Composer 3.0

[eggzlot]

6 hours ago, jfh said:

 

 

That said, the general direction this thread has taken is sad, comical and predictable.   Those with access to Pro are generally happy with the status quo.  Those without are not.  Some of the C4 equipment EOL announcements are understandable (no longer supporting v2 touch screens).  Others like totally nerfing the HC-250 are not.  I have significant concerns in investing is ANY new C4 branded hardware because of this (though the hefty markups on C4 equipment don’t help).

I don’t have pro.  I’m not whining.  When I purchased C4 I did my homework and knew the limitations.  So why cry and complain?  It was not forced on me.  Savant was 100% locked and 5 years ago (and still feel today) no DIY platform was robust enough for my needs.  

People C4 isnt a government mandated system where you have no choice.  You either picked it or moved to a place with it and decided to roll with it.  Feel free to rip it out whenever you want.  

[jfh]

11 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

I don’t have pro.  I’m not whining.  When I purchased C4 I did my homework and knew the limitations.  So why cry and complain?  It was not forced on me.  Savant was 100% locked and 5 years ago (and still feel today) no DIY platform was robust enough for my needs.  

People C4 isnt a government mandated system where you have no choice.  You either picked it or moved to a place with it and decided to roll with it.  Feel free to rip it out whenever you want.  

I may be sorry I waded into this conversation.  ‘Feel free to rip it out whenever you want’?  Come on.  That’s like saying if you don’t like your HOA then move.  I have tens of thousands invested in my C4 setup.  Replacing it simply isn’t an option unless I win the lottery.  I’m not going to debate the Pro thing here; it’s been beaten to death.  My installing dealer flat out lied to me about what I could do with HE.  Yes, my bad for not verifying at initial install time.

I like C4 in general.  But the distain and disregard C4 has for anyone that isn’t a dealer is palpable. Which is probably 98% of the people that use their products.  One minor example - Detective Suite is not available in HE.  That is absolutely insane.  Two years ago a C4 exec told me he would get it put in as a request to the development team as it was certainly a reasonable request.  Is DS Available to HE users? No. C4 went the other direction.  The function is no longer in a separate module that an HE user could run.  C4 actually further imbedded it into Pro with the When/If (or whatever it’s called).  There isn’t a damn reason any HE users shouldn’t be able to run DS or any of the reports.  Yet C4 expects us to hire dealers to do that.

I will continue to use it but can’t recommend it to anyone new to it.  If they ever decide that the actual consumers of their products and power users are important I may change my tune.

i have no problem with technology becoming obsoleted and/or unsupported with new releases.  Anyone who expects that will never happen is unrealistic.  For OS3 I understand why the v2 screens aren’t supported and have no issue with that.  I replaced my HC-250s with EA1s in prep for upgrading.  But I’m not happy about that.  For many the 250 is a glorified IR blaster when used as a non-primary controller.  Don’t see any reason it couldn’t be supported at least with that function.  I can still use an 800 for everything but video output, but the 250 is a brick?  

I will probably upgrade to OS3.  I’m replacing a bunch of non-C4 switches so I can have more keypads.  But I’ll be very wary of buying any new C4 equipment if what I have becomes no longer viable for fear that it may end up being another DS fiasco.

[Brownbatsbreath]

Eh, that kind of makes the point for C4 tho, right?

If they make the old equipment work on 3.0, you’re not really going to need to buy any new equipment are you? So they spend resources on keeping old products usable.. with what return? Making 12 dudes on a forum a little less pissy for awhile? I mean I guess...

So now they EOL it and you say you won’t buy anymore products... Cool, they didn’t waste resources and got the same result. 

In one thread C4 sucks because they aren’t making any money. So now they make a prudent business decision and they suck for it.... Okay.  

 

[Zuhair]

I don’t have pro.  I’m not whining.  When I purchased C4 I did my homework and knew the limitations.  So why cry and complain?  It was not forced on me.  Savant was 100% locked and 5 years ago (and still feel today) no DIY platform was robust enough for my needs.  
People C4 isnt a government mandated system where you have no choice.  You either picked it or moved to a place with it and decided to roll with it.  Feel free to rip it out whenever you want.  

