C4 will not support any system once HE has been used ?

[TundraSonic]

Our installer/integrator told us that C4 will not provide any support, warranty or otherwise, once HE has been used and that once HE has been used then users are completely on their own. This includes problems reported and still unresolved prior to HE being used as well as problems that cannot logically be attributed to anything that is possible with HE.

Can anyone explain this to me.

Thanks,

 

[msgreenf]

that is not correct

[Andrew luecke]

If that was true, Snap wouldn't sell it.. Particularly since HE doesn't allow the installation of additional drivers (or connections), which is done intentionally. Hardware would probably need to be covered regardless.

That being said however they could argue that any additional programming isn't covered, or free support for the system (as it's possible you may have messed with programming of the system and changed programming to do something incorrect).

[TundraSonic]

Thank you guys!

Yeah, the problems we've been seeing are mostly not things that I think could be caused w/ HE.  E.G., sliders moving up and down on their own, volume suddenly jumping to 100%, volume slowly declining but on remote says 100% rather than the 80% it was initially set to, sliders disappearing on T3's, lighting scenes resulting in random values rather than programmed values, random 'phantom' lighting scenes being executed, incomplete execution of lighting scenes (most noticeable with 'goodnight' scene that is supposed to turn everything off but sometimes doesn't, names being replaced w/ numbers on T3's, system (EA-5 & T3's) locking up and needing to be power booted, and on and on).

 

[Time2Jet]

Our installer/integrator told us that C4 will not provide any support, warranty or otherwise, once HE has been used and that once HE has been used then users are completely on their own. This includes problems reported and still unresolved prior to HE being used as well as problems that cannot logically be attributed to anything that is possible with HE.
Can anyone explain this to me.
Thanks,
 

I’d be interested in where your dealer/installer came to that conclusion, because that’d be news to me (as a dealer). I could see a installer specific clause in the dealer/client contract that disclaimed any system issues caused by end user HE errors, but otherwise Control4 wouldn’t agree with the dealer that you no longer deserve support and would likely want to hear who told you that, so that they might reach out to the dealer to ask them to be better informed as to their obligation to their end users.

I’m not going to assume your dealer is wrong, but as and end user that likely paid a pretty penny to use the Control4 platform, I’d ask them if Control4 had that in writing somewhere.

HE is part of what makes Control4 a luxury platform. For example, no one knows the way you like your home lighting for to look and feel better than you. And those choices can change over time, so HE is a very powerful tool for the enduser to have instant no additional cost flexibility and control over their home system.


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[Andrew luecke]

25 minutes ago, TundraSonic said:

Thank you guys!

Yeah, the problems we've been seeing are mostly not things that I think could be caused w/ HE.  E.G., sliders moving up and down on their own, volume suddenly jumping to 100%, volume slowly declining but on remote says 100% rather than the 80% it was initially set to, sliders disappearing on T3's, lighting scenes resulting in random values rather than programmed values, random 'phantom' lighting scenes being executed, incomplete execution of lighting scenes (most noticeable with 'goodnight' scene that is supposed to turn everything off but sometimes doesn't, names being replaced w/ numbers on T3's, system (EA-5 & T3's) locking up and needing to be power booted, and on and on).

 

What lighting hardware are you using?

 

And what other hardware are you using? Are you using os3?

[zaphod]

I spoke to a local dealer once who said that he wouldn't take on clients who use HE.  So I went with someone else.

[Cyknight]

Pure BS.

C4 will support a system that uses HE. They WON'T support (perhaps help but no warranty) a system if they trace a non-legit PRO to it.

You DEALER may not support you if you use it (silly to me but...) - some dealers will state that if you're using HE will void any of THEIR warranty on work done (ie no free service for any issues, seems a bit strict to me) - more likely will say that anything CAUSED by HE (directly or not) isn't covered (which I think is fair enough).

