Power Outages Affecting Control4 Lighting

[ejn1]

I wanted to share something that'd turning into a real pain for me with my Control4 lighting.   About 4 months ago I installed a whole home generator.   Now whenever there is a brief power outage or one long enough to trigger the bypass and convert the home to generator power,  many of my adaptive keypads and adaptive immers start rapid flickering with different colors on the keypads.  The will not function even to turn on and off the load when they are in this flicker mode.   I have found that clicking on "autoset" for the phase of my LED home lights goes into detect mode and then corrects the phase and restores the keypad lighting to normal.   Its a major PIA to do this every time i have a power outage (sometimes only for a few seconds).   there are 1000's homes now running my type of setup so not sure if anyone else has experienced this or has any other insights.

Thanks!

[SMHarman]

Sounds like your generator is not producing the right frequency of electricity and causing this mayhem. 

[Popolou]

You can get reasonably priced double-conversion UPS's that filter and provide clean power all-times and during an outage to carry over the loads whilst the genny fires up to speed. I use one from APC in a few locations where the summer heat causes the occasional brown-out which the UPS also supplements and when plumbed to certain loads, helps considerably.

[eggzlot]

Have the same issue.  I asked two electricians about the frequency and they both gave me the same confusing answer

 

UPS won’t help as these are lighting modules (as far as I know)

[ejn1]

9 hours ago, SMHarman said:

Sounds like your generator is not producing the right frequency of electricity and causing this mayhem. 

Thanks.  A couple of things to note.   The C4 lighting has done this when there has been just a very short electrical outage before the generator has even kicked on into service (there is a programmed delay in how quickly the gen bypasses to gen power).  Yesterday when it did it, i checked the gen and it was maintaining a fairly stable 240v and 60hz voltage to the house.  When/if frequency starts to drop, it engages load shed modules to reduce the load (although mine is sized big enough to handle the full house in 99% of usage scenarios).

I'm wondering specifically if there is something with the LEDs and C4 adaptive phase dimmers when set to "autoset" to detect phase that is causing this?  I have tried to manually set phase (vs auto detect) on the switches that seem to do this everytime to see if this helps.  not 100% of my switches go into those freaky blinking mode either.

[ejn1]

1 hour ago, Popolou said:

You can get reasonably priced double-conversion UPS's that filter and provide clean power all-times and during an outage to carry over the loads whilst the genny fires up to speed. I use one from APC in a few locations where the summer heat causes the occasional brown-out which the UPS also supplements and when plumbed to certain loads, helps considerably.

you have a UPS for the whole home?   my issue is not just my equipment rack but the lighting...

[Popolou]

8 minutes ago, ejn1 said:

Can you share the APC model number? thx

An SRT10KXLI with a single expansion pack (SRT192BP2) to provide extended runtime. Should help by providing a pure sine wave if your genny doesn't (or struggles at first) or at least filter out the transients on bypass. An ordinary UPS will likely be line-interactive which does conditioning but only when it is running off the batteries - it can work if you believe the power cuts are short enough that they can be carried by the batteries or for the time it is on bypass for when the genny eventually provides good quality power.

[ejn1]

6 minutes ago, Popolou said:

An SRT10KXLI with a single expansion pack (SRT192BP2) to provide extended runtime. Should help by providing a pure sine wave if your genny doesn't (or struggles at first) or at least filter out the transients on bypass. An ordinary UPS will likely be line-interactive which does conditioning but only when it is running off the batteries - it can work if you believe the power cuts are short enough that they can be carried by the batteries or for the time it is on bypass for when the genny eventually provides good quality power.

Thx, that costs more than the generator    my guess is there is a little freq variation when the transition happens between utility power and the genset but this should be pretty normal.   I'm thinking a lot of homes that are likely candidates for home automation are installing whole home generators now so something that should concern C4 if this affects their lighting systems.

