New construction advice CBUS vs C4

[alanchow]

12 hours ago, AK1 said:

That may well be true -) BUT so far you have made blanket assertions in overly simplistic sentences without any backup or reference material. I would be happy to learn more about C-BUS automation versus plain old C-BUS lighting and attempted to do so online without success. If you're going to come on to a board focused on Control4 and tout an automation platform that very few people here have heard of, then you're going to have to do a much better job at explaining why C-BUS automation can do everything Control4 can. For example, please explain with C-BUS automation how I can control via IP popular modern smart televisions such as Sony, LG and Samsung - that would be a good start.

You can't do that with Cbus which is why many people utilise Cbus for base architecture and then add on a system like Control4 on top.

Having said that Schneider was in the process of introducing another Lua based layer on top of Cbus to act as a gateway.  They reached out to us about a year or so ago to ask us to develop for their platform.

This will provide an additional layer which will make it a bit more expandable.

[Cyknight]

WHY are we having a CBUS discussion on a 2 year old tread.....

[Mark HT]

6 hours ago, Pounce said:

It would have been more of a kick if you had followed that sentence with something that contributes to the thread.

Thanks for your contribution. Good example 

[Mark HT]

4 hours ago, alanchow said:

You can't do that with Cbus 

Yes you can 

Example of IP control for Sony TV: https://forum.logicmachine.net/showthread.php?tid=2476&pid=15783

Example of IP to IR control of Sony TV (by yours truly): https://www.cbusforums.com/threads/ir-blaster-for-shac-nac-success-using-global-cache-ip2ir.10173/

[alanchow]

8 minutes ago, Mark HT said:

Yes you can 

Example for Sony TV: https://forum.logicmachine.net/showthread.php?tid=2476&pid=15783

You just linked us to another control system called logicmachine....

[Mark HT]

On 7/14/2020 at 9:39 AM, Mark HT said:

The controller is based off a LogicMachine product and quite powerful.

 

[Mark HT]

3 hours ago, Cyknight said:

WHY are we having a CBUS discussion on a 2 year old tread.....

Because I was searching for info about C4 with NEEO to control Trinnov Altitude 16's when I saw a very misleading statement by AK-1.

Say, for example you visited a C-Bus forum and read a comment saying "Hardly, while C4 may be a great universal remote,  I said "smart home system" - not a standalone universal remote with minimal external integrations" You would firstly wonder why someone with obviously no idea about C4 would make such a comment, then probably feel obliged to set the record straight.

[Köhler Medientechnik]

1 hour ago, Mark HT said:

The controller is based off a LogicMachine product and quite powerful.

Well, but this has nothing to do with Cbus. It looks to me that Logicmachine is just a control system sitting on top of different sub systems (like CBus, KNX, Loxone, 1-Wire, BACnet, etc.).

Similar to Control4, Crestron, RTI, etc.

So the functionality to control e.g. a Sony TV lies in the Logicmachine system, not in CBus.
I think this is probably where the confusion comes from.

 

EDIT: Oh, i´ve just found a (the)  "native" C-Bus automation controller. So no need to link to Logicmachine. => https://www.clipsal.com/products/detail?CatNo=5500NAC&tab-document-1=0 

[Mark HT]

16 minutes ago, Köhler Medientechnik said:

Well, but this has nothing to do with Cbus.

The controller is C-Bus, but it is based to some degree on a Logicmachine product. Enough that any LUA scripts for Logicmachine will work with minimal changes:

https://www.clipsal.com/products/detail?CatNo=5500NAC&tab-document-1=0

C-Bus is a range of products, not just a protocol like BACNet.

https://www.clipsal.com/products/c-bus-control-and-management-system

[Köhler Medientechnik]

2 minutes ago, Mark HT said:

The controller is C-Bus, but it is based to some degree on a Logicmachine product. Enough that any LUA scripts for Logicmachine will work with minimal changes:

https://www.clipsal.com/products/detail?CatNo=5500NAC&tab-document-1=0

Ah, exactly the controller i just found myself  
So i guess this is the interesting part: "it is based to some degree on a Logicmachine product". Without that piece of information, your link was actually "just a link to another control system called logicmachine...." like @alanchow stated.

[Mark HT]

On 7/14/2020 at 9:39 AM, Mark HT said:

With a C-Bus Automation Controller it can do anything C4 can.

 

Edit: A lot more customisable though. The controller is based off a LogicMachine product and quite powerful.

Yes, but I already stated that fact in a previuos post. Then requoted it again. And again now.

[Köhler Medientechnik]

9 minutes ago, Mark HT said:

Yes, but I already stated that fact in a previuos post. Then requoted it again. And again now.

True.

[AK1]

6 hours ago, Mark HT said:

Yes you can 

Example of IP control for Sony TV: https://forum.logicmachine.net/showthread.php?tid=2476&pid=15783

Example of IP to IR control of Sony TV (by yours truly): https://www.cbusforums.com/threads/ir-blaster-for-shac-nac-success-using-global-cache-ip2ir.10173/

Ah after 8 posts without any substance we have some references..

