Insteon Integration with C4 via ISY

[TomOnTech]

Hi all,

New to the forum. I'm working with a local dealer to prepare to outfit my home with a Control4 setup, and I'm leaning towards using Insteon lighting. The sales rep from my dealer was pushing hard on using C4 lights, but after talking with one of their installers to review the technical architecture, we were able to find that Insteon publishes a flowchart of the integration with C4 at https://www.insteon.com/integration#c4. The Domaudeo Insteon V2 driver at HouseLogix that Insteon links to mentions the Powerline modem, but nothing specific about the ISY, and I want to make sure I understand how to configure the ISY so I can work with my dealer to integrate the lighting into C4.

Does anyone have any experience with this that can help me understand what pieces should be done in the ISY and what pieces will be done in the C4 system?

Thanks in advance!

[dcovach]

2 minutes ago, TomOnTech said:

Hi all,

New to the forum. I'm working with a local dealer to prepare to outfit my home with a Control4 setup, and I'm leaning towards using Insteon lighting. The sales rep from my dealer was pushing hard on using C4 lights, but after talking with one of their installers to review the technical architecture, we were able to find that Insteon publishes a flowchart of the integration with C4 at https://www.insteon.com/integration#c4. The Domaudeo Insteon V2 driver at HouseLogix that Insteon links to mentions the Powerline modem, but nothing specific about the ISY, and I want to make sure I understand how to configure the ISY so I can work with my dealer to integrate the lighting into C4.

Does anyone have any experience with this that can help me understand what pieces should be done in the ISY and what pieces will be done in the C4 system?

Thanks in advance!

Since you're starting from scratch with a new Control4 system, I don't recommend using insteon lighting (although it will work).  I have a client who previously had insteon lighting throughout the home but wanted to use it with a Control4 system, rather than spending even more money on replacing everything.  The performance and reliability of the lighting system by itself wasn't all that impressive to begin with and neither was it impressive with Control4 as there are some limitations with programming.  The next step I'm recommending for this client is to remove all the Insteon keypads and replace with Control4 keypad dimmers.  This will create a much better zigbee mesh while using a much better quality keypad.  Not only do you have to consider the network for Control4 to work properly but also the zigbee mesh.  Control4 lighting serves that purpose too.

[Drex]

I have a fairly extensive Control4 system with over 150 lighting loads, about half of which are Insteon, with  the rest being C4. I'm using the Insteon V2 driver that's available on Houselogix.com along with a 2242-222 Insteon Hub. From a programming standpoint, it takes a bit of work to get both types of devices to coexist, especially in scenes, but once it's correctly configured, the insteon devices are both fast and reliable. If you're going to use a lot of switches, I highly recommend it from a cost standpoint, but be aware that the documentation for the driver, while extensive, is not entirely accurate and intuitive.  

[TomOnTech]

@Drex Thanks for reminding me that I never circled back on this. Instead of the ISY, my integrator and I decided to use the Insteon PLM and do Serial control directly from my EA-3. You're absolutely right, the documentation wasn't quite there. My integrator kept thinking the switch bindings weren't working because when controlling them from Composer Pro, he'd have to click the on / off from the interface twice, but from any other navigator, they work fine. Only thing I've noticed is that if we turn on or off a light from a slave switch, C4 doesn't show accurate status for the light, and then I have to turn the light on and back off again from the app or SR-260 to get the light state in sync. Some of our exterior lighting loads have worked perfectly with scheduled on / off times.

Very impressed with how well it's worked together, to be honest, once we got through the initial integration hurdles.

[C4S]

TomOnTech - or anyone else - is there a good step by step set of instructions to do this efficiently. I would like to be able to control my Insteon devices from C4 - but hate the idea of my installer flailing around for hours trying to figure it out. Thanks!

Scott

[TomOnTech]

22 hours ago, C4Scott said:

TomOnTech - or anyone else - is there a good step by step set of instructions to do this efficiently. I would like to be able to control my Insteon devices from C4 - but hate the idea of my installer flailing around for hours trying to figure it out. Thanks!

Scott

If you had asked a couple months ago, I would've said yes. However, the driver was updated recently to remove linking, so all switch linking needs to be done with HouseLinc and then added to C4. I'm not sure if this makes things harder or easier as I haven't had to add any Insteon loads since my initial install.

The tricky part was getting getting the load and slave switches in sync when controlled via C4. Through Composer they would not be in sync and you'd have to click the On or Off twice to get them to work, but through any other navigator (SR-260, C4 app, EA On-Screen) they work perfectly. I don't know if Houselinc changes this, but we had to add both the load and the slave to each room in the project, and then use the Set button on each switch to identify it to the driver, and then bind the switches together in Composer.

