Control4 X4

[This_is_the_fun_stuff]

11 hours ago, IBZICON said:

As long as the service justifies the price for an additional benefits, I’m fine with it. 

^^ This is where I was going.  I see the benefits of 4Sight at $9 a month and if I eventually change my mind, I can drop it and still have local control.  Based on what I've seen so far, I don't see the incremental benefits of X4 being a "gain of function" level improvement and worth more than double. 

I'm also having a really hard time wrapping my head around the idea that a connect subscription is required to access the system even locally. Today I can keep using my system in perpetuity with the existing functionality and my current sunk cost.  This would have to be a monumentally better solution over what I have now for me to lock into subscription fees in perpetuity. 

[Cyknight]

23 minutes ago, This_is_the_fun_stuff said:

Today I can keep using my system in perpetuity

Well, for the foreseeable future. EVENTUALLY OS3 app would get deprecated, become unavailable in app store and no longer work on newer phone/tablet OS.

[Shoe]

Sadly, if we want to continue using control4 there is going to be additional required revenue streams. The landscape has changed along with capabilities and competition. They need the money.

[bmrowe]

13 hours ago, Shoe said:

Sadly, if we want to continue using control4 there is going to be additional required revenue streams. The landscape has changed along with capabilities and competition. They need the money.

I feel like it's not super well thought out at this point. Other subscription services generally have subsidized hardware and offer a unique value prop against pay up-front models. Control4 is a taking a weird, mixed stance of expensive hardware, dealer required, a less premium product than Savant / Crestron, and then a subscription on top of it. I get the need for a recurring revenue stream, but everything else about their business model isn't really fashioned that way.

I could see this being a better value prop if the subscription included hardware refreshes, access to Composer, etc. I'm not saying those have to be the features, but hiding table-stakes features behind a monthly sub isn't terribly attractive.

[Shoe]

My guess is that the bulk of existing customers will go along and be grateful for any innovation.

Sure, there will be complaints. Same drama has played out a few times in the last several years.

But what choice do they have? Got another idea for a revenue stream?

[Andrew luecke]

4 hours ago, bmrowe said:

I feel like it's not super well thought out at this point. Other subscription services generally have subsidized hardware and offer a unique value prop against pay up-front models. Control4 is a taking a weird, mixed stance of expensive hardware, dealer required, a less premium product than Savant / Crestron, and then a subscription on top of it. I get the need for a recurring revenue stream, but everything else about their business model isn't really fashioned that way.

I could see this being a better value prop if the subscription included hardware refreshes, access to Composer, etc. I'm not saying those have to be the features, but hiding table-stakes features behind a monthly sub isn't terribly attractive.

For the lower end of the market, the CA1 is the cheapest controller and actually has no subscription cost (from my understanding, its free for CA1 users).

For the higher end, Control4 hardware has fairly competitive pricing imho for the market segment they are in, and the subscription fees are only a small cost.

The Core hardware and CA10 is also fairly powerful (there are some massive jobs using CA10)

Offering hardware refreshes as a subscription wouldn't really work unfortunately. Different users have different requirements. We had jobs for instance with 20 or so controllers, and you'd still need an installer to upgrade the hardware, so it seems more like a service your installer would have to offer. Future updated hardware might not also work with old hardware either (like the old HC-X controllers can't be used in OS3/4, and the Core series needs OS3/4)

That being said, many installers already offer maintenance plans to their customers to allow for software upgrades and basic maintenance.

Composer HE also receives free updates.

 

From our side of things (Chowmain), on all of our supported platform's we offer free updates too over the life of the driver. There is also no shortage of our drivers from as far back as 2014 (or longer) which are getting some fairly hefty updates too, such as our Generic Lighting driver which had a new OS3.3+ driver added 2 or 3 years ago with completely different capabilities.

[bmrowe]

20 hours ago, Shoe said:

My guess is that the bulk of existing customers will go along and be grateful for any innovation.

Sure, there will be complaints. Same drama has played out a few times in the last several years.

But what choice do they have? Got another idea for a revenue stream?

I'm sure that is how it will play out. Resideo will milk whatever cash it can extract from the business. The burden of switching out of the ecosystem is too high. My point was more that it isn't a terribly customer-focused approach.

