New construction advice CBUS vs C4

[beachlife]

Hi everyone, I'm brand new so please excuse my ignorance. I've been searching through this forum and a lot of resources online. Apologies if my newbie questions have already been answered somewhere else - perhaps direct me there.  

About to start on a brand new construction of a home in Australia. Was ready to include the Schneider Electric CBUS system and Wiser control as the home automation solution specification. But then I started doing some of my of own research and it appeared that the Schneider CBUS with Wiser control system and user software generally hasn't received a lot of love from Schneider and Control4 might better suit the outcomes I am trying to achieve. From my online research it also appeared that Control4 has a lot of user focussed online resources and information compared to CBUS.  

From an outcome perspective here is what I'm trying to achieve with a system:

- Automated lighting control and scenes. There are a lot of lights inside and also outside and couldn't possibly control each individually 

- Electronic lock control for the external entry doors and a video intercom at the main entry

- Basic media integration. I use an appletv to stream most media. If possible also the ability to make use of an enormous library of MP3s which are stored locally. Simple multi-room audio. Don't require multi-room video

- Blind/shade control 

- Specifying a Mitsubishi VRF HVAC system. Mitsubishi has a pretty good wifi control app. A bonus but not essential would be integration of the HVAC with the main automation control system

- Integration with the security system. Ness M1 with Hikvision IP cameras is what was recommended but can look at alternatives if better integration

- Integration with keypad and RFID access control on the external doors

- Away/Home features

- Remote viewing of camera and security event alerts

- User adjustable settings. Not the whole thing but little tweaks to lighting scenes for example or which physical buttons control what

- Price is a secondary consideration. Reliability and user friendliness rank first 

- Home will otherwise be wired with Unify switches and access points

Next step I will speak with a Control4 dealer and get a specific proposal. But I thought it might be good to check with this community first for their biased (or hopefully somewhat unbiased) views on the good/bad/ugly of C4 and in particular why they chose it over CBUS. Or perhaps why someone chose CBUS over C4 if they are on this forum. Of course not wanting to start any arguments. Just a newbie looking for some advice. 

Thanks in advance. And again sorry if this has already been answered a 1000 times before. Point me toward those answers and I'll leave everyone alone. 

 

 

 

 

[AK1]

CBUS seems to have a strong following in Australia. It is a very good lighting / keypad solution. However, as a whole home automation system with your outcomes in mind, it won't come remotely close to what you want to achieve. If you are enamoured with CBUs as a lighting / keypad platform, then you could always integrate that aspect of it into a whole-home Control4 solution. 

[beachlife]

Hi AK1, not enamoured with CBUS. But yes it does have a big following in Australia and a lot of installers that are recommending it as the ONLY system to use. Hence why I came here to get another perspective before heading in a particular direction. Want to put in place the appropriate solution to achieve the desired outcomes. One option as you suggested is the CBUS lighting and wall plates and wiring etc and all interfaced to a C4 controller. Although I was concerned whether that leaves me in a situation in the future where Schneider tech says it is a problem with the C4 and C4 tech say it is a problem with the CBUS. Any thoughts on that mix and match issue?

[AK1]

it's really not a legitimate comparison at all to compare C-BUS and Control4. It would be like trying to compare Lutron and Control4 in North America as whole-home automation platforms. 

It's ben a while since I have looked at C-BUS and Control4 integration, but a "C-BUS"  search at https://drivers.control4.com/solr/drivers/browse? shows contemporary drivers for lighting, shades etc.

I think this is purely a lighting decision - not a Control4 vs C-BUS decision.  if you decide you  want C-BUS for lighting / keypads like so many Aussies, then integrate with Control4. If the Control4 lighting is acceptable to you,  you will save integration time and money.

[RyanE]

I was concerned you weren't going to find anyone familiar with CBUS.

Good on ya, AK1.

RyanE

[Wattsup]

I'm in NZ and have CBus lighting interfaced with control4. 

