Combining Sound Matrix...sound ok?

[eggzlot]

1 hour ago, mstafford388 said:

Ok, so I was simply answering a direct question with regards to old C4 audio stuff vs the new Triad stuff.  Didn't even bring up VS, Zektor etc, although I've worked with a bunch of dealers who use both so I've actually seen and experienced all of them (I really like the Zektor stuff too for large systems).  The biggest difference in audio quality will come from the new amps vs the old amps.  It doesn't matter if we are talking specs on paper or actual listening experience they are flat out better.  I had the old stuff, I now have the new stuff and there is a noticeable difference even when using streaming content through my in ceiling kitchen speakers, especially with Tidal and Deezer.  So that partially answers your question as to who told me they are better, the other answer to that question is pretty much everyone who has used and heard them, dealers and customers, and several other people in the industry who have no skin in the game either way.  There are tons of people out there who don't care about quality audio but the OP has specifically asked about it several times in this thread so that makes me think it's at least a little important to him.  Oh, and I sleep just fine thanks  

If someone spends money taking out Amp A and putting in Amp B and it cost them extra money psychology says they will tend to like Amp B and sing its praises to help mentally process the money spent.  Its like someone saying a $100/ft speaker wire is better than something $10/ft.  On paper with fancy marketing yes, but in real world would 95% of the people know the difference?  We all do it, me included.  :-)   I am not saying spend crap money on audio gear, I have a pair of speakers that are $4,000 for a pair of floorstanding speakers (not including my sub or center channel) - some would call that low-mid range, for my budget it was high end but its a drop in the bucket for high end audio, I am aware.  And sure they sound better than my yamaha in ceiling speakers in the bathroom.  But changing the Matrix didn't change their respective sound.

I am giving my real world advice - as someone who has been there, as a user, in this situation.  I had the C4 matrix and C4 amp models prior to the Triad release.  I swapped the Matrix to VS and there is literally zero difference. 

Others can chime in with their real world experience which is why this is a great forum.

I will say the Triad hardware is certainly nicer looking than the VS matrix.  My AV rack is well hidden away in a back room so really the looks of pieces of hardware have zero impact on me.  

And I didn't ask if you slept fine at night - if your customers are happy you should sleep fine at night.  Because you are doing a good job.  I only merely speculated profit margins and knowledge of a platform (going all C4 vs using a 3rd party) may sway dealers to use the Triad set up and push it more.

 

 

[thegreatheed]

1 hour ago, eggzlot said:

I am giving my real world advice - as someone who has been there, as a user, in this situation.  I had the C4 matrix and C4 amp models prior to the Triad release.  I swapped the Matrix to VS and there is literally zero difference. 

 

No. You aren't. You have NO real-world advice about the Triad audio matrix, you've never heard or used one. You're giving an unrelated experience about gear that isn't even close to the same. 

/smh

[LollerAgent]

I seriously doubt that you would hear a difference between a Triad and VS matrix for WHA.  Yes, this is me guessing.  I do suspect you would hear a difference between the Triad amps and other inferior amps, though.

[mstafford388]

7 minutes ago, LollerAgent said:

I seriously doubt that you would hear a difference between a Triad and VS matrix for WHA.  Yes, this is me guessing.  I do suspect you would hear a difference between the Triad amps and other inferior amps, though.

Yes, the amps is where you'll see the biggest difference for sure.  

[eggzlot]

56 minutes ago, thegreatheed said:

No. You aren't. You have NO real-world advice about the Triad audio matrix, you've never heard or used one. You're giving an unrelated experience about gear that isn't even close to the same. 