Personally, I like the dealer model and I knew it before buying C4. Composer HE is more than enough for me, I can do almost any programming. I don't want to mess with hardware installation/bindings.

[blub]

BUT IT DIDN'T STOP WORKING. You just can't upgrade to the next software version with it.

And exactly that is my point. There is NO reason for a device like a door station NOT to work with a new OS, just like a light switch - it does not need a new function, it could continue to "just be a door station".

Therefore it is NOT OK to have to remove it for the new OS - such behavior does not benefit the brand, it will scare ppl away as no one wants to spent 1200$ every 6 to 8 years just to stay on the current OS.

If you believe different then please explain to me why the DS cannot work with OS3 on a technical level - I. E. Why can't it continue to provide a door bell sound and audio video under OS while it can do it with OS 2.x

[blub]

So my .02 on the DS - it sucks.  I agree with everyone there.... But on the 250, I can't fault Control4 for killing it - it's old and it just doesn't pay to invest engineering in something that old.

 

 

And that is why I say Control4 has to move away from hardware sales as the main driver for revenue.

Then they could easier afford to keep an older HC in the system working as a secondary HC or a ZAP or IR device.

It would also be better for the environment....

 

 

 

[blub]

.  Is DS Available to HE users? No. C4 went the other direction.  The function is no longer in a separate module that an HE user could run.  C4 actually further imbedded it into Pro with the When/If (or whatever it’s called).  There isn’t a damn reason any HE users shouldn’t be able to run DS or any of the reports.  Yet C4 expects us to hire dealers to do that.

That's so something I do not understand. Searching in my programming in HE would be sooooo much appreciated to find bugs.....

[msgreenf]

10 minutes ago, blub said:

 

And that is why I say Control4 has to move away from hardware sales as the main driver for revenue.

Then they could easier afford to keep an older HC in the system working as a secondary HC or a ZAP or IR device.

It would also be better for the environment....

 

that logic seems flawed - every IOT company is driven by hardware sales...

[dcovach]

On 6/29/2019 at 12:12 PM, blub said:

 

 

That's so something I do not understand. Searching in my programming in HE would be sooooo much appreciated to find bugs.....

 

There's a new Summary Tab in Pro HE (os3) that shows you all the programming at each room level.  Not sure if you updated yet or even using HE altogether.

Edited July 1, 2019 by dcovach
Summary Tab is not in HE.... sorry

[jfh]

53 minutes ago, dcovach said:

There's a new tab in HE (os3) that shows you all the programming at each room level.  Not sure if you updated yet or even using HE altogether.

If that’s in HE 3.0 than that alone may be worth upgrading for me.  Can you confirm that function is indeed in HE and not just Pro?

[jfh]

And what about all the other programming?  Variables, macros, etc.   

 

Most programming isn’t at a room level

[jfh]

3 hours ago, Zuhair said:

 

Personally, I like the dealer model and I knew it before buying C4. Composer HE is more than enough for me, I can do almost any programming. I don't want to mess with hardware installation/bindings.

 

There’s no reason you should have to deal with installing drivers/changing bindings if you don’t want to.  But there’s no reason you shouldn’t be able to if you are comfortable with it.  It’s not exactly rocket science.  Once you learn some basic concepts, it’s trivial to do.  And I guarantee you that most power users using HE are more than capable of handling the learning curve.

The “no Pro” position is exactly why I can not recommend C4 to my friends (who would otherwise love it).  I’m willing to pay for whatever training C4 wants to require and license Pro.  Any C4 system owner willing to do that should be able to license Pro.

[msgreenf]

can we get back on OS 3 topic...this thread has been badly hijacked

[dcovach]

On 6/29/2019 at 1:20 PM, jfh said:

And what about all the other programming?  Variables, macros, etc.   

