think any of us can fix the Neeo ourselves. It’s a flawed product. At least one of mine crashes basically every day. It just stinks, but I’m not an engineer who will take it apart and install a new chipset.

If you don’t absolutely need touch, get the new Halo now. It’s way better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you kindly for sharing that perspective. It boosts my confidence in deferring my network upgrade investments until I can implement the Halo Touch upgrade and see whether that alone solves the control issues.

I know there are others on this forum that see this the other way - I should upgrade my router, switch, and access point first. While I am committed to an upgrade in the foreseeable future, I don't agree that those upgrades should revolve around the NEEO. I don't have any network issues with any other device, so I'd like to do the upgrade to take advantage of new technologies, features, and benefits, not to try to create some sort of bubble wrapped ecosystem that might enable a NEEO to work continuously for a week.

And, FWIW, I am an engineer, I have worked in the custom electronic devices industry, and I'm well acquainted with PCB assembly/manufacturing... and, I wouldn't begin to entertain attempting to fix the NEEO myself. Upgrading to the Halo is going to be faster, cheaper, and also provide better functionality beyond simply solving the networking, crash, reboot problems.

It's just difficult to be patient while waiting indefinitely for the Halo Touch to arrive. I am going to wait for the touch, however... I'll have the new remote for years, I expect; waiting a few more months for the Touch to be released isn't the end of the world. Everyone in my family is now proficient with rebooting the NEEO... we can hang in here for a while longer - it's a first world problem....

Again, thanks for taking the time to share your experience with both the NEEO and the Halo!

[Topspin14m]

I upgraded all my networking equipment and had the same issues before and after. I have the latest and greatest Unifi enterprise grade Wi-Fi 6e setup with APs in every room with a Neeo. I’ve tried all the recommended fixes.

I assure you, there is no fixing the Neeo. Maybe some folks experience fewer problems because they have a version with a different chipset or they have fewer devices on their network or something like that. But I highly doubt there is a magic bullet here. It’s a flawed device - C4 won’t admit that because they’d have to recall it. Dealers are in a crappy position because they sold them. It just is what it is.

0 problems with the Halo. It just works.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BY96]

As I posted previously, I actually moved my NEEO from my "expensive" AP (probably still cheaper than what most people here use) to a "cheap" AP I added just for the NEEO, and have had zero problems. It is one of only two devices on the new AP, so maybe the NEEO just doesn't like to share. In any case, I seriously doubt upgrading one's network guarantees the NEEO will work. When my Halo Touch arrives, I will be moving the NEEO to my bedroom and will just hope I can find a way for it to work back there. 

[msgreenf]

Don't conflate expensive with quality 

[PumpUpVolume]

29 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

I upgraded all my networking equipment and had the same issues before and after. I have the latest and greatest Unifi enterprise grade Wi-Fi 6e setup with APs in every room with a Neeo. I’ve tried all the recommended fixes.

I assure you, there is no fixing the Neeo. Maybe some folks experience fewer problems because they have a version with a different chipset or they have fewer devices on their network or something like that. But I highly doubt there is a magic bullet here. It’s a flawed device - C4 won’t admit that because they’d have to recall it. Dealers are in a crappy position because they sold them. It just is what it is.

0 problems with the Halo. It just works.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The first and last sentences in the quoted post are - combined - the most valuable comments (for me) out of everything that has been said, shared, and recommended in this entire thread. Thank you again for sharing!

[thecodingart]

On 4/12/2023 at 11:51 AM, BY96 said:

As I posted previously, I actually moved my NEEO from my "expensive" AP (probably still cheaper than what most people here use) to a "cheap" AP I added just for the NEEO, and have had zero problems. It is one of only two devices on the new AP, so maybe the NEEO just doesn't like to share. In any case, I seriously doubt upgrading one's network guarantees the NEEO will work. When my Halo Touch arrives, I will be moving the NEEO to my bedroom and will just hope I can find a way for it to work back there. 

When are the Halo Touches planned to release? I’m tempted to sell my fairly new Neeo remotes and just replace them with a Touch.

[PumpUpVolume]

29 minutes ago, thecodingart said:

When are the Halo Touches planned to release? I’m tempted to sell my fairly new Neeo remotes and just replace them with a Touch.

The Halo Touch was supposed to be released in Q4 2022... now that is well passed, it would be appreciated if an updated release date could be provided....

[msgreenf]

Q2 23

[PumpUpVolume]

11 hours ago, msgreenf said:

Q2 23

Q2 23 runs now through end of June (as only as you are referencing calendar quarters) a couple weeks ago... so we can expect the Halo touch to be available from dealers before end of June?

[msgreenf]

32 minutes ago, PumpUpVolume said:

Q2 23 runs now through end of June (as only as you are referencing calendar quarters) a couple weeks ago... so we can expect the Halo touch to be available from dealers before end of June?

That is the latest information I have, yes.

[PumpUpVolume]

On 4/17/2023 at 8:41 AM, msgreenf said:

That is the latest information I have, yes.

We are approaching the end of Q2 2023. Any update on when the Halo Touch will actually be available?

[msgreenf]

2 minutes ago, PumpUpVolume said:

We are approaching the end of Q2 2023. Any update on when the Halo Touch will actually be available?

No updates 

[Cyknight]

Remtoe is still oddly funny though.

