arden.ballard Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Hey folks. Meeting with local c4 dealers and receiving a little sticker shock. I wondered what others have done to help lower costs during the initial install. Any pointers? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMG1199 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 What kind of integration are you looking to do? Audio, video, climate, security, lighting etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arden.ballard Posted December 31, 2016 Author Share Posted December 31, 2016 3400 sq ft home; Security w door monitor, 2-3 tablets (one built in), control of 2 central AC, one mini-split (optional), super basic lighting scenes (not really sure what we would want/use yet), at least 6 zones of a/v with one 5.1 setup. As it's a new house, I need networking solution, I'm guessing an WAP or two, speakers, tv's... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMG1199 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 13 minutes ago, arden.ballard said: 3400 sq ft home; Security w door monitor, 2-3 tablets (one built in), control of 2 central AC, one mini-split (optional), super basic lighting scenes (not really sure what we would want/use yet), at least 6 zones of a/v with one 5.1 setup. As it's a new house, I need networking solution, I'm guessing an WAP or two, speakers, tv's... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Have you sourced quotes from different dealers? I ditched lighting from my build. It can easily be added at a later time unless you want to do panelized lighting. My zoned central ac system was not compatible with Control4 so cost was absorbed in hvac proposal. You could also cut down on cost by pre-wiring for touch pads and deciding whether you really need them. I stream Sonos from my phone and control TV's with SR260 remotes and rarely even use my touch screens. For network, pre wire Ethernet to each room and a few different locations for WAP's. This will make it easier to add additional WAP's after insulation and walls are up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arden.ballard Posted December 31, 2016 Author Share Posted December 31, 2016 Have you sourced quotes from different dealers? I ditched lighting from my build. It can easily be added at a later time unless you want to do panelized lighting. My zoned central ac system was not compatible with Control4 so cost was absorbed in hvac proposal. You could also cut down on cost by pre-wiring for touch pads and deciding whether you really need them. I stream Sonos from my phone and control TV's with SR260 remotes and rarely even use my touch screens. For network, pre wire Ethernet to each room and a few different locations for WAP's. This will make it easier to add additional WAP's after insulation and walls are up. Thanks for this. I'm in the process of getting quotes now. I'm also using as much leverage as possible; our home will be on display for two weekends as a parade of homes, so I'm trying to get incentivized pricing in exchange of having a rep or two at the home to demo the product to patrons viewing the house. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Video Distribution is awesome (I have it and love it) but it's pricey. The touch screens are also pricey for what they are. As also mentioned, lighting can easily be added later and is expensive. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaarrEagle Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Depending on your capability, find an online dealer (several are on this forum), do the physical install yourself, and have them remote connect for all programming. It can be done - I have never had a dealer set foot in my house and I probably saved thousands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdw5510 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 2 minutes ago, WaarrEagle said: Depending on your capability, find an online dealer (several are on this forum), do the physical install yourself, and have them remote connect for all programming. It can be done - I have never had a dealer set foot in my house and I probably saved thousands. What this post says is the best. Buy your stuff from a dealer, let me know if you need one, got a good one. They can do programming remotely. If you are able to install the hardware yourself you will save a bunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arden.ballard Posted December 31, 2016 Author Share Posted December 31, 2016 What this post says is the best. Buy your stuff from a dealer, let me know if you need one, got a good one. They can do programming remotely. If you are able to install the hardware yourself you will save a bunch. If it's a matter of plug and play once the wiring is done, I think I can handle that. The wiring itself would be another issue entirely. Cutting in-wall/ceiling speakers/tablets could be another tricky one for me being inexperienced in that area, but again, I can watch a YouTube vid and follow a few instructions. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdw5510 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Lights switches are swap outs. Controller is IR cables to each device you want to control with IR. Audio out/in is just understanding what you want. Another recommendation is to do just one room, see how it goes and then add over the next few months. This is how I started out and I still add more stuff from time to time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfh Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Talk to ad many local dealers ad you can and ask a lot of questions. The worst thing about C4 is that you are at the mercy of your dealer. If you don't get a good one, you will be miserable. After your initial installation and/or all of the physical work, there are a number of GREAT dealers here that do great work remotely at fair rates (unlike those of my local dealers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMG1199 