 

Most programming isn’t at a room level

I saw your last question in response to @chopedogg88 in another thread.  Unfortunately the Summary Tab is only available in Pro. My mistake.   Any agents (Macro's or variables, etc) will also show in the programming summary for that room when using the summary tab.  It's for viewing the programming in the room,  not for viewing or editing the contents of programming in any mentioned agents in that room. It's a much faster and convenient way to find any programming in the room or related to that room regardless of wherever else it's in the project.  It's not a new method for programming, just a new way to see where all the programming is for that room.  Dealers see this same tab too.  It wasn't available before os3 for pro.  Would be nice if available for HE.

If you want to edit the programming, either for those agents or in the room,  then you'll have to do it the usual way (same way dealers have to) but with newer enhanced programming options.  E.g.  Go to the events tab and find the device, macro, variable, etc and change the programming there.

Here's a link to the new programming features mentioned in a different thread.

 

[eggzlot]

4 hours ago, jfh said:

 

The “no Pro” position is exactly why I can not recommend C4 to my friends (who would otherwise love it).  

My friend drives a McLaren which is one of his 6-7 cars.   When I asked him for his opinion on cars when I was shopping he didn’t mention a McLaren. He knows I’m not their target customer. I’d love to own one though. But it’s not for me

C4 isn’t for everyone. Their target is not mass market. 

[jfh]

1 hour ago, eggzlot said:

My friend drives a McLaren which is one of his 6-7 cars.   When I asked him for his opinion on cars when I was shopping he didn’t mention a McLaren. He knows I’m not their target customer. I’d love to own one though. But it’s not for me

C4 isn’t for everyone. Their target is not mass market. 

 

That has nothing to do with my point.  

And I agree that their target is not mass market, despite targeting many MDU buildings.  

But my home and those of my friends who would use C4 are hardly in “mass market neighborhoods”.  

C4 has chosen to alienate the very power users that could provide a remarkable amount of free marketing.

My basement/gameroom/theater won a design award from HGTV.   But I specifically avoided any mention of C4 because of the no-Pro BS.

[Neo1738]

On 6/28/2019 at 2:01 PM, blub said:

You cannot compare a smartphone with something that is part of house.
Home automation is in between long lasting parts for houses, like HVAC etc., and short lasting technology - it's a balance act.
For me everything that is somehow built into a house, like switches or a door station is something that I expect to work until it breaks, even if it is part of a HA system.
So an update to OS3 requiring to remove the doorstation is kinda a red flag here - it's supposed to make sound when someone pressed a button and provide audio and video - since the device was built to do that I don't see a reason why that should not work with OS 3 - it's not like the DS is 100$ piece of kit.
I don't expect an older device getting all the new functions, it's just about keeping it working.
The next step would be that all light switches are not compatible with OS 3.1 or so..

When did the stuff you have installed stop working? Please tell me that Control 4 created 3.0 left you on 2.10 and your stuff broke. If you tell me that then I would have some sorrow for you. But like others have tried to tell you all your still works just like the day you bought it. With the software you bought it with. C4 didn't make it obsolete. It STILL WORKS. IWhy don't you understand that? I feel like there is no getting through. They didn't break it, disable it, etc. All they did was say if you want newer software you need newer hardware that supports it. Even windows stopped updating on certain computers with not enough ram, processor, etc. This is technology in the 21st century. Laptops, tablets, smartphones, TOUCHSCREENS, CONTROLLERS, etc won't support the newest software forever. Your request to always be able to update is definitely unrealistic. I don't care how much you paid. Samsung promises updates for 5 years. IPhone about the same maybe less. Do you get pissed you spend over 1k every few years on a new phone? No. HVAC isn't the same, controllers are basically glorified relays at this point. NEST and the like haven't been around THAT long to say they will last the whole life of a house. I'm guessing at some point my NEST v2 will stop getting updates. It's about 3 years old now but not expecting updates forever. As long as it still works I don't need the update. Maybe it would be nice but I understand that after a period of time you need new hardware. Maybe the 250 or DS would "Work" with 3.0 but it might bog down requests, create memory loops, etc on the controller. You just don't know what limitations it has. I bought a laptop in 2010 about when those things came out, does it run every program today, def not. They need hardware upgrades to work sometimes. When that happens you have to stay on the software you are or upgrade. Think people never had to put more ram or storage into their computers (or gasp, but a new one!) in order to install a new piece of software? So again I ask when did C4 break your current setup and it stop working? Not talking about trying to update software. When did your CURRENT setup stop working? If it is still working like when you paid good $ for it than C4 hasn't done anything to you.

