Dealer help needed to modify simple things in project

[SMHarman]

I agree here.  I don't know what the magic pricepoint is, but any change means: 1) Scheduling, 2) Making the change 3) Testing the change 4) Customer acceptance and billing.  And that's if everything goes right.  More than likely (I would hope at least), the dealer will need to determine if any programming or lighting scenes will also need to be changed.  That doesn't sound like the case in this request, but if the request was to add a new light (vs move), then you would have to make sure the "House Off" (for example) lighting scene is updated to include the new light, etc.

 

Also, a quick comparison with my spa dealer.  I'd venture to say I've spent close to $40k with my C4 dealer.  About the same time, I purchased a hot tub for $12k.  They delivered, set it up, no fuss or worry.  At that point, there's really no recurring sale for them (I'm not the type that goes in every month and buys spa chems off the shelf - I buy it in bulk much cheaper online).  However, I had a minor issue with one of the LEDs.  The spa dealer was out the very next day, drained the spa, replaced the LED and then took the initiative to check all of the others after which they found another issue that had to be addressed.  They refilled the spa, put their chemicals in and returned two days later when the next part came in to do the very same thing as well as leave me a chem test report.  No charge.

 

Which begs a question to our dealer group here.  As dealers, are you compensated for your time for warranty items? 

I agree with the above, but this is likely overanalysis for a user on this forum as the user is likely to be doing their system program, not the dealer so the request is to add the device and go away.

 

A customer who wants a keypad / light and wants it to work will likely be calling the dealer upfront and not calling the delaer telling them they bought a switch on ebay now what.

 

That customer will be getting the switch from the dealer, probably having the dealer or a licenced electrician install it.  Then having the dealer make the code changes as well as the identifying.  That dealer should be using this as a time to work on recurring revenue suggesting system upgrades etc and to do this work.

 

This is realistically another spin on the Control4 dealer model sucks if you want to DIY thread.

[SMHarman]

If everyones in agreement that nearly all dealers have zero interest in making small changes to a customers system because they have bigger fish to fry doesnt thay show a huge problem with the busimess model? Leaving customers to become frustrated and live with an aging system for 6+ months that needs 10 min worth of updating because they don't have $5,000 worth of work.. Hopefully Control4 reads this and opens their eyes and let's customers have a more powerful version of composer.

Or where smart dealers are selling a recurring revenue service of a quarterly/semi annual healthcheck, update to the latest OS version etc.

 

You don't buy a $20-50k car and never get it serviced (or expect free servicing - unless that was part of the initial pitch like BMW do for 3 years.  Why do you expect to buy a HA system and not require a service or not expect to pay for that service?  Both require time, travel and materials.

 

If you buy a new part for your car and it requres hooking into the electronic communications network or otherwise work to tell the car that it now has a new part there you have to take it to the dealer and pay dealer time.

 

Taking that model, to change a brake disc on a car there is a dealer rack rate of time charged to do that task.  The dealer has an hourly rate applied to that (higher in Manhattan than in Syracuse) and then bills accordingly.

 

Perhaps it would be nice for Control4 to have suggested rack rates of time to do some post install project tasks and bill accordingly.  Then the dealer just needs a decent trouble ticket system to track these requests, then execute them.  The billing is just another bill for the billing team to deal with, or a credit card number to collect up front when the ticket is raised.

[neil12011]

This is where guys like Neil come in as life savers, they are usually willing to remote in and do these small changes, if it was me and my dealer treated me like that I would stop using him and find a dealer here that is willing to sell you hardware and use Neil as my go to programmer

 

Thanks for the kudos.

[mstafford388]

I agree here.  I don't know what the magic pricepoint is, but any change means: 1) Scheduling, 2) Making the change 3) Testing the change 4) Customer acceptance and billing.  And that's if everything goes right.  More than likely (I would hope at least), the dealer will need to determine if any programming or lighting scenes will also need to be changed.  That doesn't sound like the case in this request, but if the request was to add a new light (vs move), then you would have to make sure the "House Off" (for example) lighting scene is updated to include the new light, etc.