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 The DIY route is the most extreme way to cut costs. In my opinion, leaving the initial install up to a dealer with likely hundreds of hours of experience is best way, depending on how clean you want your install. I guess I prefer to leave items like prewiring & terminating data/phone/cable, TV install, speaker placement and installation, surround sound, remote temp sensors etc etc. DIY would also require you to coordinate with your builder/designer/architect/electrician the location of all different requirements, something normally your dealer is responsible for in new construction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfh Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 But you need to start out with an idea or general plan. Ask your dealer to improve on it, but relying on them for everything could be dangerous, depending on the dealer. I got a lot of information on equipment capabilies from my dealer, but very little planning. Dealer did not know optimum speaker placement for my theater and, as it turns out, recommended a far more complicated audio system than my requirements warranted. I didnt realize that a number of features I speced from the beginning weren't implemented until after the fact. On the other hand, there were a couple of things I wanted done that I had no solution for that the dealer was able to do. But whatever you do, get a system design on paper before you sign the final contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy.trochez Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Arden, when are you planning on getting your C4 system? PM me if you want info from a remote dealer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NextGenAV Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 The DIY route can save you a lot of money and can be a real pain. If everything works out perfectly and all your connections are correct then it will feel like perfect choice, the minute you need to start fault finding then you could have a different outcome. I recently went to a customer who couldn't get there WiFI working, they bought 6 Ubiquiti APs and to save money bought a 12 port POE switch off ebay ... 48V POE ... oh dear! So he saved money initially ... then had to buy a passive POE switch and 3 new APs, and pay me to install them. I don't like retro-fit lighting if you are doing a new build ... if you can wire it ... WIRE IT, don't fall into the trap that wireless is wonderful, it's not! The dealer should give you a variety of lighting options: whole house lighting, partial and essential is what I call them. I'm in the UK but a ballpark figure for what your looking for would be approx £20k - £30k over here. I approach every install by looking at what the customer needs from there system. If they want a 5.1 room that is for casual viewing and not the full cinema experience then I'm not going to quote a £2k Anthem AVR, Stick in a £500 AVR ... which can be upgraded. PM me with your house design and I will have a look at it (with realistic costs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMHarman Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 3400 sq ft home; Security w door monitor, 2-3 tablets (one built in), control of 2 central AC, one mini-split (optional), super basic lighting scenes (not really sure what we would want/use yet), at least 6 zones of a/v with one 5.1 setup. As it's a new house, I need networking solution, I'm guessing an WAP or two, speakers, tv's... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Few thoughts. Is this sticker shock because all this is on one bill or sticker shock because of the size. What here is must have vs like to have Also, have you backed out the duplicative costs from your GC invoice. If you decide the security system as configured is an essential and are getting a similar cost quote elsewhere then that's the number. Make sure the panel is C4 friendly. Cameras and DVR get expensive. 3 c4 tablets. That's the best part of 3k. How about a cable drop and exclusion or deciding If older tablets / android / ipad also do the job. 6 zones of av. How? Distributed or dedicated sources per location. Especially with the challenges of 4k60 HDR distribution you could put sources locally and backfeed audio to the rack if you have room speakers, or just use the TV speakers in some rooms. In the US a Tivo mini and roku behind each TV is cheaper than a matrix. Good networking is invaluable. For life and for C4. 2 wap over 3400 ft. You in the woods? Else that sounds light. You can also get the gc to estimate for the lv cable or run it yourself with a couple of buddies but that is your weekends and vacation time (and theirs) Also your GC has light switches in their quote. For each c4 one you install back out one of theirs. And panellists. This may well appeal in a new build. Less hv cable to run and less wall warts. Different costs not lesser costs. Hvac, make sure it is easy to integrate, especially the split. Some have published control specs others your dealer is spending hours reverse engineering, or did before and you are paying for that expertise. That's the big kicker. They have done this before. You have not. You can change the oil on your car but do you or do you pay someone with the tools and facilities and experience. Hey folks. Meeting with local c4 dealers and receiving a little sticker shock. I wondered what others have done to help lower costs during the initial install. Any pointers? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK1 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Tell us about your technical skill set. Can you take care of your network setup, for example? This will determine how DIY you can go. One approach is to get a local dealer to install a basic system with little or no setup, perhaps control of 1 x TV room, but sized appropriately to support your entire house. Then go "remote" and source the rest of the equipment yourself. It's going to require a decent amount of your time and effort. Some homeowners prefer to work on their own systems progressively and have the technical skillsets to do so, particularly networking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arden.ballard Posted January 1, 2017 Author Share Posted January 1, 2017 2 hours ago, NextGenAV said: if you can wire it ... WIRE IT, I definitely agree here; regardless on how big my initial build will be, I'll spend more $ up front to make sure I'm wiring for the vision down the line. 2 hours ago, NextGenAV said: what your looking for would be approx £20k - £30k over here. well, you're the cheapest of my bids thus far! (by about 10k!) haha I'll PM you with the plan! would love all the input I can get. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMHarman Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Then go "remote" and source the rest of the equipment yourself. It's going to require a decent amount of your time and effort. Some homeowners prefer to work on their own systems progressively and have the technical skillsets to do so, particularly networking. One thing else to consider with this is the financing. Do it all with the build and bake into the mortgage, especially applicable for lighting etc, or later where it is coming out of savings money / paycheck. Another consider is the total build cost. 5-10% of that including networking and lighting would not be unreasonable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arden.ballard Posted January 1, 2017 Author Share Posted January 1, 2017 1 hour ago, SMHarman said: s this sticker shock because all this is on one bill or sticker shock because of the size. Mostly the 1 bill, but you're right--we will be reducing costs here and there with reducing light switches, installs, etc elsewhere. I did not consider that. 1 hour ago, SMHarman said: They have done this before. You have not. You can change the oil on your car but do you or do you pay someone with the tools and facilities and experience. Exactly. I made an oath to myself after having a few bad experiences that I need to remember that "you get what you pay for" in most cases. I'm looking for the best (reasonable) price, but I don't want to shoot myself in the foot either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arden.ballard Posted January 1, 2017 Author Share Posted January 1, 2017 27 minutes ago, AK1 said: Tell us about your technical skill set. Can you take care of your network setup, for example? This will determine how DIY you can go. well, I learned how to set up my printer via IP the other day! I was pretty impressed with myself... ha I work in medicine; I can read and follow directions, but I'm in no way a programmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 3 minutes ago, arden.ballard said: Mostly the 1 bill, but you're right--we will be reducing costs here and there with reducing light switches, installs, etc elsewhere. I did not consider that. Exactly. I made an oath to myself after having a few bad experiences that I need to remember that "you get what you pay for" in most cases. I'm looking for the best (reasonable) price, but I don't want to shoot myself in the foot either. Wire to the extreme, then get a system installed with what you want NOW at LEAST. Adding on over time, at least as long as the wiring is in place, is one of the best assets of C4. If A/V is what you want, find a dealer that you feel comfortable with to get a good basic system is installed. Investing in the right video switch is a must (Just Add Power is a good option here, as it allows starting small and expanding over time). Then go with the C4 audio matrix and some form of 'dumb' amp that fits your initial zones, that makes expanding on that easier later on. Lighting, unless you're going for panalised, is the easiest to to expand on later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arden.ballard Posted January 1, 2017 Author Share Posted January 1, 2017 Have you, as dealers, ever sat down with the builders before the build to discuss a game plan for the installation? My builder/GC has not installed (or heard of) this system previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy.trochez Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 The only thing that has to be discussed with the builder is the wiring, the system being installed is irrelevant to the builder. But before a dealer talks to the builder, the system has to be discussed with the customer. Some builders will wire the house following the dealer instructions, some won't. Dealer has to come in before Sheetrock goes up to do the wiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NextGenAV Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 I would normally interact with the architect and main contractor. If the electricians are doing the first fix then I will give them a cable schedule for my stuff, but I keep an eye on there installation. I don't know if I'm a bit different from other installers as I take over the lighting install after the lighting runs are back at the panels, so I terminate and commission them instead of the electrician. There are very few electricians who understand controlled lighting in the UK, maybe more in the US I don't know. On smaller jobs I will runs the cables myself, by smaller I mean something the size of a 3 bed detached new build. Your builder won't need to know what control system is going in, as long as he keeps your installer up to date and part of the loop. Unfortunately some builders see us as a pain rather than just another site trade. As far as other trades are concerned I get to know them very early on so I know what they are installing and make sure I can control it if necessary. Find an installer who has the ability to talk to other trades and understand and appreciate there part of the job, too many AV guys are good at there job but have zero social skills. Got your PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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