Jump to content
Tanner_Moore

Cost effective multi room options?

Recommended Posts

I'm looking into distributed multi room audio systems to integrate with my Control4 system. I like Denon's HEOS Drive units because they integrate with C4 and Alexa as well as have their own app, so there is multiple methods of control. What I don't really like is the $1000CAD per zone. Are there similar options with the same characteristics as HEOS, but at a lower cost point? I have a 42U rack. 

 

It just really needs to be bulletproof, simple to use for the sake of everyone else in the house and controllable through C4 and Alexa. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Tanner_Moore said:

I'm looking into distributed multi room audio systems to integrate with my Control4 system. I like Denon's HEOS Drive units because they integrate with C4 and Alexa as well as have their own app, so there is multiple methods of control. What I don't really like is the $1000CAD per zone. Are there similar options with the same characteristics as HEOS, but at a lower cost point? I have a 42U rack. 

 

It just really needs to be bulletproof, simple to use for the sake of everyone else in the house and controllable through C4 and Alexa. 

what controller do you have?  C4 has native services.  Can you run speaker wire to various rooms and get an amp/matrix combo?

How many zones?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Tanner_Moore said:

It just really needs to be bulletproof

None of the 3rd party multizone setups are bulletproof. We have a had more issues with heos lately even compared to sonos which has it's own issues/limitations. I have heard good things about bluesound but dont think the price point is lower

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right now I only have an EA-1 right now with a EA-3 or 5 next phase. 

 

I would say minimum 4 zones, but really with the size of this house I could get as many as 8 or 12 in. 

All of my zones are wired for ceiling speakers except the living room. I'd rather just use a sound bar in there. The big surround system can go in the theatre. Though, both of these zones dont -need- to be integrated into the multi room function, it would be nice. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, sonic30101 said:

We have a had more issues with heos lately

What sort of issue have you had?

Bulletproof is pretty important. A system that's hard to use is a system that doesn't get used. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Tanner_Moore said:

Right now I only have an EA-1 right now with a EA-3 or 5 next phase. 

 

I would say minimum 4 zones, but really with the size of this house I could get as many as 8 or 12 in. 

All of my zones are wired for ceiling speakers except the living room. I'd rather just use a sound bar in there. The big surround system can go in the theatre. Though, both of these zones dont -need- to be integrated into the multi room function, it would be nice. 

I'd get an Ea3 or 5 depending on how many unique streams you need at any 1 given time.  Then get some dumb amps and a matrix.  C4 makes a new 8x8 and 24x24 matrix.  They have older 16x16's you can find on this forum or ebay.  Video Storm also makes a 16x16.  For amps you can use the new Triad amps or several others that are discussed here often on the forum.

I moved off of Sonos, could not be happier. C4 native services just work and it makes it easy to get announcements into various rooms (such as doorbells)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, eggzlot said:

  Then get some dumb amps and a matrix.  C4 makes a new 8x8 and 24x24 matrix.  They have older 16x16's you can find on this forum or ebay.

Is the C4-AMP108-BX still relevant?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

I'd get an Ea3 or 5 depending on how many unique streams you need at any 1 given time.  Then get some dumb amps and a matrix.  

Are you referring to the C4-16ZAMSV3-B? On the website it says it can distribute 16 zones, whereas the C4-16ZAMSv3-B (edit: C4-16AMP3-B) will distribute and amplify to 8 zones.. what would be the benefit of using the matrix with dumb amps vs just getting 2 control4 8 zone amplifiers and be done with it? Is the "dumb amp" route significantly cheaper? 

Edited by Tanner_Moore
Same model number twice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Tanner_Moore said:

Are you referring to the C4-16ZAMSV3-B? On the website it says it can distribute 16 zones, whereas the C4-16ZAMSv3-B will distribute and amplify to 8 zones.. what would be the benefit of using the matrix with dumb amps vs just getting 2 control4 8 zone amplifiers and be done with it? Is the "dumb amp" route significantly cheaper? 

for simplicity sake its best to get matrix the proper size and then get some dumb amps.  one could get a matrix/amp combo and piece 2 of them together.  If you are going over 8 zones I'd get a stand alone matrix + separate amps.

