RyanE Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 1 minute ago, blub said: 2 hours ago, msgreenf said: Ok wap He's a member since 2010, so I doubt wap had started multiple accounts back then.... Talks like a duck, walks like a duck... RyanE chesterwilson and msgreenf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blub Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 No idea about selling the company part, but the HA system wouldn't be sellable if it didn't work. No homeowner would want it if it didn't provide something over Crestron, Vantage, URC, or Elan. It's easy to install and configure once learned. Pro allows creation of drivers, registering systems with C4, and gives access to a few wizards and diagnostic tools. It also allows adding devices and making the connections between devices. Basically they could break their whole system and might need training to be able to fix it.I know what Pro can do and how it works because I have worked with it guided over the phone by my dealer about 20 years when we had no internet. Controller registration was once a Hye feature. - I much rather ment what feature it is that wouldn't belong in a DIY pro version if it existet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blub Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 Talks like a duck, walks like a duck... RyanEStill I doubt it's wap... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 6 minutes ago, blub said: I know what Pro can do and how it works because I have worked with it guided over the phone by my dealer about 20 years when we had no internet. Controller registration was once a Hye feature. - I much rather ment what feature it is that wouldn't belong in a DIY pro version if it existet Everything that is currently missing/not available in HE wouldn't belong. I think even HE is a bit much. When>>Then is more appropriate and significantly easier to use/understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted June 19, 2019 Author Share Posted June 19, 2019 Still I doubt it's wap... That's fine. But I don't. Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blub Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 OK, sorry but here I disagree and I call that straight : BSAnyone who can build a PC and router with VPN can setup a basic, midsized Control4 system as 90% is drag and drop and based on simple logic. If systems gets larger things get different, especially with many ZigBee devices (we had issues once and it was a PITA).All it would need are a couple of tech videos, let's say 25 to 50 a 5 minutes and that's about it for the basics - it would attract a significant amount of new customers to the ecosystem and if I am wrong dealers would get piad to fix it anyway, so from my point of view DIY would be a win win for both sides.PS:The most important thing for a smooth running systems is a good network setup and that is not dependent on Composer Pro and I have seen good dealers struggling with troubleshooting here as well.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 6 minutes ago, blub said: OK, sorry but here I disagree and I call that straight : BS Anyone who can build a PC and router with VPN can setup a basic, midsized Control4 system as 90% is drag and drop and based on simple logic. If systems gets larger things get different, especially with many ZigBee devices (we had issues once and it was a PITA). All it would need are a couple of tech videos, let's say 25 to 50 a 5 minutes and that's about it for the basics - it would attract a significant amount of new customers to the ecosystem and if I am wrong dealers would get piad to fix it anyway, so from my point of view DIY would be a win win for both sides. PS: The most important thing for a smooth running systems is a good network setup and that is not dependent on Composer Pro and I have seen good dealers struggling with troubleshooting here as well.. Now you're talking about a great example. How many people can legitimately build a PC? 1% of the population? 2%? Also how many can set up their own VPN? Maybe 5%? So DIY would sell to the 1-5%? Building a decent sized project would require much more than 50 minutes of videos. Maybe 8+ hours or more worth of training videos. Maybe shorter for those maybe 5% of people. I definitely agree with the network being important, but even those who know networking can still struggle with HA networks. Mainly because HA networks and Corporate Networks are different worlds. dcovach, msgreenf, crazybuppie and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amr Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 Arguments, arguments all the time, everything is subjective here, not all people are alike, nothing is generic or goes on with a solid 99%, but again who could setup a whole C4 system alone? I get many, many basic questions from friends and family members who cloud not do a simple task with their Mac or iPhone/iPad, not to mention their Access Point or setting up their security Cameras! My 2 cents here; while I liked to work throughout some one all the time or not; the majority of people will never be able to setup a C4 system! Not because you and me can do it the mass can. Zuhair 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted June 20, 2019 Author Share Posted June 20, 2019 Why do you bold words that you don't mean? Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminaldisclaimer Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 On 6/18/2019 at 4:01 PM, msgreenf said: Except they have already said that isn't the case. They have publicly stated all c4 dealers requirements will stay the same post acquisition Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk I know they have. But if they had a plan to loosen the requirements, you think they would state that now? I think we can all agree they wouldn't. Now, it might happen slowly, something akin to how lutron works. But that won't change the fact that the dealers are going to face significantly increased competition. For example, they might allow certain smaller systems to be sold by any SnapAV dealer, and reserve the more complicated stuff for a higher level of registration. But it's going to happen. And even if I'm ultimately proven wrong, which I doubt, if I were a dealer I would have some contingencies in place because my prediction is at least a reasonable likelihood. But I'll make it interesting since I'm confident in my prediction. Bottle of Mac 18 to whichever dealer wants to wager with me that within 3 years the dealer requirements are loosened in some fashion by Snap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knowitall Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 A lot of good points in this thread. C4 tried to take over the “highend” residential market, which is a small percentage of the world. (See selling to people in limos comment) Programming a C4 system used to be an art form they dumbed it down just enough but not enough to be DIY, which is the biggest issue imo- way too many “dealers” that don’t have the skill or care to do it right Video distribution is dead. People were not as savvy, now people want to DIY. So Control4 has two things left lighting and audio, and whole house audio is a hard sell these days why spend all that $$$$ when you can get a $50 streaming box? Costs much more than that to prewire a zone and put up some brackets lighting is left. But I bought 15 lighting devices in 2014, don’t need anymore. So I am a customer but not a recurring one. Long story short, their business model is setup for failure, and its failing due to the dealers who are not selling the solution properly, doing a half-assed job at install, and leaving clients hung out to dry when support is needed. IoT and DIY are the future Tokead and Larry 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 7 hours ago, terminaldisclaimer said: I know they have. But if they had a plan to loosen the requirements, you think they would state that now? I think we can all agree they wouldn't. Probably not, but they wouldn't clearly have stated the exact opposite. 7 hours ago, terminaldisclaimer said: But that won't change the fact that the dealers are going to face significantly increased competition. What fact? That's speculation, as we've got no information to go on at this point. I get it, it may cause more companies to be exposed to the option, and yes they could become competition. But even if we follow that line of reasoning, that doesn't mean that much would change for the 'dealer group' as a whole at all - it could just weed out the worst, and introduce new capable people. Quite the opposite of the doom scenario some seem to want to paint on here that it would ruin C4's reputation. But it's all still just based on speculation. 7 hours ago, terminaldisclaimer said: my prediction is at least a reasonable likelihood. It's a prediction based on lack of information - doesn't mean you may not be correct in the end, but so could a fortune teller at the fair. 7 hours ago, terminaldisclaimer said: I would have some contingencies in place Any small business owner should. Always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminaldisclaimer Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 13 hours ago, Cyknight said: It's a prediction based on lack of information - doesn't mean you may not be correct in the end, but so could a fortune teller at the fair. It's not based on a total lack of information. First, it's based on the idea that SnapAV bought Control4 to presumably increase its value. While I'll concede that is not a "fact"--I think we can all agree that it is true. A pretty obvious way to for SnapAV to increase the value of Control4 would be to expand the dealer base. It's also based on the fact that SnapAV has its own dealer constituency to deal with, many of which are likely going to want access to Control4 equipment. Finally, on a related note, it's based on the fact that SnapAV is by its nature a distributor. Don't you think it would be odd for a distributor to buy a product, and then not distribute it to its entire dealer base? 13 hours ago, Cyknight said: Probably not, but they wouldn't clearly have stated the exact opposite. 21 hours ago, terminaldisclaimer said: Control4 is going to say whatever they need to say to (1) keep their dealers from jumping ship; and (2) not cause the deal to fall through. 