trdrscott Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 I get the distinct impression that C4 does NOT want homeowners to be able to program their system independent of their dealers. Why?How about the lack of a comprehensive user manual for Composer HEAccess to better reference material SUPPLIED by C4 detailing the the different setup options in the pulldown menus as you go thru the script writing processExplanation of error messages received while using HEThe need for homeowners to rely on other homeowners for advice via a forumThe lack of a section in Composer HE that lists every script written, so you can view how you setup your systemThe ability to "copy and paste" scripts I can go on and on, but here is a perfect little example:the difference between "send URL get" and "send command get_image and get_mjpeg". There is no index that defines these commands and explains not only how to use them, but provides examples of the end result.Good luck getting the answer to that without posting something on this forum. It simply should NOT be this difficult for users to write scripts etc without the help of other users unless C$ wants it this way to force us to ask for dealer help - and they don't do it for free....Am I missing something here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 You can copy and paste scripts, there is a help file, you can view every script written with the online reports tool, how is a forum a detriment?I think you're missing a lot, Composer HE is a great tool. Also, what error messages are you getting? I have been using Control4 for 5 years and cannot recall ever getting one error message in Composer.You need to chill out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 I should also add that Composer HE is a fairly new thing (the last 18 months or so) and was made due to "popular demand" so that homeowners could do some tweaking themselves.If you want tutorials I know a guy who does some good write-ups on a blog about Control4, you can find the blog at http://c4central.com. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trdrscott Posted January 19, 2010 Author Share Posted January 19, 2010 Thanks. I think the forums are a huge positive, and if the forums did not exist, HE would be impossible to use.....I guess back to my original point/question:There is NO comprehensive manual, reference material or "help file" provided by C4 for this product. I have written macros etc for trading platforms, trading systems, and a variety of other apps not related to the financial markets. The programming "language" is different for each app, some are more intuitive than others, but they all had ONE thing in common - support material supplied by the manufacturer. Forums should SUPPLEMENT the guidance, not be the only real source of the help needed to use the product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K&J Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 I think he does need a tutorial.Even HE can be a bit difficult to someone not familiar with this type of programming.This forum is a Very good source for information and tips. I have seen great progress in trading of ideas and tips.I would suggest staying away from this ILoveC4 guy though!! JUST KIDDING!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trdrscott Posted January 19, 2010 Author Share Posted January 19, 2010 Thanks guys. I was hoping for a response from C4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecodeman Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 Control4 doesn't post on this forum very often, if at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trdrscott Posted January 19, 2010 Author Share Posted January 19, 2010 Why isn't that a surprise.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 Control4 does not officially monitor these (or any other 'end-user' forums). Those of us who work for Control4 are not going to give an 'official' answer as to why Control4 does what it does, but I *seriously* disagree with your assessment.I get the distinct impression that C4 does NOT want homeowners to be able to program their system independent of their dealers. Why?No, if Control4 didn't want homeowners programming their system independent of their dealers, they wouldn't provide ComposerHE.As to the 'Why' of it, ComposerHE grew out of requests by end users (mainly on external forums) for end users to be able to do programming of their system. The fastest and easiest way to do that was to create HE by taking ComposerPro, and limiting access to the setup features that are reserved for dealers. ComposerHE has probably 80-90% of the same functionality of ComposerPro.As ComposerPro was designed from the beginning to be an "installer's application", it was not designed for end users, and the amount of documentation indicates that to some extent, and though it has gotten better, and you've pointed out, it's still got a long way to go.As far as a ComposerHE manual, there is the help file, under Help->Index, which does go through the basics of programming quite thoroughly.The main limitation, as you're pointing out, is that there isn't a comprehensive reference as to what every single device driver within the system can do through programming.That's one of the reasons I (and some dealers) participate in these forums.the difference between "send URL get" and "send command get_image and get_mjpeg". There is no index that defines these commands and explains not only how to use them, but provides examples of the end result.* Send get_image and get_mjpeg are used internally to retrieve images from the camera to the controller. They're not terribly useful in programming.* Send URL Get is a way to send *any* GET URL to your camera, whether or not the command was implemented in your IP Camera driver. Pan/Tilt/Zoom and other camera commands are implemented in the driver as URL GETs, but it's possible that some cameras may have commands that are not implemented in the driver. This allows you to send a URL to your camera to fire a command to the camera. In most cases this is not necessary.As a side note, Send URL Get can also be used to post things to a web page that accepts GET posts.I used to use it to post CallerID to my database, with a GET post to a PHP page I created that logs to a database. It's a hack, but can be a handy one. Now that DriverWorks exists, I typically just write drivers to do that sort of thing.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 Why isn't that a surprise....Bitter much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 Why isn't that a surprise....Because there staff is supporting dealers (the business model they chose) and working on product. I am sure that one of the reasons Control4 is sold through dealers and directly through them is because they don't want to provide end user support. It requires a huge amount of staff, and with a product as complex as C4 I would imagine equipment prices would be substantially higher if they had to provide end user support. That, and they can't be everywhere to provide installation services.These are just my view and opinions, but I really like what C4 has going on. There are several C4 employees that post on here regularly, some are identified as C4 employees and some are not.Seriously though, check out C4Central. Me and a friend started that site because we both experienced your same frustrations. There is a wealth of knowledge on there, in addition to all the information available on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K&J Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 Oh man, no comment? =( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 Oh man, no comment? =(Sorry, I guess am not feeling very whitty today.I didn't realize all these other posts came in while I was typing mine, it probably doesn't make a ton of sense when you read them in order...sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trdrscott Posted January 19, 2010 Author Share Posted January 19, 2010 "Bitter much?"More like disappointed, but I appreciate your insightful replies- they really help validate my opinion considering they are coming from a Control4 employee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 Like I said, I don't speak for Control4 on these forums, and I *did* provide what I consider a helpful reply before my sarcastic response to your sarcastic response.And to really answer your question, why doesn't Control4 participate on these forums? Cody answered that correctly. Control4 is a dealer-installed system, and the great majority of the systems are installed by dealers, and homeowners don't do anything to them after the install. Because of that, Control4's tech support resources are focused on helping dealers, not end users.Why don't more Control4 employees and dealers participate? You'd have to ask them, but I've seen a lot of end users with bad attitudes cause employees and dealers to stop participating here.I apologize for my sarcastic answer.