C4-AMP108-BX is just an amp - may be end of life regarding support but fairly sure it can continue in a C4 project for years to come.  I do not know for sure, but since its just a network amp not really sure it being EOL will make your system fracture.  again may have issues sourcing parts, there is no warranty, etc.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

C4-AMP108-BX is just an amp - may be end of life regarding support but fairly sure it can continue in a C4 project for years to come.

 If the C4-AMP108-BX is end of life I'd rather not bother with it. I was more referring to the C4-16AMP3-B. Says it distributes and amplifies. You'd still recommend the matrix/amp combo?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Tanner_Moore said:

 If the C4-AMP108-BX is end of life I'd rather not bother with it. I was more referring to the C4-16AMP3-B. Says it distributes and amplifies. You'd still recommend the matrix/amp combo?

Control4 replaced that amp (AMP108) with the Triad TS-PAMP8-100. 

Triad TS-AMS8 + TS-PAMP8-100 is a bulletproof and a high-def audio solution.  This is the current solution to replace the (end of sale) C4-16AMP3.

So, overall, an EA-3/5 into the TS-AMS8 into the TS-PAMP8.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tanner_Moore said:

 If the C4-AMP108-BX is end of life I'd rather not bother with it. I was more referring to the C4-16AMP3-B. Says it distributes and amplifies. You'd still recommend the matrix/amp combo?

im not a dealer, just an end user.  from what ive read, most people like to spec out a separate matrix  and then amps.  If you have a small set up the matrix/amp combo unit is fine too.  if you have more than 8 zones some say its sloppy/complex to program 2 8x8 matrix/combo units vs getting a 16x16 matrix (or 24x24 in the case of C4) and then getting sufficient amps to pair up with it.

you could also as your dealer of record for some input to see what they are comfortable programming and their experience with a few options?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, thegreatheed said:

Control4 replaced that amp (AMP108) with the Triad TS-PAMP8-100. 

Triad TS-AMS8 + TS-PAMP8-100 is a bulletproof and a high-def audio solution.  This is the current solution to replace the (end of sale) C4-16AMP3.

So, overall, an EA-3/5 into the TS-AMS8 into the TS-PAMP8.

 

👆👆👆 This. On a cost per zone the Triad AMS8 and PAMP8 are pretty hard to beat. In the UK they work out at only £250 per zone and then all you need to add is speakers and streaming sources. EA-1 with a HDMI audio extractor will give you single stream, EA-3 will give you 3 (inc HDMI audio) and EA-5, yes you guessed it, will give you 5 streams (inc HDMI audio).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a Russound MCA-C5 and it works perfectly with an EA-1. 8 zones (6 amplified zones). I have a Sonos connect that feeds the audio to the Russound and 2 Denon receivers. Works great. 

That Russound is the previous generation. The latest is the MCA-88x that has the streaming built in. You wouldn’t even need sonos with it. They are on eBay brand new for $1825

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/19/2019 at 12:42 PM, therockhr said:

I have a Russound MCA-C5 and it works perfectly with an EA-1. 8 zones (6 amplified zones). I have a Sonos connect that feeds the audio to the Russound and 2 Denon receivers. Works great. 

That Russound is the previous generation. The latest is the MCA-88x that has the streaming built in. You wouldn’t even need sonos with it. They are on eBay brand new for $1825

Isnt russound dealer installed? I live in a small, northern Canadian town so local companies are few. The closest Russound dealer is in another province. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Tanner_Moore said:

Isnt russound dealer installed? I live in a small, northern Canadian town so local companies are few. The closest Russound dealer is in another province. 

It is but they used to make the software available. They may have changed their policy. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Gary Leeds UK said:

I would use Sonos on that budget 

I've heard almost nothing but bad regarding Sonos on this forum regarding features and ease of use.

Is it unrealistic to expect a 16 zone amp/matrix system to cost less than $16,000 without even factoring labor, wiring or speakers? The C4-16AMP3-B isnt more than $4,000.. that makes it $300/zone. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Tanner_Moore said:

I've heard almost nothing but bad regarding Sonos on this forum regarding features and ease of use.