[Cyknight]

7 hours ago, Mark HT said:

Because I was searching for info about C4 with NEEO to control Trinnov Altitude 16's when I saw a very misleading statement by AK-1.

Say, for example you visited a C-Bus forum and read a comment saying "Hardly, while C4 may be a great universal remote,  I said "smart home system" - not a standalone universal remote with minimal external integrations" You would firstly wonder why someone with obviously no idea about C4 would make such a comment, then probably feel obliged to set the record straight.

Not really, not on a two year old thread - not to mention that I'd be interested to know if two years ago that information WAS indeed incorrect.

 

Oh by the way:

6 hours ago, Mark HT said:

C-Bus is a range of products, not just a protocol like BACNet.

Quote

C-Bus is a communications protocol based on a seven layer OSI model for home and building automation that can handle cable lengths up to 1000 metres using Cat-5 cable

Yes it is a protocol - there's just a lot of products that use it and controlers available designed for it. Very much like BACNet, or more accurately like Z-Wave, ZigBee, X10, DMX, etc.

There I felt obliged to set the record straight.

[msgreenf]

What is the point of this thread?

[Cyknight]

Fight boredom

56 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

What is the point of this thread?

 

[Pounce]

56 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

What is the point of this thread?

It had a point, but then we have people trolling for business and then another boomer desperately trying to back up some naive comments. Maybe a little troll baiting on the side.

[RyanE]

5 hours ago, Cyknight said:

Fight boredom

It's not working.

RyanE

[beachlife]

Maybe as the OP I’ll try and end this thread. I think everyone here is correct and I’m not sure why everyone is arguing so much. The chaotic and fragile world we live today and more than ever there are so many bigger issues out there we could all spend our energy.
 

When I started this thread 2 years ago I was at the beginning of my automation journey. I’m in Australia and was already down a path using  Schneider Electric Clipsal CBUS for the lighting backbone. Why - I really like their switch plates especially their eDLTs. Also it’s hard to argue against it being a mature and robust wired solution and this was a new build allowing physical cabling. It has also been around forever and has great local support in Australia. Was there a better choice for the backbone - maybe. But I was already on this path.

 

Before I started this thread and some on other specialist forums seeking advice I was suggested to only use CBUS for automation. And while Schneider Electric Clipsal CBUS does have various automation controllers it seemed to me that they haven’t invested the $s to make a complete user friendly automation interface. I’ve got their NAC as part of my system and it serves a purpose in the backend. But their Wiser product feels incomplete to me. They also bought Push Controls a few years ago and that’s been “coming soon” with a new version forever. 2 years later and it seems the products are both no further along in development. Maybe I’m wrong. 

 

So I think everyone here in this thread is correct. CBUS I think can do it all but from a UI perspective something like Control4 on top makes it much better for me. That’s my personal opinion. 

 

I really wanted a single app interface to bring the different components together. While I don’t mind tinkering myself the system needed to be somewhat “grandma friendly”. From my research and using both Control4 and Savant in person both seemed like really great systems. In the end I went with Savant as that’s the direction my builder and integrator were heading. Control4 would have done the job just as well I think and thank you to this forum for a lot of really useful information and advice. 

 

To close off this thread here is my final system.

1. CBUS for backend lighting, blind control and shutter control. CBUS GPOs, wall switches including eDLTs
2. SE powertags for breaker level energy monitoring 
3. Large PV system and 200kwh battery system with panel level TIGO optimizers/monitoring
4. SE PLC for power management and load shedding
5. CAT8 wired throughout connected to a Ubiquiti Unifi network using the dream machine pro with a fiber wan connection
6. Ness M1. Also used to send a trigger to a fire suppression system based on heat sensor and thermal camera input. The M1 is probably the “oldest” component of the system but again it’s robust and been around a long time was part of the decision
7. 2N access control and electric strikes for all locks including their commander system 
8. Coolmaster for HVAC VRF control
9. AXIS cameras connected to their network DVR
10. A/V I’ve got Sonos throughout, appletvs and a combination of integra receivers and Sonance indoor/outdoor speakers and amplifiers. A motorised projector and screen and otherwise a some gallery style flat panels
11. Amazon Alexa in ceiling locations. Will be interesting to see how that one works with everything else 
12. Miele WiFi applicances. This one I do think was likely a waste of money 

 

Over the top - yes. The best out there - that’s personal opinion but probably not. Will it work - I hope so.  Will I need degrees in electrical engineering and software development to operate - hopefully not. Would I do it differently next time - almost definitely.

 

Thank you again to this forum for all the help and advice. I spent hours reading material on this forum. CBUS can do automation. Systems like Savant and Control4 can do it better from a user experience in my humble personal opinion. Control4 is a great system and would have worked for me even though it’s not what I finally used. I might use it next time. 

I hope this thread might help someone in the future thinking of doing a complete over the top system. Maybe it doesn’t. 

 

Over and out.