So now that Control4 end users are allowed to add Halo remotes to their system...

[zaphod]

Is C4 going to open up and allow end users to start adding more hardware?

Is this an admission that being reliant on dealers to add any little thing to the system is a hindrance for some users?

Can we add SR-260s or other remotes to the system?  If not, why not? Is there a technical limitation?

What other hardware should we be able to add?   Presumably if there are other devices that don't need connections we should be able to add those as well, shouldn't we?

[dinom]

The NEEO can also be added by the end user. 

[msgreenf]

The difference is ZigBee vs wifi. And specialized setup built for neeo and extended for Halo. 

[wnpublic]

answer is clearly "no."

[Double D]

Most any additions to C4 need some programming. Adding WiFi remotes to an existing system that is already programmed does not any programming, at least to do the basics. This allows C4 dealers to drop off/ship remotes straight through the job site and just about anyone will be able to add it in. This helps dealers and end users on a product that MANY will likely upgrade to. 
 

This is meant to be an upgrade, not an addition. And there will still be programming in the system needed to do more advanced functions like voice control.

C4 is not a DIY system. It is for clients who aren’t able or don’t want to automate their own system, often providing more advanced features/quality. 

[Andrew luecke]

DELETED

[Andrew luecke]

As others have said, Neeo has always been able to be able to be set up by end users (installers can lock the system however to prevent end users adding them, but nobody does)

It could be compared to allowing end users to add their own mobile phones to the system. As Mitch mentioned too, Sr260 is a bit different and needed Zigbee.

It's a bit more complicated than being able to simply add drivers too.

• Lets say a user adds a driver which causes the controller to crash? Suddenly, they also need the ability to remove drivers too and to access lower level parts of the controller.. Which also means they could remove drivers which are critical accidentally.
• It also means that if the driver is doing dodgy things (like the ping driver), who supports users who install their own drivers? Does SnapAV take responsibility? Or is it the dealer? What if they don't have a dealer?
• An installer maintaining the system has no way of relying on the setup of the system being reliable. Which means even minor issues may require a call-out.
• Technical support for 3rd party drivers also becomes less efficient, so costs of drivers will likely skyrocket, and support for certified installers would also suffer. Installers are given proper training which helps bypass a lot of support issues (and ensures bug reports are fairly succinct).

 

Systems like Control4 are designed to be both powerful, and quick to deploy by trained installers. Dealer managed systems aren't for everyone, but in my opinion, work well for the jobs they're designed for. There's a lot of possible flow on effects though with opening any part of the system, which would completely change the audience it is suitable for (for better and worse). Opening things up as an example could open it up to a range of new users, but it could also lose the existing ones because of other side effects. In my opinion, its not really designed as a DIY system

[RyanE]

Not an official company response, but I'd say in general, this is most likely not a change in policy.

As others have mentioned, the Neeo could also be added without the participation of a Control4 partner.

RyanE

[zaphod]

What's the difference between adding a Zigbee remote vs a Wifi remote?  Isn't the only difference that you have to pick a ZAP when adding a Zigbee device?  It's not like that is rocket science.

[Neo1738]

I do think for SR260 you could allow HE people to add only certain drivers that are C4 approved and won't crash system. If a C4 driver is crashing someone's controller.......well let's just say C4 would have much much bigger issues. Maybe allowing people to add C4 made drivers would be a good 1st place to start. 

[RyanE]

1 hour ago, zaphod said:

What's the difference between adding a Zigbee remote vs a Wifi remote?  Isn't the only difference that you have to pick a ZAP when adding a Zigbee device?  It's not like that is rocket science.

It certainly would be possible, and in some ways it would be easier if it were done from the app, like the Halos do.  Add SR-260 Remote, Pick Room, (Zigbee joining is enabled), Press 4 button 4 times, done.  The real problem is that there isn't a way to do it without doing it through the app or through a Control4 navigator.  Both the Neeo and the Halo provide a 'manual mode', where the remote can be added to the system without needing an app.  Zigbee remotes would need a way to tell the system to enable joining on the Zigbee network, as devices can't join unless the join process is enabled.

That said, the SR-260 came out in 2014 (and was a refresh of the 2008 SR-250), which is forever ago, when that was not as much the focus.

Also, remotes are a pretty common 'consumable' item, which need replacement much more often than most other components of a home automation install, and for most dealers, adding a single remote is a time-wasting truck roll, which is why it's more applicable to end user install over other products.

RyanE

[Neo1738]

On 2/5/2023 at 2:03 PM, RyanE said:

It certainly would be possible, and in some ways it would be easier if it were done from the app, like the Halos do.  Add SR-260 Remote, Pick Room, (Zigbee joining is enabled), Press 4 button 4 times, done.  The real problem is that there isn't a way to do it without doing it through the app or through a Control4 navigator.  Both the Neeo and the Halo provide a 'manual mode', where the remote can be added to the system without needing an app.  Zigbee remotes would need a way to tell the system to enable joining on the Zigbee network, as devices can't join unless the join process is enabled.

That said, the SR-260 came out in 2014 (and was a refresh of the 2008 SR-250), which is forever ago, when that was not as much the focus.

Also, remotes are a pretty common 'consumable' item, which need replacement much more often than most other components of a home automation install, and for most dealers, adding a single remote is a time-wasting truck roll, which is why it's more applicable to end user install over other products.

RyanE

I would disagree that remotes are "consumable" devices. They should last 10-15 years without serious malfunction. Basic TV remotes have been working for longer than that. Now ones with built in batteries might need battery replacement but the remote itself shouldn't need replaced unless you want to replace it. 