/smh

I was clear it was not the Triad version but the prior release and as at least 1 other person pointed out, the odds of hearing the difference in real world blind audio testing is slim to none.  I clearly said I just switched from Brand A to Brand B for the need of a few features, and the audio quality did not change.

https://hometheaterreview.com/why-do-audiophiles-fear-abx-testing/

Audio is very subjective.  You can take the same priced speakers from different brands, or the same priced AVR from different brands and hear differences.  In the grand scheme of things, doing a big C4 project, picking your matrix should not be such a stressful decision - that is my underlying point.  Someone may find the highs in Yamaha speakers harsh or the bass of Def Tech overwhelming, but others may enjoy those traits.  Its subjective.  Not black and white.  So someone may prefer the Zektor over the Triad or vice versa.  Its mostly a personal decision made on emotion vs a black and white yes/no answer.  People may want a clear yes/no.  I just dont think there is one in this situation.  That's all I am trying to say.

[Matt Lowe]

6 hours ago, rf9000 said:

Thanks, but a bit confused on what you said here. You are saying that I should try to eliminate  8 of the zones by combining rooms? And then in the rooms where I want the subwoofers to play along with the ceiling speakers, just Y those outputs to the sub inputs in the rack? Like for instance, I have dual Kef ceiling subwoofers in the kitchen. So are you saying that for the output from the 24x24 for the kitchen zone, split that output to run to the Traid for the kitchen ceiling speakers and to the Crown for the Kef Subwoofers, thus saving a zone? I wasn't sure that I could do that and wasn't sure that would sound ok? 

That is correct as far as i under stand it you really only need to combine maybe two zones with two zones on the 24x24. Also the Triad amps have loop in and out audio so you could use those to loop in the Subwoofers. this is only on the global input so you would only have 1 per amp. you could also run some single zone triad amps for the zones with subs and they all have loop in and out. So you likely to two eight zone amps a 4 zone amp and 4 single zone amps. This would give you 7 loop audios and also allow you to group zones more easily using the global audio inputs to split outputs if you can combine those zones with the zones using the global input for subs. 

 

As for the quality yes the triad is better build quality period. If you can hear that difference depends on a lot of variables. Room, speakers, amplifier, wire, and many more.  The triad will also better match the rest of the equipment from control4 as well.

 

[thegreatheed]

43 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

I was clear it was not the Triad version but the prior release and as at least 1 other person pointed out, the odds of hearing the difference in real world blind audio testing is slim to none.  I clearly said I just switched from Brand A to Brand B for the need of a few features, and the audio quality did not change.

https://hometheaterreview.com/why-do-audiophiles-fear-abx-testing/

Audio is very subjective.  You can take the same priced speakers from different brands, or the same priced AVR from different brands and hear differences.  In the grand scheme of things, doing a big C4 project, picking your matrix should not be such a stressful decision - that is my underlying point.  Someone may find the highs in Yamaha speakers harsh or the bass of Def Tech overwhelming, but others may enjoy those traits.  Its subjective.  Not black and white.  So someone may prefer the Zektor over the Triad or vice versa.  Its mostly a personal decision made on emotion vs a black and white yes/no answer.  People may want a clear yes/no.  I just dont think there is one in this situation.  That's all I am trying to say.

There are substantial, measurable changes between them. It IS black and white. 

You are just going off on the standard anti-audiophile tirade. You're not even on topic. Thanks for the contribution.

[thegreatheed]

Also, go do an ABX test with Triad and the old C4 matrix. NO ONE is fearing that. I _dare_ you to go ABX test them. Until you do, YOU ARE NOT SHARING REAL-WORLD EXPERIENCE. You are quoting hypotheticals and theory without any substance. You are doing exactly what you decry.

[LollerAgent]

2 minutes ago, thegreatheed said:

Also, go do an ABX test with Triad and the old C4 matrix. NO ONE is fearing that. I _dare_ you to go ABX test them. Until you do, YOU ARE NOT SHARING REAL-WORLD EXPERIENCE. You are quoting hypotheticals and theory without any substance. You are doing exactly what you decry.

Haha - calm down, bud.  Tell us exactly what makes the Triad MATRIX superior to any others on the market?  It sounds like you have all of the answers.