 

As for the issues you're seeing, well some could be related to programming errors and thus 'caused' by using HE. At any rate, post the actual issues in it's own thread(s) so we can help out a bit more targeted

[Cyknight]

6 hours ago, Time2Jet said:

For example, no one knows the way you like your home lighting for to look and feel better than you.

Well, I'd argue that's not ALWAYS true, at the very least not initially. The number of times that I made initial settings/changes against my recommendations only to change it after.....

[RAV]

Dealer is talking for himself, not corporate policy.

[Time2Jet]

On 9/4/2024 at 2:19 AM, Cyknight said:

Well, I'd argue that's not ALWAYS true, at the very least not initially. The number of times that I made initial settings/changes against my recommendations only to change it after.....

Well, I stand by my opinion that the end user always knows what's best for the end user when it comes to lighting scenes, etc.  But I did disclaim that by adding "And those choices can change over time".  As a dealer, I have changed probably 30 engraved buttons over the years.  Another reason why I think HE is a fantastic tool that adds an extreme amount of value to a Control4 platform home.  Extreme customization is one of the features that sets Control4 apart.

[zaphod]

One thing that I found frustrating as an end user is that I could change programming for lights, but not when the light was bound to a keypad.  I really think that they should come up with a way to deal with that.

And making major changes to HE and Composer might make sense as well.  I have been an end user for about 16 years and I don't think that there have been fundamental changes to the application - even when it went from OS1.X->OS2->OS3.  For one thing it should be a web based application rather than a Windows-only application.

[South Africa C4 user]

3 hours ago, zaphod said:

One thing that I found frustrating as an end user is that I could change programming for lights, but not when the light was bound to a keypad.  I really think that they should come up with a way to deal with that.

And making major changes to HE and Composer might make sense as well.  I have been an end user for about 16 years and I don't think that there have been fundamental changes to the application - even when it went from OS1.X->OS2->OS3.  For one thing it should be a web based application rather than a Windows-only application.

Maybe X4?

But somehow I don’t really think so…

[Cyknight]

5 hours ago, Time2Jet said:

Well, I stand by my opinion that the end user always knows what's best for the end user when it comes to lighting scenes, etc.

Heh, You're taking my comment far too serious.

[TundraSonic]

On 9/3/2024 at 6:53 PM, Andrew luecke said:

What lighting hardware are you using?

And what other hardware are you using? Are you using os3?

OS: 3.3.2 (EA5).  3 EA1's & 1 EA3 are I/O Firmware 1.0.36, CA1 is unknown.

Lighting is; 71 channels of C4 central panels (C4-DIN-8DIM-E-V2) for downlights, sconces, etc. + some RGB UCL's of unknown mfr + 12 Juno variable color temp downlights + ≈47 Hue downlights + ≈78 LIFX (downlights, lamps, etc.).

[TundraSonic]

9 hours ago, zaphod said:

One thing that I found frustrating as an end user is that I could change programming for lights, but not when the light was bound to a keypad. 

For one thing it should be a web based application rather than a Windows-only application.

Agree about Connections (bound lights).  I'd at least like to be able to see these, and ideally change them myself rather than wait on our integrator to do it. We did away with many of them though. I think the automatic capabilities (and I assume less CPU utilization) that this provides is good but hiding it from end-users isn't.

I'm not a fan of web based apps for something like this. I would very much like to see a native mac app though.

There's a lot about HE that's quite antiquated and even still behind systems like Stargate that we were installing in the 1980's.  For us C4 is kind of the only option right now as Savant, RTI, Crestron and others don't allow for end-user programming (which is why we went w/ C4). I'm guessing that Apple or someone will have a better alternative sometime soon that will either light a fire under C4 or at least give us a better option.

[msgreenf]

I don't expect Apple to ever try to do what c4 does. 