 

Also, a quick comparison with my spa dealer.  I'd venture to say I've spent close to $40k with my C4 dealer.  About the same time, I purchased a hot tub for $12k.  They delivered, set it up, no fuss or worry.  At that point, there's really no recurring sale for them (I'm not the type that goes in every month and buys spa chems off the shelf - I buy it in bulk much cheaper online).  However, I had a minor issue with one of the LEDs.  The spa dealer was out the very next day, drained the spa, replaced the LED and then took the initiative to check all of the others after which they found another issue that had to be addressed.  They refilled the spa, put their chemicals in and returned two days later when the next part came in to do the very same thing as well as leave me a chem test report.  No charge.

 

Which begs a question to our dealer group here.  As dealers, are you compensated for your time for warranty items? 

 

 

Our company policy is we warranty everything (equipment and labor) for 1 year.  We will also handle any RMAs for equipment covered beyond that by a manufacturers warranty for whatever period that warranty is for.  We are not compensated by any manufacturer for time involved with dealing with warranty items.  You just have to bite the bullet on that one.  For our control4 systems we also do service contracts where we will do a full system check, update software, etc.  As part of that we also offer blocks of programming time at a discounted rate when paid upfront with the service contract.

 

It is unfathomable to me that dealers do not provide great service to customers who have bought equipment from them.  We probably get 30-40% of our business from referrals/repeat business.  That being said, I can see why dealers shy away from the customer who bought a system from another dealer and just needs it tweaked/fixed.  I can't tell you how many times I've gone to look at a control4 system another dealer installed that is having issues.  It is pretty much the same thing every time.  The customer is pissed, and rightly so, because they just spent 20k on a system and I'm telling them it's going to be $110/hr for me to fix it.  That sucks.  But we obviously can't run out to someones house for $20 because they just bought an apple TV and need the 3 mins of programming and their dealer won't call them back.

 

All that brings me to my biggest point.  Build a relationship with your dealer.  I can't tell you how many times we do things under "warranty" even if it's well after a year for good, cool customers.  I do simple stuff for customers for free every single day if its something I can do remotely, and I will say I'm a lot quicker to do that stuff if you are nice to me.  I also have several customers who when they need some programming changes done they invite me (and often my wife) over for dinner.  I tell you what, I'll program anything you want while sitting there with a glass of wine after dinner.  It is all about the relationship.

 

The only other thing I can say is be cool to people on here too.  There are several people here, myself include, who will do remote programming at a very reasonable rate.  I can only speak for myself, but I don't have to charge you what my company charges because I have exactly zero overhead to do something like that.  My company loves it because I just added a customer who may come to us for a 4sight renewal, or a few dimmers, or whatever.  In my opinion this type of set up makes the most sense for a DIY kind of thing.  

[therockhr]

Or where smart dealers are selling a recurring revenue service of a quarterly/semi annual healthcheck, update to the latest OS version etc.

 

You don't buy a $20-50k car and never get it serviced (or expect free servicing - unless that was part of the initial pitch like BMW do for 3 years.  Why do you expect to buy a HA system and not require a service or not expect to pay for that service?  Both require time, travel and materials.

 

If you buy a new part for your car and it requres hooking into the electronic communications network or otherwise work to tell the car that it now has a new part there you have to take it to the dealer and pay dealer time.

 

Taking that model, to change a brake disc on a car there is a dealer rack rate of time charged to do that task.  The dealer has an hourly rate applied to that (higher in Manhattan than in Syracuse) and then bills accordingly.

 

Perhaps it would be nice for Control4 to have suggested rack rates of time to do some post install project tasks and bill accordingly.  Then the dealer just needs a decent trouble ticket system to track these requests, then execute them.  The billing is just another bill for the billing team to deal with, or a credit card number to collect up front when the ticket is raised.

 

I'm not a big fan of comparing home control systems to other industries or trades because they are different technologies, skill sets and safety concerns. If a user doesnt program their TV remote correctly they may miss a ball game, if a user doesnt install their brakes correctly on their car they may get in a wreck.

 

Integrators should be in the service business. They should be selling a solution, not just a product. Whether the integrator sells C4, Crestron or whatever, it shouldnt matter to the user who just has a need for a solution (in this case home automation). The integrator does the work that the end user either doesn't want to do, doesnt have time to do or doesnt have the knowledge to do. And from what I have seen on here and from the people who post on twitter with the hashtag #liveinstall there are lots of installers who do amazing work.

 

On the flip side, there are users who know what product they want because they do have the knowledge, money and the time to install what they want. Integrators can still play a role for them by providing initial consultation, hardware and software. Selling end users hardware and software is an easy revenue for the dealers.