[mstafford388]

7 minutes ago, LollerAgent said:

Haha - calm down, bud.  Tell us exactly what makes the Triad MATRIX superior to any others on the market?  It sounds like you have all of the answers.

It really is when a killer piece when it comes to things like signal to noise ratio, resolution supported up to 192khz/24bit, etc.  You may not hear a night and day difference from their audio matrix vs others, but it is indeed a kick butt matrix.  

[eggzlot]

26 minutes ago, mstafford388 said:

It really is when a killer piece when it comes to things like signal to noise ratio, resolution supported up to 192khz/24bit, etc.  You may not hear a night and day difference from their audio matrix vs others, but it is indeed a kick butt matrix.  

I do not think anyone said it isn't a nice piece of gear, did they?  Nor did I tell the OP not to go that route.  And I do not even know the cost of the Triad gear, but the VS gear has a public price and 1 unit fits his need so the suggestion was how much are the 2 triads + any extra programming (if any) needed to loop the two together vs just getting 1 VS.  If the price is identical and he can get what he wants out of the Triad gear and it looks better and gets great reviews, sure go with it.  If VS (or any other brand) is half the price and can deliver what he wants and the audio quality difference is marginal then that could be a reason to sway him in another direction.

41 minutes ago, thegreatheed said:

Also, go do an ABX test with Triad and the old C4 matrix. NO ONE is fearing that. I _dare_ you to go ABX test them. Until you do, YOU ARE NOT SHARING REAL-WORLD EXPERIENCE. You are quoting hypotheticals and theory without any substance. You are doing exactly what you decry.

I would ABX test if there was a dealer/showroom with such a set up.  I am not sure there is 1 showroom on the planet open to the public that has an ABX test set up between Audio Matrix 1 vs Audio Matrix 2.  Of course I could be wrong but most showrooms have tests for Pre-pros, amps, AVRs, speakers, etc.  Not WHA matrix.  And btw I said I have been guilty over over examining audio and video components.  And yes I have some nice money sunk into them and I've learned a bit over time.  I do not begrudge my purchases, I am simply saying if you take crappy speakers and crappy wire in poorly acoustically treated rooms and you are listening to compressed mp3s via a poor wifi signal off your phone via shairbridge with underpowered amps, your matrix doesn't mean squat.  He is asking an isolated question in a chain with many components and potential weak points.  That's all.

And no where did I say the VS or another model is superior to the Triad, on paper or real world "tests" that I guess you have access to because you know people who have said its a better unit.  I am merely showing another side/option and my own experience with different matrices, that's all.

I'll defend my stance, I personally do not think there is a major discernible audio difference that 95% of the world would here in real world applications with speakers placed to look nice and blend in but not in the optimal locations, etc (not in a sound lab)

[thegreatheed]

42 minutes ago, LollerAgent said:

Haha - calm down, bud.  Tell us exactly what makes the Triad MATRIX superior to any others on the market?  It sounds like you have all of the answers.

I'm not saying I have all the answers, but there's black and white differences on paper. You are ignoring all the black and white differences, and saying your 'experience' means there's no difference, and you actually have no hands-on experience with it.... all the while decrying subjective experience (but giving yours). You're actually claiming to have all the answers--at least all the ones that matter at least--without even looking at the specs, for example. 

Meanwhile, I'm saying go actually get some RELEVANT experience with the product we're talking about before you claim your experience (with totally different product) overrides anything else.

[mstafford388]

18 hours ago, eggzlot said:

I do not think anyone said it isn't a nice piece of gear, did they?  Nor did I tell the OP not to go that route.  And I do not even know the cost of the Triad gear, but the VS gear has a public price and 1 unit fits his need so the suggestion was how much are the 2 triads + any extra programming (if any) needed to loop the two together vs just getting 1 VS.  If the price is identical and he can get what he wants out of the Triad gear and it looks better and gets great reviews, sure go with it.  If VS (or any other brand) is half the price and can deliver what he wants and the audio quality difference is marginal then that could be a reason to sway him in another direction.