[Popolou]

3 minutes ago, ejn1 said:

Thx, that costs more than the generator

Unfortunately so, much about the market than the technology sadly. Again, depends on your loads and runtime (as in our case) but Eaton are reputable and known for quality double conversion units and priced better than APC/Schneider.

[WhyPhy]

I experienced this problem with just a power flicker from the electric utility provider. The power didn’t go out, but the lights in the house flickered, and all of the LEDs on the keypad started blinking. The easiest way to solve the problem is to turn off the breakers in the fuse panel for the affected circuits for a few seconds and then turn them back on. This is only happened to me twice in five years. Hopefully it’s not a frequent occurrence for you.

[ejn1]

13 minutes ago, WhyPhy said:

I experienced this problem with just a power flicker from the electric utility provider. The power didn’t go out, but the lights in the house flickered, and all of the LEDs on the keypad started blinking. The easiest way to solve the problem is to turn off the breakers in the fuse panel for the affected circuits for a few seconds and then turn them back on. This is only happened to me twice in five years. Hopefully it’s not a frequent occurrence for you.

Thanks, the breaker flip didn't work for me unfortunately.... Was a little more involved.

[lippavisual]

15 tap top button will reset all C4 lighting.

I get a couple circuits that do this as well, sometimes.  No rhyme or reason that I’ve found yet.

[eggzlot]

17 hours ago, lippavisual said:

15 tap top button will reset all C4 lighting.

I get a couple circuits that do this as well, sometimes.  No rhyme or reason that I’ve found yet.

hmm interesting, for a while I was using the little paddle thing on top to reset them but that is hard to do with some of the wall plates.  so then i would go into HE and just re-detect but that is time consuming.   top tapping 15 times is easy enough...

[South Africa C4 user]

1 hour ago, eggzlot said:

hmm interesting, for a while I was using the little paddle thing on top to reset them but that is hard to do with some of the wall plates.  so then i would go into HE and just re-detect but that is time consuming.   top tapping 15 times is easy enough...

It is a great little trick… just don’t lose count - 14 or 16 dont work!

[ejn1]

20 hours ago, lippavisual said:

15 tap top button will reset all C4 lighting.

I get a couple circuits that do this as well, sometimes.  No rhyme or reason that I’ve found yet.

My hypothesis is it related to the autoset phase setting with LED lights on adaptive dimmers and keypads...  i will see if my above change (manually setting reverse phase on my loads) will help with it.  The tap trick I will do also!

[Dueport]

On 8/3/2024 at 9:36 AM, ejn1 said:

Thanks.  A couple of things to note.   The C4 lighting has done this when there has been just a very short electrical outage before the generator has even kicked on into service (there is a programmed delay in how quickly the gen bypasses to gen power).  Yesterday when it did it, i checked the gen and it was maintaining a fairly stable 240v and 60hz voltage to the house.  When/if frequency starts to drop, it engages load shed modules to reduce the load (although mine is sized big enough to handle the full house in 99% of usage scenarios).

I'm wondering specifically if there is something with the LEDs and C4 adaptive phase dimmers when set to "autoset" to detect phase that is causing this?  I have tried to manually set phase (vs auto detect) on the switches that seem to do this everytime to see if this helps.  not 100% of my switches go into those freaky blinking mode either.

FWIW I have the exact same problem when power has flickered but generators haven’t kicked in and power returns before generators flip in. I dot. Remember this happening before so not sure if there was a firmware change that caused something to change impacting this in this way

[ejn1]

1 hour ago, Dueport said:

FWIW I have the exact same problem when power has flickered but generators haven’t kicked in and power returns before generators flip in. I dot. Remember this happening before so not sure if there was a firmware change that caused something to change impacting this in this way

agree, my C4 lighting was always rock solid in the past.   it was always the most "set it and done" aspect of my C4 system so hence the concern that this seems to be happening now with some frequency.   

[penn65000]

On 8/5/2024 at 7:54 PM, ejn1 said:

agree, my C4 lighting was always rock solid in the past.   it was always the most "set it and done" aspect of my C4 system so hence the concern that this seems to be happening now with some frequency.   