 

I know that there are supposedly DIY solutions out there but they all look terrible. There is a middle ground out here for all the different types of users/customers. As it stands now, Control4 and its integrators are missing out on a big segment of potential customers who have the money to spend but want to be able to design and change the system as they see fit.

[ericscales]

Our company policy is we warranty everything (equipment and labor) for 1 year. We will also handle any RMAs for equipment covered beyond that by a manufacturers warranty for whatever period that warranty is for. We are not compensated by any manufacturer for time involved with dealing with warranty items. You just have to bite the bullet on that one. For our control4 systems we also do service contracts where we will do a full system check, update software, etc. As part of that we also offer blocks of programming time at a discounted rate when paid upfront with the service contract.

It is unfathomable to me that dealers do not provide great service to customers who have bought equipment from them. We probably get 30-40% of our business from referrals/repeat business. That being said, I can see why dealers shy away from the customer who bought a system from another dealer and just needs it tweaked/fixed. I can't tell you how many times I've gone to look at a control4 system another dealer installed that is having issues. It is pretty much the same thing every time. The customer is pissed, and rightly so, because they just spent 20k on a system and I'm telling them it's going to be $110/hr for me to fix it. That sucks. But we obviously can't run out to someones house for $20 because they just bought an apple TV and need the 3 mins of programming and their dealer won't call them back.

All that brings me to my biggest point. Build a relationship with your dealer. I can't tell you how many times we do things under "warranty" even if it's well after a year for good, cool customers. I do simple stuff for customers for free every single day if its something I can do remotely, and I will say I'm a lot quicker to do that stuff if you are nice to me. I also have several customers who when they need some programming changes done they invite me (and often my wife) over for dinner. I tell you what, I'll program anything you want while sitting there with a glass of wine after dinner. It is all about the relationship.

The only other thing I can say is be cool to people on here too. There are several people here, myself include, who will do remote programming at a very reasonable rate. I can only speak for myself, but I don't have to charge you what my company charges because I have exactly zero overhead to do something like that. My company loves it because I just added a customer who may come to us for a 4sight renewal, or a few dimmers, or whatever. In my opinion this type of set up makes the most sense for a DIY kind of thing.

Exactly the customer service and positive attitude that applies across industries and service lines. Spot f***ing on!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CFUG]

I have programmed PLC's (programmable logic controllers) and DCS' (distributed control systems) for the past 7 years. When we buy a system from say Allen Bradley, Siemens, Emerson, Honeywell, etc. we buy the hardware and software. I think this is a model control4 needs to look into

 

 

I'm not a big fan of comparing home control systems to other industries or trades because they are different technologies, skill sets and safety concerns. If a user doesnt program their TV remote correctly they may miss a ball game...

 

 

Really?  Additionally, have you programmed in LabView ever?  If so, care to quote the license renewal fee here? 

[cdepaola]

20% of the current cost... Isn't this only if you need or want updates? I believe you can pay for the license once and keep using that version for as long as it works with what your doing. no?

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[therockhr]

Really?  Additionally, have you programmed in LabView ever?  If so, care to quote the license renewal fee here? 

 

I have never programmed with Labview. For PLC's I have programmed in AB Controllogix, Texas Instruments TiSoft, Siemens Simatic Manager and Siemens APT. In DCS's I have used Honeywell TDC3000, Honeywell Experion and Emerson DeltaV.

 

Our company is large enough where we have yearly service contracts with those companies that include tech support and software upgrades. But I do know that smaller companies buy the current version of that software and then pay an upgrade fee if they ever want to go to the latest version. I am sure the licensing cost is outrageous though. Especially DCS vendors whose customers include the oil companies. I would hope that we wouldn't compare licensing for a consumer product versus an industrial product.I would think the Control4 software license could be in the MS Office or Photoshop price range.

 

The point is if the user wants to pay to program their system, let them. You can get money from a customer who wouldnt have used the product otherwise. If they are able to program the system then hopefully they come back to you to buy software upgrades, keypads, controllers, etc. If they end up not being able to program it, you can step in and make a nice profit fixing their system. I don't really see the downside.

[CFUG]

I have never programmed with Labview. For PLC's I have programmed in AB Controllogix, Texas Instruments TiSoft, Siemens Simatic Manager and Siemens APT. In DCS's I have used Honeywell TDC3000, Honeywell Experion and Emerson DeltaV.

