jfh Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 7 minutes ago, msgreenf said: you actually haven't gotten 1 statement from Control4...so no one else but them can answer this....No one else can. Everything in this thread is pointless. Call C4 corp office, write them email, snailmail, etc. Contact them. They can make the change, not one person on this site can I have tried. Can't get through to anyone on the phone. Emails have gone unanswered. No response to a letter sent to corporate. If anyone has contact info for someone that would actually respond, please PM me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Just now, jfh said: I have tried. Can't get through to anyone on the phone. Emails have gone unanswered. No response to a letter sent to corporate. If anyone has contact info for someone that would actually respond, please PM me. but arguing here about it ain't gonna change anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 18 minutes ago, jfh said: It's not far fetched at all. Actions speak louder than words. Nothing C4 has done contradict my statement at all. There is absolutely no evidence that they care about the issues and concerns of their actual customers. We are just annoyances needed to support the dealers. If there was a valid, logical reason as to why the only people that can have access to Pro are those that commit to sell $x thousands of high margin hardware a year then C4 would have found a way to make that known. If they cared about a small subset of customers that would likely drive their business with referrals more than most dealers could ever do, there would be a solution. That the only (unofficial) statement we have is essentially "that's the way it is" simply proves my point - when you can't defend a poor model just deflect or redirect the conversation or tell those with concerns that they just don't understand. The answer from Control4 will be that while the system is easy for the homeowner to use, the process of integrating all the different systems together into one easy interface can be a complex task. To provide the optimal experience for the homeowner, Control4 is only to be installed by a trained professional. And they would not be wrong with that answer, but that answer could be applied to any task; plumbing, electrical, painting, millwork, home networking, etc. The real answer is a couple of reasons; if they offered it to homeowner, dealers would be upset and start leaving for another company that sold exclusively to dealers. Having control of that software allows them to know that if someone wants service on their system they have to go through them. Second, is that keeping the software away everyone makes sure that people who are not capable of programming the system are not able to bash the system to other people about how complex it is. And last, it sort of makes sure that the product stays at the luxury end of the spectrum. I understand these reasons but I still think they could have a program for users to gain access the same way Lutron has done it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 30 minutes ago, jfh said: It's not far fetched at all. Actions speak louder than words. Nothing C4 has done contradict my statement at all. There is absolutely no evidence that they care about the issues and concerns of their actual customers. We are just annoyances needed to support the dealers. If there was a valid, logical reason as to why the only people that can have access to Pro are those that commit to sell $x thousands of high margin hardware a year then C4 would have found a way to make that known. If they cared about a small subset of customers that would likely drive their business with referrals more than most dealers could ever do, there would be a solution. That the only (unofficial) statement we have is essentially "that's the way it is" simply proves my point - when you can't defend a poor model just deflect or redirect the conversation or tell those with concerns that they just don't understand. ~shrug~ Again, you assume a whole lot in here, not to mention make statements without substance. I'm NOT arguing one side or another, I'm arguing that all this is nothing more than a rant. You say that C4 doesn't have good reasons to go one direction, yet you throw up hyperbolas as an argument to go another way - 'yelling' the same argument (whether it holds ground or not is beside the point) over and over, louder and louder doesn't make it 'right' (nor 'wrong'). It just states that you disagree. That's perfectly fine - but it doesn't mean you're 'right'. Quote If there was a valid, logical reason as to why the only people that can have access to Pro are those that commit to sell $x thousands Heck, you could say that IS a valid logical reason. It's called capitalism son. Now, understand that I'm not saying it's a good reason or not - Just pointing this one out as an example that it's a pointless circle of arguments. Simply put, you can be on one side of the playing field, or the other. But don't blind yourself to the point that you miss that the vast majority of people are simply ON that field, playing the game and having a good time doing so. Instead of yelling from the side line, perhaps it's better to just enjoy the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 50 minutes ago, therockhr said: That's not the point. The point is that they listened to the customers who said just having the web was not enough. No the point of the quoted message was that if Apple hadn't listened about it being nice if there were apps....but there were apps well before iPhone. Not to mention there WAS more than just 'the web'. Ever heard of a phone call? It's something phones USED to be pretty good at Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koxkp Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I'll try to stay neutral as arguing won't do anything. I think someone already hit it on the head, if the market changes where they need more market share for this segment they will reconsider. It is a publicly funded company and they will do what works. CES is going on now and the HA tech is all booming buzzwords around there so I think we'll find out where the market goes in the next couple years and decide the fate of Pro/HE I have HE and you can do a lot with it. There are good/bad dealers out there that can make or break the whole system/C4 experience. I wouldn't mind if they keep going in the direction to add more to HE...things like calling a dealer to add a dimmers or switch to the project seems a little much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koxkp Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Also, even with all this talk on the forum I'm curious what percent of the people here makeup the total of C4 users. We're on the forum because we want to tinker. I feel like we are the minority. Most high end users will have the security/convenience of the dealer to setup their system if they don't want to worry about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Just now, koxkp said: Also, even with all this talk on the forum I'm curious what percent of the people here makeup the total of C4 users. We're on the forum because we want to tinker. I feel