[Shoe]

25 minutes ago, bmrowe said:

My point was more that it isn't a terribly customer-focused approach.

I agree with you and I assume most would as well. It's not ideal.

I deal with a lot of legacy enterprise software. Similar thing happens there.

[fleon]

There

On 9/6/2024 at 3:21 PM, msgreenf said:

They are very low power...it's about compute not about age 

There are ways around this.

 

[This_is_the_fun_stuff]

On 1/9/2025 at 8:53 PM, bmrowe said:

I'm sure that is how it will play out. Resideo will milk whatever cash it can extract from the business. The burden of switching out of the ecosystem is too high. My point was more that it isn't a terribly customer-focused approach.

Agree. I’d like to see them offer something to legacy customers recognizing that this is a significant shift from the model they signed up for. Give people connect at the 4sight price for 3 years or Maybe a discount on new hardware and the first year subscription included. Commit to a subscription price for x years. Right now there’s not a lot of info and the more customers dig the more it just looks like a money grab.  Not fun for the dealers to try to spin that message either. There’s the “hope people won’t notice this is not great” or the “hey we value your business and want you to stick with us” approach. 
 

No one should expect their hardware to be supported forever and at some point you can no longer upgrade, but this is a little different. 

[Kaas Mayer]

I suspect that the desire for an open system and preferably without running costs will be very difficult to combine. as long as everyone keeps buying c4 hardware, the costs can be covered. but if all kinds of third-party manufacturers are brought on board, the margin will shrink. with c4, salaries simply have to be paid. projects like homeassist are just hobby projects. an extremely large number of developers and nobody gets paid for it. but when i hear here that people have been using c4 hardware for 20 years and are now complaining that new costs are being incurred, you can see that the calculation can't work out. 

[RAV]

22 years later.
Things change. What we have today, wasn't even dreamed of back then.

Maybe Control4 should have kept the plan to charge for version upgrade licenses? ($400 originally to go to os2)
Maybe Control4 should have kept the license need for smart phones? ($200ea, $500 a site)
Maybe Control4 could have raised the price of 4sight more than once. ($20+)
We've been grandfathered quite well, and they did for Apple Music, so that's something.

Tomorrow?
One thing I do know, other vendors are putting their hand out. They want to cover their overhead for servers just like Control4 does, and at least Control4 did plan for it with 4sight. (Apple, MyQ, Tesla, just the start) Who's next?
And the market is going to get tighter, vendors are going to be pressed, and that means someone's got to pay. If Control4 doesn't become the clearing house, than developers would have to, and doubtful it's worth their effort, so less options. Or you'll be paying x for the API calls, and y for the driver. And that's gonna cost more than the $130 a year difference for Connect.

And just like smart phones, processors have less wow new features and are more than sufficient for longer.
HC800 to EA to Core - hardware changes? Speed and memory, and an audio output or so.

[penn65000]

1 hour ago, RAV said:

22 years later.
Things change. What we have today, wasn't even dreamed of back then.

Maybe Control4 should have kept the plan to charge for version upgrade licenses? ($400 originally to go to os2)
Maybe Control4 should have kept the license need for smart phones? ($200ea, $500 a site)
Maybe Control4 could have raised the price of 4sight more than once. ($20+)
We've been grandfathered quite well, and they did for Apple Music, so that's something.

Tomorrow?
One thing I do know, other vendors are putting their hand out. They want to cover their overhead for servers just like Control4 does, and at least Control4 did plan for it with 4sight. (Apple, MyQ, Tesla, just the start) Who's next?
And the market is going to get tighter, vendors are going to be pressed, and that means someone's got to pay. If Control4 doesn't become the clearing house, than developers would have to, and doubtful it's worth their effort, so less options. Or you'll be paying x for the API calls, and y for the driver. And that's gonna cost more than the $130 a year difference for Connect.

And just like smart phones, processors have less wow new features and are more than sufficient for longer.
HC800 to EA to Core - hardware changes? Speed and memory, and an audio output or so.

Correct. There is no free lunch. I don’t mind paying C4 for good, error free (or error limited) hardware and software. With any recurring charge increase (and hardware evolution) there needs to be corresponding improvements — quality touch screens first try (T4, we had to RMA most), quality software upon release (think Halo), better radios in remotes (Neeo), better build quality (lighting led inconsistency, C4 audio matrix power supplies, Core 1 overheat, SR-260 LEDs). 