[Andrew luecke]

1 hour ago, TundraSonic said:

Agree about Connections (bound lights).  I'd at least like to be able to see these, and ideally change them myself rather than wait on our integrator to do it. We did away with many of them though. I think the automatic capabilities (and I assume less CPU utilization) that this provides is good but hiding it from end-users isn't.

I'm not a fan of web based apps for something like this. I would very much like to see a native mac app though.

There's a lot about HE that's quite antiquated and even still behind systems like Stargate that we were installing in the 1980's.  For us C4 is kind of the only option right now as Savant, RTI, Crestron and others don't allow for end-user programming (which is why we went w/ C4). I'm guessing that Apple or someone will have a better alternative sometime soon that will either light a fire under C4 or at least give us a better option.

Hiding connections actually imho makes sense for a few reasons. Installers sometimes use software interlocks which can damage hardware if improperly linked, or for lighting, it could even be illegal if lights aren't programmed in a certain way, as some building codes dictate that actual switches must be available in certain locations.

Also, whilst it can be possible to fix programming remotely , it can be difficult to diagnose issues if you can't rely on the connections being correct.

 

Also, it makes it impossible to warrant a systems programming with HE to any capacity imho

[Popolou]

16 hours ago, zaphod said:

And making major changes to HE and Composer might make sense as well.  I have been an end user for about 16 years and I don't think that there have been fundamental changes to the application - even when it went from OS1.X->OS2->OS3.  For one thing it should be a web based application rather than a Windows-only application

Been asking them for this for years. The underlying system relies on their XML which can so very easily be run from a controller without all the C++ overhead of a client application, utilising HTML5 for example. Changes would run far smoother too. Many orgs made the change and on far more complex systems so either there is a cpu limitation issue preventing a transition or...if it ain't broke?

Maybe we need to make more noise about it. 

[TundraSonic]

9 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

Hiding connections actually ...

Good stuff. I think what you said makes sense for allowing changes to be made in HE, but not for allowing view only. 

What we currently have is like giving a programmer an app to fix but then hiding half the code and variables. Not being able to view connections creates problems.

I would take this one step further though and provide installers with the ability to protect or sandbox a connection (e.g., building code requires a switch in location A) but otherwise allow HE users to create/modify/delete.

[TundraSonic]

11 hours ago, msgreenf said:

I don't expect Apple to ever try to do what c4 does. 

Yes, Apple alone will not. But Apple + Matter + Device Mfr's likely will.

 

[Cyknight]

2 hours ago, TundraSonic said:

Yes, Apple alone will not. But Apple + Matter + Device Mfr's likely will.

 

Will they? Matter is at best a sputtering engine at the moment. It's not stalled or dead but it's not really moving well either. And yes plenty of articles out there about 'it's still coming/out there/just needs more time' - funny how ALL of them are from interviews with the Matter Org - non of them are from people at apple, google, samsung or anyone in the zigbee alliance....

We'll see I suppose

[msgreenf]

14 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

Will they? Matter is at best a sputtering engine at the moment. It's not stalled or dead but it's not really moving well either. And yes plenty of articles out there about 'it's still coming/out there/just needs more time' - funny how ALL of them are from interviews with the Matter Org - non of them are from people at apple, google, samsung or anyone in the zigbee alliance....

We'll see I suppose

I would bet money it doesnt. Next week homkit is a decade old. This year c4 is 20 years old. Control4 has done way more in that time frame 

[Cyknight]

3 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

I would bet money it doesnt. Next week homkit is a decade old. This year c4 is 20 years old. Control4 has done way more in that time frame 

I'll at least wouldn't put money on it doing it

[zaphod]

15 hours ago, TundraSonic said:

I'm not a fan of web based apps for something like this. I would very much like to see a native mac app though.

Why do you say this?  It can work pretty well.  For example, I have Unifi network hardware and the Unifi Controller is all web based.  If done properly this can be useful and it can be OS agnostic.  So with a web client you could run Composer or Composer HE from Windows, MacOS or Linux.  Or even a smartphone.