[NYInstallers]

Just wanted to add my findings on this.  I know it’s an old post but for those having issues here’s the end result.  
 

os 3.33

Araknis 310 for MoIP

Araknjs 310 for Wi-Fi, Zibee Controlers and doorbells 

Araknis 210 x 2 for general network 

EdgeRouter 

No special configs on routers or switches (aside from MoIP switch)

Ubiquiti UAP-AC-HD Access Points 

we had the same issues mentioned in these post originally  we went down all the rabbit holes mentioned and we were just chasing a ghost   Turned out we had a network issues related to a configuration on the Moip side   Once fixed everything works perfectly   
 

The Access points are configured on high power for 2.4 and medium for 5ghz   
 

smoothly operating   

Any questions I’m happy to help if I can   

 

[PumpUpVolume]

2 hours ago, NYInstallers said:

Just wanted to add my findings on this.  I know it’s an old post but for those having issues here’s the end result.  
 

os 3.33

Araknis 310 for MoIP

Araknjs 310 for Wi-Fi, Zibee Controlers and doorbells 

Araknis 210 x 2 for general network 

EdgeRouter 

No special configs on routers or switches (aside from MoIP switch)

Ubiquiti UAP-AC-HD Access Points 

we had the same issues mentioned in these post originally  we went down all the rabbit holes mentioned and we were just chasing a ghost   Turned out we had a network issues related to a configuration on the Moip side   Once fixed everything works perfectly   
 

The Access points are configured on high power for 2.4 and medium for 5ghz   
 

smoothly operating   

Any questions I’m happy to help if I can   

 

Are you suggesting that - in the case of someone who has a single access point, single router, and single switch with no MoIP (video transport is point to point hybrid optical HDMI - no distribution) in the house - that there is some configuration setting that hasn't already been discussed ad nauseum here?

I'm glad that a MoIP setting resolved your issues, but mine persist in MoIP free environment.

... I'm continuing to wait for the Halo Touch to be released, hoping that is a solution.

[PumpUpVolume]

Now that we are solidly into Q3 2023, is there an update on the pre-order/release date for the Halo Touch?

[NYInstallers]

On 7/10/2023 at 9:34 PM, PumpUpVolume said:

Now that we are solidly into Q3 2023, is there an update on the pre-order/release date for the Halo Touch?

I got my halo touch.   
 

I am willing to bet though that you will experience the same or other issues you did with the NEEO. There is definitely some underlying issue causing this and it won’t end until you sort that out   I realize you’ve very well documented everything above, if you’ve swapped out neeos and still have the issue then it’s definitely networking. I hope that I’m wrong though   C4 is amazing but when something like that doesn’t work it really ruins the experience  

regarding the halo touch I’m going to post some items about it.  In another post. 

[PumpUpVolume]

1 hour ago, NYInstallers said:

I got my halo touch.   
 

I am willing to bet though that you will experience the same or other issues you did with the NEEO. There is definitely some underlying issue causing this and it won’t end until you sort that out   I realize you’ve very well documented everything above, if you’ve swapped out neeos and still have the issue then it’s definitely networking. I hope that I’m wrong though   C4 is amazing but when something like that doesn’t work it really ruins the experience  

regarding the halo touch I’m going to post some items about it.  In another post. 

One additional data point that I haven't mentioned previously is that controlling my C4 system from my iPhone works flawlessly - there are none of the issues I experience with the NEEO. It is fast, responsive, and reliable. ...just like all the other non-NEEO devices on my network.

I would welcome an explanation as to how the problems with the NEEO could be the fault of my network if all the same control functionality works perfectly fine via the iPhone, which is communicating over the same WiFi network as the NEEO. I can't recall ever encountering a single glitch with controlling the system via the iPhone over WiFi, yet the NEEO is train wreck.

Edited August 2, 2023 by PumpUpVolume
addition of example

[RyanE]

1 hour ago, PumpUpVolume said:

... I would welcome an explanation as to how the problems with the NEEO could be the fault of my network if all the same control functionality works perfectly fine via the iPhone ...

For starters, the Neeo uses a completely different Wifi chipset than your phone, a completely different OS, a completely different Wifi antenna setup, etc.

You're literally asking why apples are not oranges.

Certain network setups work very well with the Neeo, and don't experience issues.  Others, not so much, unfortunately.  

I'm sorry you're having issues with your Neeo, but network performance is dependent on a lot of things, most of which are different between your Neeo and any other Wifi hardware.

RyanE

[PumpUpVolume]

15 minutes ago, RyanE said:

For starters, the Neeo uses a completely different Wifi chipset than your phone, a completely different OS, a completely different Wifi antenna setup, etc.

You're literally asking why apples are not oranges.

Certain network setups work very well with the Neeo, and don't experience issues.  Others, not so much, unfortunately.  

I'm sorry you're having issues with your Neeo, but network performance is dependent on a lot of things, most of which are different between your Neeo and any other Wifi hardware.

RyanE

Precisely - the problem is unique to the relationship between the NEEO and the network. Thank you for making my point. My question was entirely sarcastic - the difference is the point. The network works fine for 20 devices and the NEEO is a train wreck. I'm hoping that the Halo Touch has a much better WiFi chip than the NEEO and that is the end of my issues.

Oh, and it isn't a setup/configuration issue - I've tried every possible configuration change. It may be hardware incompatibility... or it may be a C4 programming issue... but, my dealer has sold a total of one NEEO and I think it is entirely possible that there is a programming issue. But, both the dealer and C4 support have blamed the customer network without any analysis or troubleshooting.

I won't really know until I can get a Halo Touch. When get I get my pre-order for the Halo Touch placed? I can't seem to get an answer to that question.