[digitaltrader]

36 minutes ago, Neo1738 said:

When did the stuff you have installed stop working? Please tell me that Control 4 created 3.0 left you on 2.10 and your stuff broke. If you tell me that then I would have some sorrow for you.

When I installed my door station I was told a future update would iron out the bugs and allow it to work properly.  I am still waiting a door-station that works reliably...the next OS was my hope after years of slow progress without true resolution.   I’d challenge anyone demonstrate a v1 doorstation working reliably with at least 6 touch screens in the same environment (I have 12).  I have no issue needing to upgrade....however C4 abondoned the V1 doorstation before it was working reliably.  Likely because it was a faulty product to begin with.  They just wore down the warranty clock and hoped users would forget.

[Neo1738]

1 minute ago, digitaltrader said:

When I installed my door station I was told a future update would iron out the bugs and allow it to work properly.  I am still waiting a door-station that works reliably...the next OS was my hope after years of slow progress without true resolution.   I’d challenge anyone demonstrate a v1 doorstation working reliably with at least 6 touch screens in the same environment (I have 12).  I have no issue needing to upgrade....however C4 abondoned the V1 doorstation before it was working reliably.  Likely because it was a faulty product to begin with.  They just wore down the warranty clock and hoped users would forget.

That is a totally separate issue than a complete OS upgrade. That's a driver specific issue with 1 item that was there before the update. I'm not saying C4 shouldn't work to make the driver work better for DS1 but i also don't think they should be forced to support it in OS3. Maybe they never could get it to work right and frankly gave up after years so decided 3.0 was the time to make it obsolete. Idk but either way expecting it to be updated is different than it's broken and won't work. They didn't break it when they released 3.0 without you upgrading forcing you to replace it with something new. It works the same now as it did the day OS3 was released. 

[msgreenf]

https://community.home-assistant.io/t/will-ha-get-close-to-control4-for-ui-and-features/124085

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[LollerAgent]

On 6/29/2019 at 12:24 PM, dcovach said:

There's a new tab in HE (os3) that shows you all the programming at each room level.  Not sure if you updated yet or even using HE altogether.

Where is this tab?  I must be blind!

[dcovach]

29 minutes ago, LollerAgent said:

Where is this tab?  I must be blind!

I spoke too soon. I was pretty sure I did a full comparison of HE but I did not.  That summary tab is not there. The tools tab on the top left doesn't have drop down options either.  I wonder if a future update will show more options, such as a summary tab and some tools.

That isn't too much to ask for an end user.

[jfh]

33 minutes ago, dcovach said:

I spoke too soon. I was pretty sure I did a full comparison of HE but I did not.  That summary tab is not there. The tools tab on the top left doesn't have drop down options either.  I wonder if a future update will show more options, such as a summary tab and some tools.

That isn't too much to ask for an end user.

Bummer.  So I guess my previous post about C4 having no consideration for actual users stands.

Two years is plenty of time to address this.  Shame on you C4.

I won’t publicly shame the exec involved about this but I’m very disappointed.  

[dcovach]

4 minutes ago, jfh said:

Bummer.  So I guess my previous post about C4 having no consideration for actual users stands.

Two years is plenty of time to address this.  Shame on you C4.

I won’t publicly shame the exec involved about this but I’m very disappointed.  

My apologies for not getting this detail right. I understand the frustration.  Hopefully HE opens up a bit more for end users so they can at least see their programming work in a summary tab.

[jfh]

Not your fault.  At least I know what I’m missing.