I would ABX test if there was a dealer/showroom with such a set up.  I am not sure there is 1 showroom on the planet open to the public that has an ABX test set up between Audio Matrix 1 vs Audio Matrix 2.  Of course I could be wrong but most showrooms have tests for Pre-pros, amps, AVRs, speakers, etc.  Not WHA matrix.  And btw I said I have been guilty over over examining audio and video components.  And yes I have some nice money sunk into them and I've learned a bit over time.  I do not begrudge my purchases, I am simply saying if you take crappy speakers and crappy wire in poorly acoustically treated rooms and you are listening to compressed mp3s via a poor wifi signal off your phone via shairbridge with underpowered amps, your matrix doesn't mean squat.  He is asking an isolated question in a chain with many components and potential weak points.  That's all.

And no where did I say the VS or another model is superior to the Triad, on paper or real world "tests" that I guess you have access to because you know people who have said its a better unit.  I am merely showing another side/option and my own experience with different matrices, that's all.

I'll defend my stance, I personally do not think there is a major discernible audio difference that 95% of the world would here in real world applications with speakers placed to look nice and blend in but not in the optimal locations, etc (not in a sound lab)

Geez I keep answering direct questions from people and you're taking it as me making some crazy Triad sales pitch.  All I'm saying is they make good stuff, haven't said other people don't make good stuff that will also work just fine.  Everyone has specific needs and budgets and need to make whatever decision makes the most sense for them.  I was just answering specific questions about the quality of the Triad audio gear and they make high quality stuff for house audio.  That's a fact, regardless of what you think about where my information comes from and it's credibility.  Just do some research, the gear is very well reviewed.     

[lippavisual]

Triad 24x24 + 8x8 = $3600 msrp

VideoStorm CMX3838A2= $3800 msrp

Splitting hairs here, really.  I know which one I would have chosen for the install.

[eggzlot]

53 minutes ago, mstafford388 said:

Geez I keep answering direct questions from people and you're taking it as me making some crazy Triad sales pitch.  All I'm saying is they make good stuff, haven't said other people don't make good stuff that will also work just fine.  Everyone has specific needs and budgets and need to make whatever decision makes the most sense for them.  I was just answering specific questions about the quality of the Triad audio gear and they make high quality stuff for house audio.  That's a fact, regardless of what you think about where my information comes from and it's credibility.  Just do some research, the gear is very well reviewed.     

I know you are answering questions.  Where did I directly say you were biased or making a Triad sales pitch?  Where did I say the gear was not good or maybe better than other options?  I only said in real world doing streaming audio there are so many factors in the chain I honestly do not think someone is going to really hear a difference.  I never knocked Triad.  I did say dealers may get a better margin on it, its c4 branded, easier ordering, etc so dealers may steer you in that direction and that's 100% fine by me as an end user.  If it works, its in my budget and my dealer can support it and guarantee it will do what I need, that's fine.

45 minutes ago, lippavisual said:

Triad 24x24 + 8x8 = $3600 msrp

VideoStorm CMX3838A2= $3800 msrp

Splitting hairs here, really.  I know which one I would have chosen for the install.

Certainly is splitting hairs - at that price point I'd go with what your dealer recommends they can comfortably install that hits your use cases.  If you can loop the 2 Triads together so something in the 8x8 can be played on the 24x24 then that may be the way to go.  I have no idea how Triad may handle any audio delay but that is not needed in most cases.

Also - and this is just me - plan for headroom and do not buy gear where you are maxed out or only have 1-2 open slots left.  some input breaks, you want to add a new zone down the road, etc, its nice to have a little breathing room

 

[lippavisual]

3 hours ago, eggzlot said:

I have no idea how Triad may handle any audio delay but that is not needed in most cases.

The Triads don't have any delay at all.