 

Our company is large enough where we have yearly service contracts with those companies that include tech support and software upgrades. But I do know that smaller companies buy the current version of that software and then pay an upgrade fee if they ever want to go to the latest version. I am sure the licensing cost is outrageous though. Especially DCS vendors whose customers include the oil companies. I would hope that we wouldn't compare licensing for a consumer product versus an industrial product.I would think the Control4 software license could be in the MS Office or Photoshop price range.

 

The point is if the user wants to pay to program their system, let them. You can get money from a customer who wouldnt have used the product otherwise. If they are able to program the system then hopefully they come back to you to buy software upgrades, keypads, controllers, etc. If they end up not being able to program it, you can step in and make a nice profit fixing their system. I don't really see the downside.

Control4 does allow end-users to "program".  Much like your PLCs (which require very basic level of programming knowledge, albeit proprietary), you are free to do with it want you want using a finite set of commands.  Control4 works the same way- HE gives you a finite set of commands and HO can go from there.  If you want to continue to argue the point wouldn't it be better to spin it the other way and ask why Control4 doesn't come-up with a utility to add new devices in place of dealer-installed devices along with a wizard for swapping "connections".  Just that, no more.

 

Come on dealers, there must be some info over on dealer forum related to the direction of Composer.  Way too many of these threads and this topic will never stop popping-up.

[therockhr]

Control4 does allow end-users to "program".  Much like your PLCs (which require very basic level of programming knowledge, albeit proprietary), you are free to do with it want you want using a finite set of commands.  Control4 works the same way- HE gives you a finite set of commands and HO can go from there.  If you want to continue to argue the point wouldn't it be better to spin it the other way and ask why Control4 doesn't come-up with a utility to add new devices in place of dealer-installed devices along with a wizard for swapping "connections".  Just that, no more.

 

Come on dealers, there must be some info over on dealer forum related to the direction of Composer.  Way too many of these threads and this topic will never stop popping-up.

Are you trying to troll me or something? PLC and DCS programming is no different than any other programming out there and at times is more difficult given the deterministic nature of a controller. I actually do .Net programming now with process historian software (OSISoft PI) and it's no different than PLC programming. It's all code. I can assure you it takes more than a basic level of programming knowledge to program a PLC. There are no configuration wizards to automate a reactor.

There does not need to be any seperate versions of the C4 software. Why add that confusion? License the software to the users who have the time and knowledge to configure the system and let the others call a dealer. The dealer is able to sell a product to a group that otherwise wouldn't have even bought the system without the ability to program it.

[therockhr]

Control4 does allow end-users to "program".  Much like your PLCs (which require very basic level of programming knowledge, albeit proprietary), you are free to do with it want you want using a finite set of commands.  Control4 works the same way- HE gives you a finite set of commands and HO can go from there.  If you want to continue to argue the point wouldn't it be better to spin it the other way and ask why Control4 doesn't come-up with a utility to add new devices in place of dealer-installed devices along with a wizard for swapping "connections".  Just that, no more.

Also, those "finite set of commands" on a PLC will let me communicate with a motor's drive using a modbus serial connection. Would Composer HE let me do the equivalent? no. The PLC software will allow the user to write a driver to parse an ASCII string coming from a large industrial water filter. Again, would Composer HE let me do the equivalent to that? No.

There has to be some kind of middle ground out there between those terrible looking DIY systems out there or having to get a turnkey system from a dealer.

[AK1]

This topic thrashed to death recently here http://www.c4forums.com/topic/14473-composer-pro/

[cdepaola]

Control4 does allow end-users to "program".  Much like your PLCs (which require very basic level of programming knowledge, albeit proprietary), you are free to do with it want you want using a finite set of commands.  Control4 works the same way- HE gives you a finite set of commands and HO can go from there.  If you want to continue to argue the point wouldn't it be better to spin it the other way and ask why Control4 doesn't come-up with a utility to add new devices in place of dealer-installed devices along with a wizard for swapping "connections".  Just that, no more.

 

Come on dealers, there must be some info over on dealer forum related to the direction of Composer.  Way too many of these threads and this topic will never stop popping-up.

 

 

I've got to ask, if it bothers you that people want it so much and it does seem that you have a big gripe with it then why even read these threads and/or reply?  The best way to make something in a forum go away is to not feed it.  

 

People "want" all kinds of things in life and this happens to be one of those things for some people.  Think about the things you may want and how you would react if people kept telling you to stop asking and forget about it because you'll never get it.  