14 hours ago, Cyknight said: What fact? That's speculation, as we've got no information to go on at this point. I get it, it may cause more companies to be exposed to the option, and yes they could become competition. But even if we follow that line of reasoning, that doesn't mean that much would change for the 'dealer group' as a whole at all - it could just weed out the worst, and introduce new capable people. Quite the opposite of the doom scenario some seem to want to paint on here that it would ruin C4's reputation. I don't follow your logic here. If the dealer base expands, then naturally all dealers will face increased competition. I think that is a basic economic concept. Even if you compete only in higher market segments, there will still be a domino effect. For example, say dealer A only does high-end installs. And Dealer B does high end installs and small installs. Enter dealer C who competes against Dealer B on small installs, and wins some of those deals. How is Dealer B to make up for that lost revenue? Well presumably, now that Dealer B has lost revenue from small jobs, he will try to make it up by competing harder on high-end installs? Result: Dealer A and B likely lose money. 13 hours ago, Cyknight said: It's a prediction based on lack of information - doesn't mean you may not be correct in the end, but so could a fortune teller at the fair. I'll concede it's a guess because I don't work for SnapAV or Control4, and thus I'm not privy to their internal thinking. But it's an educated guess. I wouldn't equate that to a fortune teller. Finally, and most importantly: I see you are not willing to take me up on my bet! Just kidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Africa C4 user Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 On 6/20/2019 at 12:55 PM, msgreenf said: Why do you bold words that you don't mean? Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk Cos that’s what Wap does... Quack! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Africa C4 user Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 19 hours ago, knowitall said: A lot of good points in this thread. C4 tried to take over the “highend” residential market, which is a small percentage of the world. (See selling to people in limos comment) Programming a C4 system used to be an art form they dumbed it down just enough but not enough to be DIY, which is the biggest issue imo- way too many “dealers” that don’t have the skill or care to do it right Video distribution is dead. People were not as savvy, now people want to DIY. So Control4 has two things left lighting and audio, and whole house audio is a hard sell these days why spend all that $$$$ when you can get a $50 streaming box? Costs much more than that to prewire a zone and put up some brackets lighting is left. But I bought 15 lighting devices in 2014, don’t need anymore. So I am a customer but not a recurring one. Long story short, their business model is setup for failure, and its failing due to the dealers who are not selling the solution properly, doing a half-assed job at install, and leaving clients hung out to dry when support is needed. IoT and DIY are the future I often agree with you... but not this time. I think Control4 offers a lot more than lighting and audio... I use it for a whole host of other things and have no desire to change... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 3 hours ago, terminaldisclaimer said: It's not based on a total lack of information. First, it's based on the idea that SnapAV bought Control4 to presumably increase its value. While I'll concede that is not a "fact"--I think we can all agree that it is true. A pretty obvious way to for SnapAV to increase the value of Control4 would be to expand the dealer base. It's also based on the fact that SnapAV has its own dealer constituency to deal with, many of which are likely going to want access to Control4 equipment. Finally, on a related note, it's based on the fact that SnapAV is by its nature a distributor. Don't you think it would be odd for a distributor to buy a product, and then not distribute it to its entire dealer base? And what is Snap's current (direct) distribution area? One could project Snap got C4 in part to expand it's own distribution to a large group of people that currently do NOT have access to their equipment, or through a 3rd party that jacks up the prices. One could also argue that SNAP bought C4 to increase SNAP's value. Another one - C4 sold itself in an underhand deal for no other reason than to get off the stock market, and while SNAP's CEO will run the merged company, C4's is running the internal affairs from the board of directors. Oh and here's one - the investment's company that basically OWNS snap want to make more money, and see C4 as a possible source of revenue. Could keep coming up with other scenarios, but I hope the point is obvious - it's speculation, conjecture and guess work. Quote A pretty obvious way to for SnapAV to increase the value of Control4 would be to expand the dealer base Is it? More dealers does not by default mean more sales. Quote It's also based on the fact that SnapAV has its own dealer constituency to deal with, many of which are likely going to want access to Control4 equipment Do they? Does a Crestron dealer want to start doing Control4? While the first is an obvious fact, the second is assumption. Having a lawn means cutting grass, so of course there's going to be a hedge to prune. 