Also happen to be an electrician, cbus approved installer and control 4 tech ( in my last job). If it's just lighting then cbus will be rock solid and as a product it's been around for 30 years. Imho the moment you want to add AV devices, security systems etc it becomes very limited and expensive.

So far as integration goes it's simple; CBus installer does their programming then passes a list with every light/switch and the group address of each to the control4 integrator who will installer either rs232 communications or IP interface - then installs drivers and binds each one to the group address of each light.

Suggest you look for a control4 dealer who also does cbus and you shouldn't have an issue. 

I personally prefer cbus lighting because-

if power fails all lights will return to the last state when power is restored without any intervention

if you move house you can leave the cbus stand alone and take control4 to your new home 

 

[beachlife]

Thank you AK1 and also Wattsup. Very helpful information. CBUS does seem very solid and has the history and support in Australia for lighting. That's good advice too on a dealer who does both.

[EVO924]

Hey guys, as an approved Cbus installer and a Control4 integrator i would recommend the two together, Cbus gives a very clean and hardy lighting control system and then the Control4 comes in to play as the interface but also allows extras like home media, home audio, security, locks etc. and all of this is in the one app. We have a couple of big hybrid jobs on the go currently and from our point of view finding a company that does it all is recommended as information can be lost in transmission, we all love Chinese whispers right?. good luck with your build it will be a blast. 

[beachlife]

Hey Evo924, I went with CBUS with Savant on top. Plus Amazon Alexa for voice control. Been a long build. Handover in a few weeks. Cheers Paul 

[AK1]

If the primary goal is whole home automation, then the selection of the lighting subsystem should not drive the entire decision. While CBUS is an excellent LIGHTING platform, as you point out you are going to have to live with integration vs direct, native support. In your research, have you seen any substantive differences between CBUS and Control4 lighting solutions? Is there a good reason NOT to go with native Control4 lighting rather than integration? If there's one part of your smart home system you want to be bullet-proof, it's the lighting.

[Mark HT]

On 7/12/2020 at 11:36 PM, AK1 said:

If there's one part of your smart home system you want to be bullet-proof, it's the lighting.

Good reason to choose C-Bus.

[AK1]

Hardly, while it may be a great lighting system,  I said "smart home system" - not a standalone lighting system with minimal external integrations. 

2 minutes ago, Mark HT said:

Good reason to choose C-Bus.

 

[Mark HT]

With a C-Bus Automation Controller it can do anything C4 can.

 

Edit: A lot more customisable though. The controller is based off a LogicMachine product and quite powerful.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Mark HT

[Pounce]

14 minutes ago, Mark HT said:

With a C-Bus Automation Controller it can do anything C4 can.

 

Edit: A lot more customisable though. The controller is based off a LogicMachine product and quite powerful.

Clearly you are here trolling.

[Mark HT]

1 hour ago, Pounce said:

Clearly you are here trolling.

Not at all. I'm here because I want 2 nice remotes to control my AV gear and like the NEEO hardware. (If they added play-pause-stop and backlight to the physical buttons...)

Just thought I should point out some facts about C-Bus and it's capabilities whrn it comes to automation.

[Pounce]

4 minutes ago, Mark HT said:

Just thought I should point out some facts about C-Bus and it's capabilities whrn it comes to automation.

Are you on the CBUS forums?

[Mark HT]

Yes

[AK1]

I am missing the point. C-BUS is an excellent stand-alone lighting system. It apparently now has some automation capabilities. The first page of Google search results revealed next to no useful information. So I tried a search for CBUS automation Samsung TV driver and got back nothing. The same search but for Control4 returns a wealth of useful links.  I remain completely sceptical in the absence of some useful information how "With a C-Bus Automation Controller it can do anything C4 can."

A far more typical approach with C-BUS would be as @EVO924 said "Cbus gives a very clean and hardy lighting control system and then the Control4 comes in to play as the interface but also allows extras like home media, home audio, security, locks etc. and all of this is in the one app".