 

If people didn't ask for things and push for change then we would never have change.  One of my favorite sayings comes from an old car commercial:  "If we settle for good enough, would anything ever truly be good enough?"

[SMHarman]

I'm not a big fan of comparing home control systems to other industries or trades because they are different technologies, skill sets and safety concerns. If a user doesnt program their TV remote correctly they may miss a ball game, if a user doesnt install their brakes correctly on their car they may get in a wreck.

 

Integrators should be in the service business. They should be selling a solution, not just a product. Whether the integrator sells C4, Crestron or whatever, it shouldnt matter to the user who just has a need for a solution (in this case home automation). The integrator does the work that the end user either doesn't want to do, doesnt have time to do or doesnt have the knowledge to do. And from what I have seen on here and from the people who post on twitter with the hashtag #liveinstall there are lots of installers who do amazing work.

Ok so carrying on this comparison, they are allowed to have the tools to screw up installing new brakes on the car and get into a wreck.

 

Integrators NEED to be in the service business else you run out of homes.  Those homes will get new toys, have toys break etc.  At work you have an IT helpdesk, why are our CIs not building out their service side to offer the IT helpdesk of the home?  For a monthly fee we keep the data networks whirring?

[cdepaola]

Ok so carrying on this comparison, they are allowed to have the tools to screw up installing new brakes on the car and get into a wreck.

 

Integrators NEED to be in the service business else you run out of homes.  Those homes will get new toys, have toys break etc.  At work you have an IT helpdesk, why are our CIs not building out their service side to offer the IT helpdesk of the home?  For a monthly fee we keep the data networks whirring?

 

These services do exist and those that can afford them have them...  Those that can't either learn to do it themselves or they find a friend that does. 

[Godzilla]

making friends is always a good thing

[SMHarman]

This reminds me of my last Saab and the Saab forums.

SAAB has TechII which interfaced through the ODBII port and did stuff to the cars programming.

Similarly it was dealer only. You could seriously screw up the car and the EMU with it.

People on the forums regularly complained they could not get their hands on techII and they has to go to a dealer's to program a new car key. Set the Daylight Running lights off, the alarm honking the horn etc.

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[Tokead]

People run their businesses the way that works best for them. That's human nature. Some only change when it's forced on them by the market

Some look for the big sales and move on from there always looking for the next big one and spending the marketing money to boot.

Some are fortunate to be in markets where the median income is enough to support big sales through marketing and luck of the draw.

Others are in competitive markets with tight margins and can't spend the money on marketing or waiting for the next big sale to pay the bills. Those are the businesses most likely to get back to you, provide outstanding service and build relationships that result in referrals and new business. I'm guessing they are also on this forum.

All business are sales based. Some just do it better and look for the long term business.

I'm not saying ones better than the other with their work. Just that one has more staying power, and gets invited to stay for dinner.

Two of my biggest sales came from customers who weren't given the time by my competitors. Just spending 10-30 minutes with them and listening, in one case a $7 part, resulted in $150,000 sales. Missed by companies they'd already been in who we're looking for the big sale.

This isn't about having Pro. This is about providing service that meets the requirements of the customer, at the time and price that happens to be convenient to them, while letting the company remain successful. $10 a switch for example which is what I've paid in the past for remote instal.

If too many businesses slough off the small demands of their clients. It will ultimately affect C4's business. They will then drive the change to ensure they stay in business, which may affect those looking for the next big one.

It's a symbiotic relationship: both need each other, but there's always another company looking for business. Don't trash each other, look at it as an opportunity.

Sorry for the ramble. Hard to read on a phone.

Toke

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CFUG]

... If I had access to Composer Pro I could make the necessary modifications in 10-15 seconds.

Seems like it is about CPro.  I mean why would we all care what kind of relationship one has with his dealer?  It's what works for two people.  You didn't get forced into your marriage did you (lets hope you didn't )?  So, why would it not be possible to just find a new dealer and move-on with whatever it is you need?  Instead, it always turns into some indictment of C4's way of conducting business. 

[Tokead]

Seems like it is about CPro.  I mean why would we all care what kind of relationship one has with his dealer?  It's what works for two people.  You didn't get forced into your marriage did you (lets hope you didn't )?  So, why would it not be possible to just find a new dealer and move-on with whatever it is you need?  Instead, it always turns into some indictment of C4's way of conducting business. 