3 hours ago, terminaldisclaimer said: I don't follow your logic here. If the dealer base expands, then naturally all dealers will face increased competition. I think that is a basic economic concept. Even if you compete only in higher market segments, there will still be a domino effect. For example, say dealer A only does high-end installs. And Dealer B does high end installs and small installs. Enter dealer C who competes against Dealer B on small installs, and wins some of those deals. How is Dealer B to make up for that lost revenue? Well presumably, now that Dealer B has lost revenue from small jobs, he will try to make it up by competing harder on high-end installs? Result: Dealer A and B likely lose money. More dealers can also mean more exposure, leading to more sales - see your own argument above in increasing value. Plus you're assuming the market is saturated - and thus more sales points means less sales per sales point. If that were the case, increasing the number of dealers would HURT, in the end, Control4 and SNAP and goes against your own argument that increasing dealers would increase value. You're contradicting your own arguments here. Not to mention that I was talking about the landscape as a whole, not just three dealers in one area. 3 hours ago, terminaldisclaimer said: I see you are not willing to take me up on my bet! Just kidding. Only because I don't gamble - ever. Well that, and I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that you're making some HUGE leaps in your reasoning and presenting it as fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 11 minutes ago, C4junkie said: Sorry to say old chap, but the game's up on Pro Yes, because one closed dealer only company took over another closed dealer only company, all products will now be free and available directly to everyone. Now THAT'S some solid reasoning WAP. msgreenf and South Africa C4 user 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 lol, now this is too much. Betting on the Pro market dying is like thinking computer repair shops would go out of business. And yet there are Apple Stores everywhere where everyone goes to get their devices fixed when they fail... DIY is a fad and will become a dead art just like people fixing furniture and appliances they purchase. Most people specialize and pay specialists when they want something done. Or it gets legislated, like certified electricians and a fine for doing it yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcovach Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 13 minutes ago, C4junkie said: Anyway gotta fly chaps....Got another non C4 Zigbee DIY light switch to install...the nice folks down at Amazon sent it to me for $29.95 with free postage! It'll be up and running using the Alexa app in no time... Better run before the whippin', and the houndin', the bullyin' and the blamin' starts again.. You naughty naughty DIY HA enthusiasts. How dare you!!!! Cheerio! Pip PIp!!! Are you on this forum yet? https://www.amazonforum.com/forums/devices/echo-alexa Lots of DIY support for your new automation system over there..... msgreenf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casperspooks Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 This thread is more boring and nonsensical than one of those Housewives shows. What an echo chamber Sent using Tapatalk msgreenf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blub Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 Facts are:Control4 sold itsself because the expectations for revenue, growth and likely so market share were not met and not achievable in the future - otherwise they wouldn't have sold. So from a simple business aspect their business model failed - that really is a fact. The business was based on A - dealer onlyB - revenue largely based on hardware salesSo everyone can do what he wants from that but keep going like that isn't going to turn the boat around will likely lead to a slow death of the platform. Well. Let's see what happens. I hope the platform doesn't die cause it's pretty good... therockhr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Africa C4 user Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 I’m not convinced that the sale implies the model failed... They sold it for a pretty penny, many would see that as success, not failure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blub Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 I’m not convinced that the sale implies the model failed... They sold it for a pretty penny, many would see that as success, not failure!OK, then please give some good reasons why they sold and had such a hard time to find a buyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 7 minutes ago, blub said: 14 hours ago, South Africa C4 user said: I’m not convinced that the sale implies the model failed... They sold it for a pretty penny, many would see that as success, not failure! OK, then please give some good reasons why they sold and had such a hard time to find a buyer. Maybe they wanted to? And with how many IoT devices are sold direct to consumers, I'm sure some potential buyers were blinded by the direct IoT model's success and couldn't understand why dealers and professional installers are needed. Installing C4 is a lot more complex than getting an Amazon Echo and adding Philips Hue lights along with Sonos and a FireTV. Or using Apple Homekit, or Google Assistant. Have you also wondered if the potential buyers were listed, but the real reason is that C4 and SnapAV wanted to merge anyways and the others were listed just to be listed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 But that goes back to the statement that nobody knows why and all statements are pure speculation. The most that can be done now is wonder what will happen in the future with the mix of SnapAV and C4 and how that impacts dealers and customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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