Is it unrealistic to expect a 16 zone amp/matrix system to cost less than $16,000 without even factoring labor, wiring or speakers? The C4-16AMP3-B isnt more than $4,000.. that makes it $300/zone. 

Even getting new triad equipment would be under 1,000/zone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Tanner_Moore said:

I've heard almost nothing but bad regarding Sonos on this forum regarding features and ease of use.

Is it unrealistic to expect a 16 zone amp/matrix system to cost less than $16,000 without even factoring labor, wiring or speakers? The C4-16AMP3-B isnt more than $4,000.. that makes it $300/zone. 

Don’t know exactly what CAD prices are like but in the UK a 16 zone C4/Triad system would work out as:

1x Control4 EA-5 Controller- 4 separate audio streams - £1460

1x Triad AMS24 24 Zone Audio Matrix - £1760

2x Triad PAM8 8 Zone Power Amp - £2490

That works out at £5710 without speakers or about $9,900CAD. 

Even if you add speakers:

16x Triad R16 In-Ceiling Speakers - £3760

it comes in at £9470 or just over $16,000CAD with only wiring and labor to add.

Does that sound more reasonable to you?

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Crustyloafer said:

Don’t know exactly what CAD prices are like but in the UK a 16 zone C4/Triad system would work out as:

1x Control4 EA-5 Controller- 4 separate audio streams - £1460

1x Triad AMS24 24 Zone Audio Matrix - £1760

2x Triad PAM8 8 Zone Power Amp - £2490

That works out at £5710 without speakers or about $9,900CAD. 

Even if you add speakers:

16x Triad R16 In-Ceiling Speakers - £3760

it comes in at £9470 or just over $16,000CAD with only wiring and labor to add.

Does that sound more reasonable to you?

 

 

 

 

So, in order to make it to $16,000 we're going to throw an ea5 and the speakers? The triad equipment mentioned without all the added stuff is $7,382.95 or $388 a zone. Well under the aforementioned $1000. If my aim was to spend $16,000, I could easily do so. The point was not to. You also left out the C4-16AMP3-B option which does in one piece what all 3 triad units do, or what several helpful members had mentioned with the matrix/amp combos. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tanner_Moore said:

So, in order to make it to $16,000 we're going to throw an ea5 and the speakers? The triad equipment mentioned without all the added stuff is $7,382.95 or $388 a zone. Well under the aforementioned $1000. If my aim was to spend $16,000, I could easily do so. The point was not to. You also left out the C4-16AMP3-B option which does in one piece what all 3 triad units do, or what several helpful members had mentioned with the matrix/amp combos. 

1. My intention was not to reach the $16,000CAD mark, but illustrate that without speakers and cables and labor it could be achieved for well under that. You are going to need some audio streaming sources so an EA-3 or EA-5 is going to be required if you want to use the C4 native services and with a 16 zone system you are probably going to want to have at least 4 separate streams, hence the EA-5 suggestion. The speakers were listed to illustrate that you could do it all, including speakers if required for only $16,000 or thereabouts. As you correctly point out the Triad combo comes in at well under $1,000CAD a zone, but remember it does not have any streaming capabilities on its own so you will need an EA-3 or EA-5 as your source.

2. The C4-16AMP3-B is not a 16 zone matrix amp, it is a 16 channel/8 zone amp with far lower audio performance and flexibility than the Triad combination. The Triad combination I quoted for was capable of 16 zones of audio, with two speakers in each zone which is what you said you were looking for.

I was purely try to to be as helpful as possible with my post but your response's attitude and clear lack of knowledge about what the other "several helpful members" have suggested to you doesn't make me particularly inclined to help any further.

Just to be clear, for myself and anyone else willing to respond, is it 16 zones of audio you are looking to achieve or 16 speakers you are looking to drive,  they require different things and involve very different equipment costs?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Crustyloafer said:

I was purely try to to be as helpful as possible

Then I apologize. I misread your intention. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...