[This_is_the_fun_stuff]

2 hours ago, RAV said:

22 years later.
Things change. What we have today, wasn't even dreamed of back then.

Maybe Control4 should have kept the plan to charge for version upgrade licenses? ($400 originally to go to os2)

I’d be fine with a flat cost to move to x4 for legacy users on supported hardware or a requirement to buy a core1 or higher. Just be up front that it’s a big shift in the business model and offer customers (particularly ones on hardware that’s less than a year old) something in recognition of the fact that this isn’t what they signed up for. 

Look at how you can excite your customers and incentivize them to make the shift rather than assuming they’ve spent a lot already so they’ll probably fall in line. There are ways to make this a positive experience and to build/extend loyalty without sacrificing much in revenue. 

[ekohn00]

Personally the idea of needing to move to core, or an update in costs for connectivity is a sad thing, but I don’t see it as a change in the model. I’ve been on C4 for 15 years or so…things have changes, requirements have changed.

 

The only thing that actually bothers me is the need to change ALL my switches because they are to old for x4. Sorry, but when you’re up at 30+ switches that becomes a lot of work to support an upgrade. I believe there should have been some thought to a bridge….. hopefully that will get worked out.

[Shoe]

14 minutes ago, ekohn00 said:

The only thing that actually bothers me is the need to change ALL my switches because they are to old for x4. Sorry, but when you’re up at 30+ switches that becomes a lot of work to support an upgrade. I believe there should have been some thought to a bridge….. hopefully that will get worked out.

That valid. I'm guessing there are a few people at the company that think forcing you to update your switches is good for Snap. Happens everywhere. I think one thing they can do starting now is to set clear EOL policies for new products. I think they have been bobbing and weaving through the struggles and just getting anything done. I only have to thank those few core employees for sticking around. I hope they are getting paid well.

[ekohn00]

23 minutes ago, Shoe said:

That valid. I'm guessing there are a few people at the company that think forcing you to update your switches is good for Snap. Happens everywhere. I think one thing they can do starting now is to set clear EOL policies for new products. I think they have been bobbing and weaving through the struggles and just getting anything done. I only have to thank those few core employees for sticking around. I hope they are getting paid well.

Reality with technology is there’s always an EOL and hard to predict. It could be as simple as the pre-Zigbee devices just aren’t supported because they can’t find chips anymore. There can be lots of reasons it happens.

I’m just hopeful that someone somewhere finds a way to bridge the non-supported old devices into a fully operational x4 system, because there’s no way I’m going to replace that many switches throughout the house. (At least i hope i won’t be)

[South Africa C4 user]

39 minutes ago, ekohn00 said:

Reality with technology is there’s always an EOL and hard to predict. It could be as simple as the pre-Zigbee devices just aren’t supported because they can’t find chips anymore. There can be lots of reasons it happens.

I’m just hopeful that someone somewhere finds a way to bridge the non-supported old devices into a fully operational x4 system, because there’s no way I’m going to replace that many switches throughout the house. (At least i hope i won’t be)

As long as C4 doesn’t block the Domaudeo multi system driver in X4 then it seems very likely that one could use this driver and a second C4 system on any controller (HC250 or CA1) and an older OS (2 or 3) as a bridge to control lights.

[Shoe]

1 hour ago, ekohn00 said:

Reality with technology is there’s always an EOL and hard to predict.

I get what you meant, but putting it in black and white is still possible. Lots of ways to word it and what it means, but stating a switch will be supported on the platform in some form until 2035 is possible. It's good for planning on both sides. It doesn't have to mean C4 is stuck on a technology for 10 years. It means that they need to support it in some way for 10 years. No reason they can't run parallel products. Super common to actually do this to entice people to the next thing and spend more money. I do stand by my recommendation that C4 be clearer about the product lifecycles.

But yes, I hope there is a way for you to run your switches even if it means 2 controllers.

[Darin, PM C4 CX Platform]

1 hour ago, South Africa C4 user said:

As long as C4 doesn’t block the Domaudeo multi system driver in X4 then it seems very likely that one could use this driver and a second C4 system on any controller (HC250 or CA1) and an older OS (2 or 3) as a bridge to control lights.