[msgreenf]

1 minute ago, Neo1738 said:

I would disagree that remotes are "consumable" devices. They should last 10-15 years without serious malfunction. Basic TV remotes have been working for longer than that. Now ones with built in batteries might need battery replacement but the remote itself shouldn't need replaced unless you want to replace it. 

clearly you don't have young kids...haha...

I don't agree with either of you...not really consumable but not really 10 years...

[RyanE]

36 minutes ago, Neo1738 said:

I would disagree that remotes are "consumable" devices. They should last 10-15 years without serious malfunction. Basic TV remotes have been working for longer than that. Now ones with built in batteries might need battery replacement but the remote itself shouldn't need replaced unless you want to replace it. 

Dogs don't chew and kids don't drop on concrete floors in-wall touchpanels, CORE5 controllers or 8x8 audio matrix switches.

I've cut remotes in half by having them drop down into the recliner, and un-reclining to get a better look.  I've heard of others dropping remotes into their beer or water.

That's what I mean by consumable.  They can and should be hardy and stand up to some abuse, but they get more abuse than anything else in the system, and are more likely to have a homeowner need to replace them and/or add new ones as time goes by.

RyanE

[Cyknight]

On 2/4/2023 at 5:04 PM, Andrew luecke said:

(installers can lock the system however to prevent end users adding them, but nobody does)

Well....we've done it for some commercial systems (not to stop the client, but to prevent the possibility of someone walking up with a remote and starting to control the system - AV and lights...well but once shutters and security gets involved....)

[Neo1738]

41 minutes ago, RyanE said:

Dogs don't chew and kids don't drop on concrete floors in-wall touchpanels, CORE5 controllers or 8x8 audio matrix switches.

I've cut remotes in half by having them drop down into the recliner, and un-reclining to get a better look.  I've heard of others dropping remotes into their beer or water.

That's what I mean by consumable.  They can and should be hardy and stand up to some abuse, but they get more abuse than anything else in the system, and are more likely to have a homeowner need to replace them and/or add new ones as time goes by.

RyanE

That makes much more sense. Guess I just take better care of my stuff than most  

[c44me]

3 hours ago, RyanE said:

Dogs don't chew and kids don't drop on concrete floors in-wall touchpanels, CORE5 controllers or 8x8 audio matrix switches.

I've cut remotes in half by having them drop down into the recliner, and un-reclining to get a better look.  I've heard of others dropping remotes into their beer or water.

That's what I mean by consumable.  They can and should be hardy and stand up to some abuse, but they get more abuse than anything else in the system, and are more likely to have a homeowner need to replace them and/or add new ones as time goes by.

RyanE

My HTC's and the ones under your feet are quite clearly 'consumable'

[RyanE]

31 minutes ago, c44me said:

My HTC's and the ones under your feet are quite clearly 'consumable'

LOL.  I only have the outside shell of two HC300's under my feet...

That's equivalent to an HC600!!!

RyanE

[WisC4]

4 hours ago, msgreenf said:

clearly you don't have young kids...haha...

I don't agree with either of you...not really consumable but not really 10 years...

I have (3) SR-260s each about 5 years old.  #1 doesn't have a functioning screen - at all #2 the battery doesn't last more than 5 minutes off the charger #3 has been kid beat up and dropped and is cracked in about 7 places.  Definitely consumed products over here, but I wish I got longer on the two non kid related ones...

[South Africa C4 user]

I have 5 or 6 SR250s - all of them have gone through 2 or 3 houses (depending whether they are in my main residence or were relocated to my Beach House) and must date back 15 plus years. I have 3 or 4 SR260’s that were bought when the product was launched (can’t recall when that was but must be 5 or 6 years ago?).  All of them are still working perfectly. A couple look a little worse for wear.  The only real issue was the dimming of the screen on 2 of the SR260’s (they got relegated to theatre rooms which are dark anyway).  All 9 or 10 remotes have gone through babies, toddlers and teenagers (who did the most damage) and survived.  I also have 2 Neeos but they are relatively new…

[Cyknight]

The SR250's (and the SR150's) are undoubtedly robust in their build as far as any 'rough handling' is concerned and the SR260's are not much worse (1gen screen aside) - but I do agree that they ought to be viewed as a more 'consumable' item in the way Ryan described it.

 

17 hours ago, WisC4 said:

#2 the battery doesn't last more than 5 minutes off the charger

Make sure that under settings it's in fact set to rechargeable. If it is...well you could get a replacement battery

[Amr]

21 hours ago, Neo1738 said:

I would disagree that remotes are "consumable" devices. They should last 10-15 years without serious malfunction. Basic TV remotes have been working for longer than that. Now ones with built in batteries might need battery replacement but the remote itself shouldn't need replaced unless you want to replace it. 

Nothing lasts 10 years, that’s incredible age to a TV not to mention LED that have leaps in technology every couple of years

[Amr]

No fence to any one and holding a huge piece of wood when saying that, my RS-250’s are 7 years old and still going, these are totally different than LED remotes or any other consumable remotes …

[RyanE]

3 minutes ago, Amr said:

No fence to any one and holding a huge piece of wood when saying that, my RS-250’s are 7 years old and still going, these are totally different than LED remotes or any other consumable remotes …

True, the SR-250s are about as close to an indestructible remote as you can make, and still have it functional.

I still have a few of them, and they just chug along.  I've lost one or two due to batteries corroding after forgetting them somewhere for a long time, and I heard reports that a capacitor could get knocked free if it was dropped 'just right', but they were (and are) pretty solid.

The product manager at the time was known to take a SR-250 and throw it against walls and the ground during alpha testing.

RyanE

[Cyknight]

31 minutes ago, RyanE said:

The product manager at the time was known to take a SR-250 and throw it against walls and the ground during alpha testing.

Ah, but was that out of frustration with the software engineer?