I have same issue now with increasing frequency. Wireless keypads all go out for good after power outage even though generator comes on. Multiple blonking lights and all 6 end up in same end state (top three LEDs on and non functional). Any solutions? Do Lutron wireless handle better? Ty

[ejn1]

12 hours ago, penn65000 said:

I have same issue now with increasing frequency. Wireless keypads all go out for good after power outage even though generator comes on. Multiple blonking lights and all 6 end up in same end state (top three LEDs on and non functional). Any solutions? Do Lutron wireless handle better? Ty

i just had it happen again the other day.   I have not found a solution yet.   I really think its something Control4 should take seriously and look into.

[penn65000]

On 8/29/2024 at 10:54 PM, ejn1 said:

i just had it happen again the other day.   I have not found a solution yet.   I really think its something Control4 should take seriously and look into.

I’ve had lighting issues for five years or more. Laggy/non-functional wireless keypads and the issues after power outages. C4 has gotten involved and couldn’t fix. Just cited “interference” even though we’re in suburbs and they install lighting in cities!

[Control4Savant]

On 8/29/2024 at 10:24 AM, penn65000 said:

I have same issue now with increasing frequency. Wireless keypads all go out for good after power outage even though generator comes on. Multiple blonking lights and all 6 end up in same end state (top three LEDs on and non functional). Any solutions? Do Lutron wireless handle better? Ty

As previously mentioned, most generators are not instantaneous so that power gap will always cause problems with electronics. They also tend to have dirty power.  Thats one of the major benefits of solar/power storage. Do you have UPS on the C4 rack equipment?  What do you mean “C4” has gotten involved? Do you mean dealers? 

[penn65000]

17 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

As previously mentioned, most generators are not instantaneous so that power gap will always cause problems with electronics. They also tend to have dirty power.  Thats one of the major benefits of solar/power storage. Do you have UPS on the C4 rack equipment?  What do you mean “C4” has gotten involved? Do you mean dealers? 

C4 sent someone from corporate to our home. They suggested some changes, including power conditioners on sump pumps. The changes did nothing. Yes we have ups on rack. 

[ejn1]

18 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

As previously mentioned, most generators are not instantaneous so that power gap will always cause problems with electronics. They also tend to have dirty power.  Thats one of the major benefits of solar/power storage. Do you have UPS on the C4 rack equipment?  What do you mean “C4” has gotten involved? Do you mean dealers? 

I have my Director on a UPS but obviously not the lighting.    I still have a hypothesis that this has something to do with the "phase" detection during the power outage and transition to gen power with all my adaptive phase dimmers and homes using more an more LEDs...   I'm not seeing the chaos occur on my switches that have non LED loads.   

[ejn1]

18 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

As previously mentioned, most generators are not instantaneous so that power gap will always cause problems with electronics. They also tend to have dirty power.  Thats one of the major benefits of solar/power storage. Do you have UPS on the C4 rack equipment?  What do you mean “C4” has gotten involved? Do you mean dealers? 

Another point is that these whole home generators are becoming more and more common.  They tend to be in expensive homes.  Expensive homes tend to be a target segment for expensive home automation like Control4 hence would be great if C4 came up with a fix...  

[Cyknight]

54 minutes ago, ejn1 said:

hence would be great if C4 came up with a fix...  

Wouldn't it be great if the generator companies came up with a fix? Such as a whole home battery back-up to fix the transition issue? You know, as they tend to target these expensive homes with expensive systems.

This is not a C4 specific issue, it also affects other lighting systems (though not all) and other overall systems to begin with. Including fancy sprinkler setups, pool controllers and, worst of all, some extensive HVAC systems (I personally have seen two different setups destroyed by poor power from a back-up generator, each far exceeding the cost of the generator setup).

 

Now, I'm not saying I would like C4 to have better handling of these in new generations of devices moving forward, but in the end I'd think the true 'fix' should be at the actual failure point.