I don't know much about this integration, but to the best of my knowledge this shouldn't be blocked. Control4 isn't planning to block anything moving from OS 3 (3.4.x) to X4 (4.0).  The only integration and devices that would be effected are those that were doing unauthorized things with unpublished APIs or utilizing the lua io.popen() function which was deprecated years ago and is fully removed in X4. 

Your best course would be to reach out to the driver developer to ensue they are testing things during beta, so their updates are already available once X4 rolls out to the broader public. 

[Andrew luecke]

5 minutes ago, Darin, PM C4 CX Platform said:

I don't know much about this integration, but to the best of my knowledge this shouldn't be blocked. Control4 isn't planning to block anything moving from OS 3 (3.4.x) to X4 (4.0).  The only integration and devices that would be effected are those that were doing unauthorized things with unpublished APIs or utilizing the lua io.popen() function which was deprecated years ago and is fully removed in X4. 

Your best course would be to reach out to the driver developer to ensue they are testing things during beta, so their updates are already available once X4 rolls out to the broader public. 

In addition to this, all of Chowmain's drivers which need licencing have already been updated and should be live already.

We also revamped the communications handling a bit in some of them too like on echonet lite and they actually are more responsive than before

[Cyknight]

2 hours ago, Shoe said:

I get what you meant, but putting it in black and white is still possible. Lots of ways to word it and what it means, but stating a switch will be supported on the platform in some form until 2035 is possible. It's good for planning on both sides. It doesn't have to mean C4 is stuck on a technology for 10 years. It means that they need to support it in some way for 10 years. No reason they can't run parallel products. Super common to actually do this to entice people to the next thing and spend more money. I do stand by my recommendation that C4 be clearer about the product lifecycles.

But yes, I hope there is a way for you to run your switches even if it means 2 controllers.

So DO NOT UPDATE PAST X4 INITIAL.

 

This is the part that seems to constantly be getting forgotten/ignored, updates are OPTIONAL

22 hours ago, This_is_the_fun_stuff said:

Maybe a discount on new hardware

They have said from the start that there will be incentives to upgrade hardware on or around release.

 

[Tokead]

Personally the idea of needing to move to core, or an update in costs for connectivity is a sad thing, but I don’t see it as a change in the model. I’ve been on C4 for 15 years or so…things have changes, requirements have changed.
 
The only thing that actually bothers me is the need to change ALL my switches because they are to old for x4. Sorry, but when you’re up at 30+ switches that becomes a lot of work to support an upgrade. I believe there should have been some thought to a bridge….. hopefully that will get worked out.

Agree. Also 15 years, and I’ve updated controllers through the years, but I’m not going to swap out almost 40 switches


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[IBZICON]

20 hours ago, Tokead said:

Agree. Also 15 years, and I’ve updated controllers through the years, but I’m not going to swap out almost 40 switches


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I assume that “switches” refers to light switches and not network switches.  Some of us have 100+ light switches, as I sure that @South Africa C4 user with two large projects is over 250+ combined light switches.  It would have been great to have foresight what would work 15 years ago in 2025 with the upcoming X4, but with technology advances this is the unknown that we take a risk with when committing to a home automat system. 

[South Africa C4 user]

18 hours ago, IBZICON said:

I assume that “switches” refers to light switches and not network switches.  Some of us have 100+ light switches, as I sure that @South Africa C4 user with two large projects is over 250+ combined light switches.  It would have been great to have foresight what would work 15 years ago in 2025 with the upcoming X4, but with technology advances this is the unknown that we take a risk with when committing to a home automat system. 

Indeed. I would certainly guess that I have over 200 switches / keypads across my projects. Fortunalately the majority are gen 3 so not impacted. I am hoping to bridge the rest using the Domaudeo multi system driver.  It appears seamless and perfect for now (but in my test case, I am using 2 linked OS3 projects at one residence).  I am assuming that linking an OS4 project to OS3 will work with this driver.  If it does then I won’t need to upgrade any switches… if not… well in my case, I will probably upgrade the switches and be glad that it is only a small proportion of my switches that are gen 2.