 

Yes, for some Pro is the answer they want. I've had Pro and other than adding a switch I would rather leave it to my dealer. This thread didn't start off about Pro: there's enough threads on that topic for C4 to read, and for potential customers to consider when reviewing options. I know of at least two people who chose other systems because of the perceived limitations.

 

I've dealt with a dealer who vanished once he felt he was done - I wasn't a big job - and I've never referred him: I've done the contrary. I've dealt with a dealer the last couple of years who would reply by email to acknowledge my call and say he was busy and would get back to me. I'd wait for him as I knew what was going on. I've referred him to others, and I've given bottle(s) of wine. That's the "relationship".

 

You're right, if the relationship sucks, get divorced. However, in the case of any business, the customer is always in the drivers seat. Provide crappy or overly expensive service/product too many times they move on, and you're out of business.

 

This thread isn't a C4 bash, yet, from my perspective. It's about the ability of the customer to add or have added small additions to their project without being beholden to their dealer (time or attitude) or going into the poor house to have it added: if I had to pay as much for remote access as I paid for the switch I'm not going to buy it.

 

From the description of some of the projects on this forum, I don't even make a fraction of some the members, and a $100 is a big deal to me. So yes I buy from eBay, and my dealer instals it remotely.

 

My system has grown to the whole house thanks to purchases from eBay, but I limit the purchases to $300 or less. As a result I've expanded what I want the project to do, and I've bought a new 800 and EV licenses from my dealer. I've had him out to instal speakers, network, etc None of that would have happened without the relationship, timely responses and reasonable charges. This is where C4 should be interested/concerned as the actions/attitudes of some of their dealers could cost them residual and referral business from their easiest marketing stream, their existing customers. If speculation is correct, C4 can expect more competition so why allow their model to be affected by those purported to represent them.

 

I don't know if you're a dealer, have a good relationship with your dealer or whatever, but sometimes you come across as being critical of those who want/suggest something other than the status quo. Isn't it the idea of any forum to engage in respectful discussion, share practices, help others with issues and work to make the item more acceptable to the mainstream? We can agree to disagree

[CFUG]

I'm critical when it comes complaining too much.  All you guys have to say is "why can't there be some method of adding a device via a wizard".  Yes it is about Pro.  If there was a poll feature on this forum you would see that.  My dealer left a long time ago, Joe's dealer left too and John's still waiting for a return phone call going on two months now.  Who cares?  Get a new one.  Many here seem to think they are the voice of Control4. Write them directly- this is not their portal for ideas.  Yes, some have materialized but this is their current decision is to not make that feature available in HE.  Respect it.

 

You said it too-

 

"It's about the ability of the customer to add or have added small additions to their project without being beholden to their dealer (time or attitude) or going into the poor house to have it added: if I had to pay as much for remote access as I paid for the switch I'm not going to buy it"

 

If it's about drivers, connections, etc., you would be taking about Composer Pro.  Period.  It's important to get to the point in an expeditious manner and just say I WANT A DEVICE WIZARD!  Forget the dealers, forget the modern day trend that things always need to be changing, just say what you want in one sentence- not 3 pages.

[wingzz]

Thanks for the kudos.

 

 

Nothing that I dont feel is true Neil, otherwise I wouldnt have posted it

[wingzz]

Are you trying to troll me or something? PLC and DCS programming is no different than any other programming out there and at times is more difficult given the deterministic nature of a controller. I actually do .Net programming now with process historian software (OSISoft PI) and it's no different than PLC programming. It's all code. I can assure you it takes more than a basic level of programming knowledge to program a PLC. There are no configuration wizards to automate a reactor.

There does not need to be any seperate versions of the C4 software. Why add that confusion? License the software to the users who have the time and knowledge to configure the system and let the others call a dealer. The dealer is able to sell a product to a group that otherwise wouldn't have even bought the system without the ability to program it.

 

I have to agree with therockhr on this, programming a PLC used to be a easy thing but the new processors with enet and motion control, along with closed loop process control they require much more than a basic level of programing knowledge

Sorry touched a nerve there

[CFUG]

^He's not hitting on you.  But, wingzz, this is why you go to college and learn discipline.  When you get to the workplace, you then are familiar with how to crack-open that instruction book thick as the bible and read until the job is done.  I never said it is "wizard" driven or even easy but get 30 yrs. of that under your belt and you start to do it instinctively.