[jackstone]

Ok... first, could you tell me how would you like the driver documentation to be? I've tried my best to explain how to properly setup an Insteon system for Control4 integration, but since I'm the developer of the driver, I may have skipped some steps biased by having spent too much time learning how Insteon work. I would be more than happy to enhance the documentation, just let me know what you consider missing.

 

As for the slave dimmer sync, you WILL NOT be able to achieve perfect sync of ANY slave dimmer/keypad or other... Insteon protocol is too slow and discard any information packet coming from a module if another information is sent at the same time on the network... But the protocol will resend any "command" to a module if this one does not acknowledge reception. That mean Insteon is really reliable for any CONTROL behavior but lack consistency on the feedback/receive side. Even if you use all the native Insteon stuff with the hub and mobile app, it will miss some keypad or slave dimmer feedback. You have to live with that limitation.

Also, all the Link to PLM and auto-bind feature of the driver happen to be very buggy, so we had to remove it from the latest driver release.

The only way to get an insteon system integrate in a reliable way in C4 is to do all the linking and scene in Houselinc and then add the corresponding dimmer or scene driver in Composer. If you forgive the flaky feedback side, you can still get a rock solid system.

As for scene, just don't just C4 Advanced Lighting Agent with Insteon Loads... Build your scene with Houselinc, and use a scene dimmer in composer and then put this scene dimmer into the scene and it will work perfectly (don't expect navigator feedback for those loads though!)

[Blandero]

I was just reading your release papers of the driver. I'm too are desperate to be able to use Insteon with C4 since my client has been using INSTEON and all the house is hooked with INSTEON.  He's using an Isy994i pro , and all scenes and linkage was been made though that, If I unplugged the controller (isy) the links are still there so I'm guessing if I put the PLM directly to a RS232 out of an EA3 , I could get it to work with your driver, am I right? Or I'm missing something?

 

 

[Blandero]

On 12/9/2018 at 4:25 PM, jackstone said:

Ok... first, could you tell me how would you like the driver documentation to be? I've tried my best to explain how to properly setup an Insteon system for Control4 integration, but since I'm the developer of the driver, I may have skipped some steps biased by having spent too much time learning how Insteon work. I would be more than happy to enhance the documentation, just let me know what you consider missing.

 

As for the slave dimmer sync, you WILL NOT be able to achieve perfect sync of ANY slave dimmer/keypad or other... Insteon protocol is too slow and discard any information packet coming from a module if another information is sent at the same time on the network... But the protocol will resend any "command" to a module if this one does not acknowledge reception. That mean Insteon is really reliable for any CONTROL behavior but lack consistency on the feedback/receive side. Even if you use all the native Insteon stuff with the hub and mobile app, it will miss some keypad or slave dimmer feedback. You have to live with that limitation.

Also, all the Link to PLM and auto-bind feature of the driver happen to be very buggy, so we had to remove it from the latest driver release.

The only way to get an insteon system integrate in a reliable way in C4 is to do all the linking and scene in Houselinc and then add the corresponding dimmer or scene driver in Composer. If you forgive the flaky feedback side, you can still get a rock solid system.

As for scene, just don't just C4 Advanced Lighting Agent with Insteon Loads... Build your scene with Houselinc, and use a scene dimmer in composer and then put this scene dimmer into the scene and it will work perfectly (don't expect navigator feedback for those loads though!)

I was just reading your release papers of the driver. I'm too are desperate to be able to use Insteon with C4 since my client has been using INSTEON and all the house is hooked with INSTEON.  He's using an Isy994i pro , and all scenes and linkage was been made though that, If I unplugged the controller (isy) the links are still there so I'm guessing if I put the PLM directly to a RS232 out of an EA3 , I could get it to work with your driver, am I right? Or I'm missing something?

 

[jackstone]

On 2/26/2020 at 11:53 PM, Blandero said:

I was just reading your release papers of the driver. I'm too are desperate to be able to use Insteon with C4 since my client has been using INSTEON and all the house is hooked with INSTEON.  He's using an Isy994i pro , and all scenes and linkage was been made though that, If I unplugged the controller (isy) the links are still there so I'm guessing if I put the PLM directly to a RS232 out of an EA3 , I could get it to work with your driver, am I right? Or I'm missing something?

 

This MAY work, since all links are done INTO the PLM and the ISY is just an interface. But hey, trying will cannot break anything since my driver does not mess with internal links of insteon devices anymore.

 

[ryanmccluretx]

On 12/9/2018 at 4:25 PM, jackstone said:

Ok... first, could you tell me how would you like the driver documentation to be? I've tried my best to explain how to properly setup an Insteon system for Control4 integration, but since I'm the developer of the driver, I may have skipped some steps biased by having spent too much time learning how Insteon work. I would be more than happy to enhance the documentation, just let me know what you consider missing.