And to further the confusion @Mark HT has 2 x Neeo remotes to control his AV?  

I really don't see how @Mark HT 's overly simplistic red herrings are helping OP make an informed decision about the design of his lighting and whole home automation.

 

[RyanE]

Mark HT has 5 posts, 4 of them in this thread.

I don't think he's an expert in what Control4 can do and how it compares or integrates with a CBUS solution.

RyanE

 

[Mark HT]

1 hour ago, AK1 said:

I am missing the point. C-BUS is an excellent stand-alone lighting system. It apparently now has some automation capabilities. The first page of Google search results revealed next to no useful information. So I tried a search for CBUS automation Samsung TV driver and got back nothing. The same search but for Control4 returns a wealth of useful links.  I remain completely sceptical in the absence of some useful information how "With a C-Bus Automation Controller it can do anything C4 can."

A far more typical approach with C-BUS would be as @EVO924 said "Cbus gives a very clean and hardy lighting control system and then the Control4 comes in to play as the interface but also allows extras like home media, home audio, security, locks etc. and all of this is in the one app".

And to further the confusion @Mark HT has 2 x Neeo remotes to control his AV?  

I really don't see how @Mark HT 's overly simplistic red herrings are helping OP make an informed decision about the design of his lighting and whole home automation.

 

Firstly, I should point out I'm an end user. I don't make money from any of these systems and am here to find out if C4 can work for me. But... You said "Hardly, while it may be a great lighting system,  I said "smart home system" - not a standalone lighting system with minimal external integrations."  Which is very misleading and I thought it were only fair to point out the fact that C-Bus is very capable of being used as  a full automation system. Just because YOU need a "driver" to make something work, doesn't mean it's not possible without a "driver". It is no problem at all to control home media, security, locks, a Samsung TV , etc. all in one "app". Now, I'm not suggesting it's the be all and end all for home automation, just that it's VERY capable (in the right hands at least...) 

Did I say I have 2 x NEEO remotes? What are you confused about? I actually have 1 original NEEO remote from before the C4 buyout and I really like it. That's what lead me to look into C4.

What do you mean by overly simplistic red herring? You are obviously taking my comment about C-Bus as a slight against C4 and hence a personal insult (are you the founder or something?) Oh and you needn't worry about helping the OP. He has probably done more research than me and ended up going with C-Bus and Savant...

Seriously, what upsets you so much about hearing C-Bus is more capable than you thought? I don't see how that would cause a problem for you? 

 

 

[Mark HT]

2 hours ago, RyanE said:

Mark HT has 5 posts, 4 of them in this thread.

I don't think he's an expert in what Control4 can do and how it compares or integrates with a CBUS solution.

RyanE

 

I know way more about C4 than AK1 knows about C-Bus.

[AK1]

8 hours ago, Mark HT said:

I know way more about C4 than AK1 knows about C-Bus.

That may well be true -) BUT so far you have made blanket assertions in overly simplistic sentences without any backup or reference material. I would be happy to learn more about C-BUS automation versus plain old C-BUS lighting and attempted to do so online without success. If you're going to come on to a board focused on Control4 and tout an automation platform that very few people here have heard of, then you're going to have to do a much better job at explaining why C-BUS automation can do everything Control4 can. For example, please explain with C-BUS automation how I can control via IP popular modern smart televisions such as Sony, LG and Samsung - that would be a good start.

[Pounce]

8 hours ago, Mark HT said:

I know way more about C4 than AK1 knows about C-Bus.

On the internet nobody cares. On a forum people care about how you contribute and participate.

For example, your very first post on this forum was to take a jab at C4 complete with emoticon.

 

[Mark HT]

Tried to post some links but the forum accused me of being a spambot  thought you guys might get a kick out of that

[Pounce]

11 minutes ago, Mark HT said:

Tried to post some links but the forum accused me of being a spambot  thought you guys might get a kick out of that

It would have been more of a kick if you had followed that sentence with something that contributes to the thread.