like we are the minority. Most high end users will have the security/convenience of the dealer to setup their system if they don't want to worry about it. this forum is around ~300 active users of over a few million installed homes, not significant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfh Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 20 minutes ago, msgreenf said: but arguing here about it ain't gonna change anything... Agreed. But if those unhappy with the status quo keep quiet, there is no hope for change because C4 will take silence as "everyone's happy". Until C4 shows me that they care about these concerns, the only reasonable conclusion is to assume they don't. And I know I'm only the tip of the iceberg. The vast percentage of those that agree with my position will say nothing and resign themselves to accepting that nothing will change and that's exactly what C4 is counting on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 1 minute ago, jfh said: But if those unhappy with the status quo keep quiet, there is no hope for change because C4 will take silence as "everyone's happy". and that's why I recommended contacting them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koxkp Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Just now, msgreenf said: this forum is around ~300 active users of over a few million installed homes, not significant That was kind of my point, if even all 300 users on here begged and received Pro because they want to tinker. The remaining millions might be content with the dealer model and not worried about it. Seems insignificant as a whole, but a big deal to the folks on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 8 minutes ago, Cyknight said: No the point of the quoted message was that if Apple hadn't listened about it being nice if there were apps....but there were apps well before iPhone. Not to mention there WAS more than just 'the web'. Ever heard of a phone call? It's something phones USED to be pretty good at Go back and read my post; I said USER BUILT APPS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfh Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, msgreenf said: this forum is around ~300 active users of over a few million installed homes, not significant Right. Which makes C4's paranoia about not letting a few hundred license Pro even more petty. A few hundred non-dealers with a Pro license would somehow be a threat to the business model? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Just now, jfh said: C4's paranoia how do you know it's paranoia? that's an assumption. You have never gotten a statement from them on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Just now, therockhr said: Go back and read my post; I said USER BUILT APPS Grand - still untrue as any user could sign up to be an app developer for PalmOS, just like you can now. They mad e it EASIER - but they didn't 'invent' it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfh Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 3 minutes ago, msgreenf said: and that's why I recommended contacting them... And I told you I have tried and gotten no response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Just now, jfh said: And I told you I have tried and gotten no response. i understand the loop we are in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 1 minute ago, jfh said: Right. Which makes C4's paranoia about not letting a few hundred license Pro even more petty. A few hundred non-dealers with a Pro license would somehow be a threat to the business model? And around and around we go. Want me to repeat the statement made time and time again? You CANNOT 'just' give it to a few hundred - doesn't work that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfh Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Just now, msgreenf said: how do you know it's paranoia? that's an assumption. You have never gotten a statement from them on it Because no one from corporate has ever had the courtesy to respond ... "Paranoia" was perhaps an unfair word choice. But without any response from C4, we can only guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Just now, Cyknight said: Grand - still untrue as any user could sign up to be an app developer for PalmOS, just like you can now. They mad e it EASIER - but they didn't 'invent' it. Where did I say they invented the smartphone? I only mentioned Apple had a smartphone that users wanted to be able to install user built apps on. No mention of any other phone or who built what first. I used this as an example to show how a company had a direction and the users wanted something different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 set timer 6 months : Review thread; no progress or in Lua C4:AddTimer("progress", 6, "Months") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfh Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 8 minutes ago, Cyknight said: And around and around we go. Want me to repeat the statement made time and time again? You CANNOT 'just' give it to a few hundred - doesn't work that way. License Pro to anyone that completes the C4 sponsored/certified training. Nothing more. Don't even have to change the existing infrastructure - C4 creates a pseudo-dealer that has all the non-dealer licensees and the authentication model works as it does today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koxkp Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 We can only assume Control4 corporate knows more than we do on market share and other factors. If they're keeping it dealer only to save the dealers, but lost to the Apple, Comcast, Google's out there it won't matter if they're out of business. There are lots of new players getting into this space, not all direct competitors, but it will be interesting to see where things go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 3 minutes ago, jfh said: License Pro to anyone that completes the C4 sponsored/certified training. Nothing more. Don't even have to change the existing infrastructure - C4 creates a pseudo-dealer that has all the non-dealer licensees and the authentication model works as it does today. So...create this whole setup, and offer it only to those one here? Again you simple cannot do that. Or create this to support potentially thousands and thousands of people, flooding their infrastructure with new, untrained people? Defeating the whole point of 'a few' It's still the same old argument going around and around.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 11 minutes ago, therockhr said: Where did I say they invented the smartphone? I only mentioned Apple had a smartphone that users wanted to be able to install user built apps on. No mention of any other phone or who built what first. I used this as an example to show how a company had a direction and the users wanted something different. It would be an example of a company seeing something the (general) market didn't KNOW they wanted and created a market for it - very commendable mind you - not an argument changing it's course because their users wanted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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