 

As for the slave dimmer sync, you WILL NOT be able to achieve perfect sync of ANY slave dimmer/keypad or other... Insteon protocol is too slow and discard any information packet coming from a module if another information is sent at the same time on the network... But the protocol will resend any "command" to a module if this one does not acknowledge reception. That mean Insteon is really reliable for any CONTROL behavior but lack consistency on the feedback/receive side. Even if you use all the native Insteon stuff with the hub and mobile app, it will miss some keypad or slave dimmer feedback. You have to live with that limitation.

Also, all the Link to PLM and auto-bind feature of the driver happen to be very buggy, so we had to remove it from the latest driver release.

The only way to get an insteon system integrate in a reliable way in C4 is to do all the linking and scene in Houselinc and then add the corresponding dimmer or scene driver in Composer. If you forgive the flaky feedback side, you can still get a rock solid system.

As for scene, just don't just C4 Advanced Lighting Agent with Insteon Loads... Build your scene with Houselinc, and use a scene dimmer in composer and then put this scene dimmer into the scene and it will work perfectly (don't expect navigator feedback for those loads though!)

Hey there, trying to integrate a brand new C4 system with my full insteon home - we have existing keypads, dimmers, switches, fanlincs, and a few old icon dimmers/switches. Though most of our equipment is newer (in the last 1-2 years)

Having trouble with the PowerLinc Serial Modem driver just controlling a single scene. We setup scenes 1-3. It will send one successful command but after that everything stops working, I have to unplug the 2413S modem and wait 30s, plug it back in, and try again to send another scene. My integrator told me he's getting an 'error synchronizing ALDB' after we try to send the second scene command. 

Your quote above talks about the scene driver and the dimmer driver only. Should I avoid the powerlinc serial modem driver?

We are running the latest version 

Thanks,
Ryan

[Rich404]

Keeping it simple...I have a new Insteon 2477D dimmer switch that I set the ‘On Level’ to 40% using the ISY interface and PLM.  Using the dimmer switch paddle to turn the light on works perfectly as expected setting lighting level to 40%.  I disconnected the PLM from the ISY and reconnected the PLM to the C4 EA serial connection.  I then added an ‘Activation’ in C4 4sight to turn on the dimmer switch.  The switch successfully turns on but at a level of 100% and not the 40%.  I even tried adding a 4sight ‘Activation’ for setting the ‘On Level’ to 40% but no go.  C4 4Sight will only turn the dimmer switch on at 100% ‘On Level’.  Any help is greatly appreciated!

[Cyknight]

2 hours ago, Rich404 said:

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Honestly? Throw out Insteon.

Not the answer you want, I know.

 

2 hours ago, Rich404 said:

 I then added an ‘Activation’ in C4 4sight to turn on the dimmer switch.  The switch successfully turns on but at a level of 100% and not the 40%

First, what do you mean 'in 4Sight'. 4Sight is a subscription - do you mean When->Then (which requires 4Sight)?

Just trying to make sure we know what you're talking about.

 

In and of itself, this isn't surprising, because you set 40% in ISY, which isn't stored on the device itself, so removing that, then telling C4 to turn it on, C4 just defaults to 100%.

 

2 hours ago, Rich404 said:

 I even tried adding a 4sight ‘Activation’ for setting the ‘On Level’ to 40% but no go.  C4 4Sight will only turn the dimmer switch on at 100% ‘On Level’.  Any help is greatly appreciated!

Wait, let's just clear up what you all mean here.

Firsst of all, drop '4Sight'. That's just not the right term.

 

Are you trying to say that you created programming in When-Then, and are expecting that to change to behaviour of pressing the top button on the physical Insteon dimmer to 40% vs 100%?

If so, that is never going to work. Not sure C4 can even really change the behaviour of a dimmer's button press (reliably) at all (even if it can register the button press, the slow insteon protocol would likely mean the light goes to 100%, then C4 can get it back down to 40%)

 

Anyway, before going too deep into what you maybe can or cannot do, you'll have to clear up the terminology, and clarify what it is you want to achieve.

[Rich404]

I appreciate your comment for sure.  I feel like a parent routinely making peace with between fussing siblings.  Started with the Insteon years ago and worked my way up to the big investment in C4.  Ironically though the Insteon stuff works great when C4 is not involved and the C4 stuff works great for everything other than Insteon.  Sorry for any confusion.  You’re correct, my 4Sight reference is to When|Then.  That said, the 40% ‘On Level’ I set from the ISY interface (as I understand it) is written to the dimmer switch, validated by turning the light on with the paddle of the dimmer switch and it turns on to the 40% level state.  I would think that when C4 comparably turns on the light, it would turn on to the set 40% state.

[Rich404]

https://www.insteon.com/isy-994i