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecodeman Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 And to really answer your question, why doesn't Control4 participate on these forums? Cody answered that correctly. Control4 is a dealer-installed system, and the great majority of the systems are installed by dealers, and homeowners don't do anything to them after the install. Because of that, Control4's tech support resources are focused on helping dealers, not end users.Actually that was Dan this time around. I avoid certain topics these days as much as possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayk32 Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 Wouldn't providing support to end-users create another income stream for C4? That way C4 could have a dealer support group and a group that supports end-users. I program Cisco, Juniper, Checkpoint and various other very complex networking equipment all day long and if it wasn't for end-user support contracts the money that gets dumped back into R&D and product improvement would be significantly less for those companies. End-user support contracts also should give C4 even better insight into what homeowners are doing ... that translates into better features, better 3rd party compatibility, more reliable equipment and a better customer experience. The reality is that most people are reluctant to add another thing to their household that requires an expensive specialist to work on / fix (plumber, electrician ... C4 dealer). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 Others have also suggested allowing homeowners to take the training classes (on their own dime), and other options.While those things are certainly an option for Control4, it's not an option they've chosen to implement at this point in time.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtech Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 what i don't understand is after the price of all these components control4 would like to have the end user be able to do little tweaks here and there in respect with lighting temps doors and other items once all components have been programmed but they still have their hand out for another 150.00 bucksafter the original 30-120k spent you would figure this to be included in the cost of programming or with one of the more expensive items i would still expect to pay the 99 for 4 sight seeing as how this is not a necessitybut come on after all the cash a little respect for the end guy would be appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecodeman Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 what i don't understand is after the price of all these components control4 would like to have the end user be able to do little tweaks here and there in respect with lighting temps doors and other items once all components have been programmed but they still have their hand out for another 150.00 bucksafter the original 30-120k spent you would figure this to be included in the cost of programming or with one of the more expensive items i would still expect to pay the 99 for 4 sight seeing as how this is not a necessitybut come on after all the cash a little respect for the end guy would be appreciatedOn the other side, it's not much more than the cost of a dimmer - so in the grand scheme of things it's not a lot to ask so they can put the money back into R&D and product improvement. And it will certainly save for itself quickly, depending on how much your dealer charges to roll a truck to your house and make programming changes you could do yourself with HE. In some cases, it can equal an hour of on-site programming time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharmdsmith Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 I would pay the 150 dollars again in a heartbeat with all the access it provides me to my system. I still remember taking bids for my initial install and some dealers didn't want to sell me composer HE. I would cry if I didn't have it. (not really......well ok really) Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure crestron doesn't allow users to tweak anything. I couldn't imagine having to call them every time my kids got a new Disney movie just to load the cover art. So I say a BIG thanks to Control4 for NOT nickel and dimeing us for the rest of our life for small tweaks we want to make, but would have to pay our dealer plus wait for their availability. Maybe I'm just one of the crazy users but I think of things to add/change weekly to my system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayFunnell Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 I've been in software development for over fifteen years now so I fall into the 'let me customize' category. When I saw that Best Buy was a VC I had thoughts of C4 equipment on the shelves. If that ever happens I'm seriously going to have to get my paycheck forwarded to Best Buy Being able to program your house is just way too cool.Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercedes Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 With the investment in our systems, $150 isn't that big of a deal. Some people may not want to change anything in their systems so building this cost into every controller wouldn't be fair overall either. I look at it kind of like a car. When I buy a new car, it is my choice to add options that aren’t really needed for the car to do what it needs to do, or maybe not wanted by other people buying the same car. While I wish my car came standard with 4 wheel drive, I just pay the money for it because I feel I need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 what i don't understand is after the price of all these components control4 would like to have the end user be able to do little tweaks here and there in respect with lighting temps doors and other items once all components have been programmed but they still have their hand out for another 150.00 bucksafter the original 30-120k spent you would figure this to be included in the cost of programming or with one of the more expensive items i would still expect to pay the 99 for 4 sight seeing as how this is not a necessitybut come on after all the cash a little respect for the end guy would be appreciatedI think that most good dealers just bundle Composer HE up with everything they sell you...but I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 I too am a big fan of HE, and feel that it is reasonably priced. When I bought my last BMW they didn't "throw in" a diagnostic computer and wheel balancing machine. When I bought my home there wasn't a toolbox full of tools in the garage so I could do basic repairs and tweaks...not even a nail and hammer so I could hang my photos. I could go on and on with thousands more examples, but I think you get the point.I understand that spending more money is not fun, but it isn't like you don't get anything for it. It is just another product that you purchased and will utilize and benefit from owning...plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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